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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: jamalpa36 on August 11, 2011, 01:26:32 PM

Title: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: jamalpa36 on August 11, 2011, 01:26:32 PM
Hi all

Any thoughts on age of this Ysart

Roy
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: jamalpa36 on August 11, 2011, 01:39:44 PM
Side view
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: jamalpa36 on August 11, 2011, 01:41:18 PM
Bottom view
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: SophieB on August 11, 2011, 01:48:30 PM
Hi Roy,

I recognise this one. I nearly bid on it  ;D... Well done  :hiclp: Nice weight...

You know a lot more about Ysarts' than me; but I will try my burgeoning skills...

For what it is worth I thought at first that it was pre-war Moncrieff (because of the general look of the weight and the large canes on the outside) but on second thoughts, it could be later: the cane in the closepack centre reminded me of post-war Moncrieff weights. So definitely Moncrieff period and on balance post-war.

I wonder what KevH will say...

Sophie

Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: KevinH on August 11, 2011, 10:03:24 PM
I say ... I don't know. The general look of it strongly indicates Moncrieff years, but is it pre- or post-war? Could be either.

I have one that I guess is from the same time as Roy's. It is shown at Row 2, Column 4 (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/catalog/py-concentric.htm) in one of my catalogue pages. It's only a smallish image and there are no other views of it as yet. It has what looks like the same green-white jasper ground as Roy's, and it does not have "dark glass" to the dome. That's one of my reasons for stating on the web page that it's 1940s/50s. However ...

... It has a snapped off pontil scar, with "crunchy bits", and that would lead many folk to think it must be 1930s. And perhaps it is, but just happens to be a "brighter" example. There is something unique (to me) about the weight, though. As well as an indented, snapped off pontil mark, it has overall smooth, but unpolished grinding to the base! Make of that what you will.

One other thing about my weight ... it was one of the first I ever bought and it was covered in scratches and marks such that the dome was extremely dull. It was only later, when I found out that it was by Paul Ysart, that I thought about getting it cleaned up, which I did (by Bob Hall) many years afterwards. When it was cleaned, I was amazed at the crispness of the colours when compared to most of my other PY "1930s" weights. And I only paid £20 for it in an auction in Birmingham, and I only bought it because nobody else wanted it!
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: tropdevin on August 12, 2011, 08:46:20 AM
***

I had a Paul Ysart with a fairly similar green ground, and had assumed it was 1940s / 1950s - but for no very strong reason other than the base finish, and that the glass, though tinged, was not as dark or 'purply' as some 1930s weights. Images below.

Alan

(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_1677.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view&current=1677.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_1677d.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view&current=1677d.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_1677b.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view&current=1677b.jpg)
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: alpha on August 12, 2011, 12:46:03 PM
My thoughts on Roy's piece are that the canes in the outside ring are much earlier than the canes in the central medallion.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: SophieB on August 12, 2011, 02:42:21 PM
Yeeees! Exactly what I thought!!

It is nice to know that I am starting to get the hang of this ID/age of paperweight lark/stuff... (sorry for this burst of enthusiasm)

May be, Paul Ysart made the weight in the late Moncrieff period but used the 'left-over/earlier' outside canes to complete the set-up.

Sophie
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: tropdevin on August 12, 2011, 03:08:10 PM
***

I think it is always worth remembering what Kevin wrote some time ago on one of his web pages:

From study of various Paul Ysart and Vasart/Salvador Ysart weights, it is clear that canes of a similar structure and colouring have sometimes been used by both Paul and the other members of the family. Whether some of these canes are truly exact matches, indicating a definite sharing (or borrowing?) of canes, is not certain. However, it does seem plausible that canes made during the 1930s period could have been used by both Salvador and Paul - even though there was a known difficulty between them. If this idea is correct, then it may also be true that such canes continued to be used by both, at least for a short time, after the family split and "Ysart Brothers Glass" (Vasart) was formed.

What Kevin was suggesting was that Ysart canes from the 1930s might well have continued to be used until the 1950s or later. I think the more weights we see, the more that appears to be true.

Alan
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: KevinH on August 12, 2011, 04:17:17 PM
[Mod: This post has been edited to remove comments and references relating to presentations and articles that have been produced, or may be published in the future. The remainder of the text has been tidied up to keep it brief and to the point. Subsequent posts referring to future possible publication of articles have also been removed, together with some later posts that do not add to the actual subject under discussion.]

As soon as I became seriously interest in Ysart weights and began analysing the canes and general features, I have emphasised that we need to use lots of "ifs", "buts" and "maybes".

I can confirm that some canes can be seen in Paul Ysart's work across all of his main periods of operation. It is not very surprising that many of his weights contan a mix of "old" and "new" canes.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: Roger H on August 13, 2011, 11:08:24 PM
   Just to throw a spanner in the works(sorry) it looks a bit squashy for a Paul Ysart post war era. Could it be a post war Ysart weight? thinking about the glass colour also. Roger.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight
Post by: KevinH on August 18, 2011, 12:59:58 AM
Roger, which parts do you think look "squashy"? Just the larger outer canes, or other parts, too?

