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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Unresolved Paperweight Questions => Topic started by: tropdevin on April 30, 2008, 07:18:29 PM

Title: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: tropdevin on April 30, 2008, 07:18:29 PM
I found this paperweight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=200220543555&item=200220543555) for sale, and wondered whether it was Paul Ysart or not. I love the description 'wobbly', though I am not sure what it refers to.

Alan
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: Frank on April 30, 2008, 07:45:46 PM
A lot of these badge weights have a very rough and proud pontil scar and no relation to Paul Ysart, Kevin recently discussed these in another thread here...
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20728.0.html
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: KevinH on April 30, 2008, 11:44:07 PM
I have great difficulty in deciding anything about many of these badge weights. Base finishes with a proud / wobbly pontil area seem to be quite common. In the past, I would have said these were not by Paul Ysart simply because of the way the base was finished. My feeling is that "wobbly" pontil lumps were more common on "German" gift-type weights - since I have seen similar finishes on large weights that have been said to be "German" (or late "Bohemian").

But I am now not so sure of that any more. Or of anything when it comes to badge weights ::)

It would be great if somebody could provide definite information on the charateristics of these weights by other known makers.
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: alexander on May 01, 2008, 12:04:13 AM
Are there samples of known PY badge weights? Ones that we can be pretty sure of the attribution?

I keep hoping to find one with a cane or even parts of a cane that can be said to be scottish - time will tell I guess  :)

Maybe the color schemes may indicate a country of origin - I see pedestaled weights sold from Belgium from time
to time on ebay that appear to use a pastel/pink/white scheme - some with decorations to indicate a
french speaking origin.  Can't find any right now tho.
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: KevinH on May 01, 2008, 12:48:04 AM
Quote
Are there samples of known PY badge weights?
I don't know of any that can be 100%, beyond any doubt, attributed to Paul Ysart! Can anyone reading this (a dealer, perhaps) confirm otherwise?

However, I have a stemmed and footed version and the shape of the foot and stem does look quite like that on a confirmed Paul Ysart weight that I have seen in literature somewhere. Can't think where that is though, right now. But similar stems and feet, without particular features, may appear on items from various makers.
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: Frank on May 01, 2008, 09:22:40 AM
Did anyone ask Paul Ysart about these? No mention in Alison's article which was primarily based on interviews. Is Simmond's the first mention in print, has anyone asked him his source?
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: tropdevin on May 02, 2008, 01:15:23 PM
This stemmed and footed (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=140229552712&item=140229552712) weight with a sulphide of St Hubert is virtually certainly Belgian.  The description of the two pontil marks sounds just like the similar badge weight that are sometimes attributed to Paul Ysart, but I guess the manufacturing process is standard.

Alan
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: daveweight on May 02, 2008, 05:12:27 PM
I have a letter from Colin Terris in which he told me Paul Ysart confirmed he made these badge weights and sold them all out of the back door at Moncrieff's Glassworks. Colin also recalls that servicemen would take a badge to Paul and few a few pennies he would put it in a weight.
I personally have never seen any evidence that badge weights, containing badges from British Regiments, were made by anyone other that Paul. Can we sometimes be too clevere ?
Dave
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: Andy on May 03, 2008, 01:40:43 PM
The knowledge of the paperweight collectors on here is very impressive :clap:
But saying about being too clever, i would think 'wobbly' in this instance, just means it
doesnt sit flat on the table and wobbles a bit ;)

regards
Andy 8)
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: daveweight on May 03, 2008, 07:18:39 PM
I agree with ALexander that it would be great to find a signed badge weight or even one with canes in that could be identified and attributed to an artist but I have never seen one.
The closest I can get is a Vasart weight I have containing a brass badge of the Arms of Perth set on a pale blue base with canes running round the perimeter
Dave
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: tropdevin on May 03, 2008, 09:12:06 PM
Can we sometimes be too clevere ?
Dave

I fear we are rarely clever enough, any of us....we tend to believe what people tell us, and what authors write, even when there is little or no evidence. "So and so said this in his book, so it must be right...". The more I carry out research into various paperweight related topics, the more I find that the accepted wisdom is based on hearsay and speculation, rather than evidence. That makes me sad: as a doctorate physicist, I am a firm believer in evidence based research, and sound, logical arguments based on facts.  Of course we need ideas, speculation, theories - that is how we make progress - but we should not substitute these for facts.

We need to keep an open mind on many aspects of paperweight production, where we do not have the detailed evidence. Just remember some of the past errors: the existence of Bristol and Nailsea paperweights; the 'London maker named Islington';  'No paperweights ever made in Stourbridge' (Hollister); and the attribution "Antique Whitefriars dated 1848" still appears in the catalogues of reputable dealers.

No - we are certainly not too clever....

Alan
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: Frank on May 03, 2008, 09:44:32 PM
Well, we do have reasonable evidence that Paul Ysart told Colin Terris about making these badge weights. I would consider that as a reasonably reliable hearsay, but it does not tell us anything about the weight in question.

I also bought one of these a few years ago and at that time they were appearing with great frequency on eBay mostly from Scotland, too great a frequency for PY weights in my opinion. There is a dealer who has over the last 20+ years had made or altered a large number of items to misrepresent them as the work of the Ysart's. He has also sold work of various glassmakers as being Ysart. Miniature 'sample' glassware that were actually made in London, PY fake weights, altered Perthshire Paperweight Tulip lamps to sell as Vasart, ground down Strathearn seals and added a basal ring to pass of as Monart/Vasart, fake book of Monart colour recipes, several sets of Ysart family glass tools, other faked ephemera.

My weight does not seem right for PY compared to others, why would his standards have slipped for these? Other glass he made during the war and before the restart of Monart production did not show and slippage in his standards and by then paperweights were central to his choice of work.

I also find it highly unlikely that there was only one person doing this, during and at the end of the war there would have been economic chaos in many places across Europe and glassmakers needing to buy food. That Belgium has been raised with a stylistically similar example, combined with mentions of Belgium in relation to badge weights in the past, makes it a likely second source. Evidence could be concealed by language.

I would not be surprised if all of the following are true, but none proven.

1. Paul Ysart made some badge weights.
2. Other glassmakers in Europe made badge weights.
3. Somebody made a batch of badge weights in recent years.
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: tropdevin on May 04, 2008, 05:20:54 AM
Hi Frank

Your conclusions makes good sense to me.

Alan
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: tropdevin on May 14, 2008, 05:15:54 PM
Here is another  (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=220234824341&item=220234824341) badge weight - looks like an Ysart style pontil. Don't know why the seller has settled on that date though.

Alan
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: alexander on May 14, 2008, 09:13:46 PM
I noticed this one too  :)

It looks like it has a serious annealing crack.

Some grinding to the base which is different from the presumably french/belgian footed sulphides. :)

I suspect a lot of badge weights get a date based on when the badge was in comission,
even if you could go to any antique shop today and pick up old badges to put in weights.

How does the colors of the frit compare to colors PY would have used or had access to? 

I wonder - should we try to catalogue as many of these as we can for comparison and research reasons?
Title: Re: Wobbly Ysart paperweight ID - help please Kev H!
Post by: Frank on May 15, 2008, 09:46:07 AM
It looks like it is a sulphide rather than actual badge. Perhaps the badge used dates to/from 1900.