It is reasonable to use the general look of a weight to help assess its age. Indeed, there are some Paul Ysart weights that almost shout "pre-war" just because of the look of the design and the size of the elements. But if just one feature appears out of keeping with the rest, then it becomes more of an interesting clue rather than a major pointer.

I stand by my initial comment that I do not know for sure whether Roy's weight is pre- or post-war. If I was able to replicate Colin Mahoney's findings (and also a comment made by John Simmonds in his book) about UV analysis separating pre- and post-war Paul Ysart work, then I would visit Roy and settle the matter. But as yet, I have not proven that type of uv difference across my own weights.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: Roger H on August 18, 2011, 09:16:25 PM
 Hi,the outside canes seem pretty good but early, apart from the radial spirals which seem to be early, un-neat lengths and certainly not late PY accuracy. The centre block of canes are in general a bit squashy and untidy for late PY, the radial twists virtually touching some but then not all of the central block.
    With regard to the glass colour its quite clear compared to pre-war weights,indicating late 1940s and 1950s.
        So is it a very good salvador or is it a quite early PY with a clearer glass than was available at Moncrieffs at the time.  Dilema!!!!!            ROY of course did not say PYsart but YSART. Roger H.
          By the way ,I have spent time with the short and long wave UV identification but only find it usefull in the broader sense of different era's of batch mixes. The natural eye ID of glass tint is still very good. Roger H.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: KevinH on August 19, 2011, 05:49:37 PM
Thanks for those comments Roger. I think we need some more clarification.

All of my comments in this thread are in the context of one of my initial points: "... strongly indicates Moncrieff years, but is it pre- or post-war?" But what do you mean by "early" and late" in the context of your points? And do you believe that Paul Ysart's post-war work at Moncrieff's (i.e. 1946 to 1961/2) never had any untidiness"?

Your sentence: "So is it a very good salvador or is it a quite early PY with a clearer glass than was available at Moncrieffs at the time.", makes little sense to me! How could there have been "a clearer glass ... than available"? Available to whom? And at what time?

As for whether it was made by Salvador Ysart, I have never seen a weight of a similar pattern that has other features strongly suggesting Salvador's work. Also, the way the canes are set into the ground is very typical of Paul Ysart's style but even the tidiest of Salvador's work shows the canes appearing slightly proud of the ground. Also, I have never seen a jasper ground in any likely Salvador weight - many powdered grounds, but not the white-and-coloured jasper that Paul used throughout his career.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: Roger H on August 19, 2011, 07:27:40 PM
  Gooday,by early and late I mean Moncrieff pre or post war. I understand there may have been 2 or 3 batch composition changes in this time period.
 As to never having any post war untidiness I can only bow to your superior knowledge on the subject but the ones I have seen seem pretty good to me. Why would a man who took pride in his abilities to make a good central pick up of the arranged canes let slide on occasions?
 To your 3rd paragraph: the clearer glass was not available to Moncrieffs early weights and that was the point I was making, although you do say there are clearish weights that seem to be of an early period I believe?? I find that odd or perhaps just an anomoly that cannot be explained.
   As for paragraph 4: You have me there. I will put a weight on which I believe to be Pauls standard for the 1950s.
             Regards Roger
Title: Re: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: KevinH on August 22, 2011, 12:20:32 AM
That is a good weight; clear, clean & crisp-looking. (Good photos, too.) But there is a "fault"!

The inner ring of red-white canes has only one which is the "proper" shape, the rest are "squashed" in a variety of ways. Clearly, for the overall look of the weight, that "fault" does not detract too much. And it was just an accident of the way most of those particular canes reacted during the working. It was not so much of a problem that the weight should not be put out to the market.

It is an example of a weight that has good features but a small area of lesser quality. And that, I think applies to many Paul Ysart weights throughout his Moncrieff period. I do not believe there was a time when suddenly he got everything right and never had a problem thereafter. There are lots of examples of apparently pre-war period PY weights that have very little, if any, defects in the working - except for the "darkened glass" of the dome. And there are many apparently post-war Moncrieff examples that have clear glass domes but have an "error" somewhere.

So I tend to think that a dividing line, such as pre- and post-war periods, marking different quality levels does not really exist. More likely that there was steady progress and improvement across all those years but, on occasion, some weights, even though good enough for the market at the time, did not show the absolute best quality.
Title: Re: Ysart Weight - a question of age
Post by: Roger H on August 22, 2011, 09:04:12 PM
       Hi, Yes I noticed the odd perfect cane of course when I bought the weight off somebody you know very well. The price was correct so no problem. It a shame they were not all squashed ,it would have looked even better.
        Reading through your reply I guess all things are about as accurate an explanation as possible. The graph, quality against time frame, cannot be an exact straight line, its rather curvy. Thanks for the discussion, I would imagine several PY enthusiasts would have been keenly following along. Regards Roger H.