Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: bigbri on October 08, 2012, 10:23:41 AM
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hello board.....
i purchased these on the weekend because they felt so nice in the hand.made in 3 pieces with bowl stem and foot.they are beautiful but i know bristol blue is still being made now but these look and feel period but i would like someone to agree or not as the case maybe.lovely shape too.
happy hunting...
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I dont know the answer but contemporary Bristol Blue glass is normally hand signed on the base Bristol as far as I know.
m
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it is indeed - the word written as Bristol with what seems to be a dremel type tool. The only piece I have from the 'Bristol Blue factory' is a milk jug, and without that signature there could be confusion since the handle is applied in pre 1860 style and the blue is very good with a snapped pontil - although as you'd imagine it lacks appropriate wear for a genuine period piece.
On your rummers I'm seeing snapped pontils and what appears to be plenty of wear on the feet, quite convincing features, plus I'm thinking these have possibly one of the rarer rummer bowl shapes of what looks like a double ogee.
However, have to remember that Thomas Webb produced a bristol blue range in the late 1970's (although all the pieces of theirs I have show a ground/polished pontil depression) - although from memory not all Webb material is signed. Much earlier in the C20 Hill Ouston were also offering period glass (including rummers), and they certainly offered blue, but I don't know if their pieces carry any sort of signature. When flicked, do yours produce a good 'ring'?
It is often suggested that one of the clues for testing for age in glasses is to compare the diameter of the foot with the same dimension of the rim - the theory being that if the foot is the same, or exceeds that of the rim, then it should be period.
Unfortunately, foot wear is not guarantee of age. Hajdamach quotes a source who relates that in Stourbridge a retired glassmaker was actually paid to sit on the front doorstep of the factory and grind the feet of wineglasses to produce the necessary 'period' wear!!
Sorry not to be of help, but nonetheless nice glasses, and if you didn't pay much then you have a bargain. :)
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Hello.
They do have a snapped pontil and they ring like a bell.im sure they are period and the quality is right.i cannot find the shape of the bowl on any other runners period or new so it's another thing to search out but I did buy them with the flower dumps I have posted so I think we're onto a winner and your right at the price I paid they were a snip.
Happy hunting.
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the double ogee seems to be found only rarely on drinking glasses, and is not a shape seen in many of the books. Found less common on wines apparently, but perhaps a tad more frequent on rummers maybe (just my opinion). A shape which may have its origins in monteiths/bonnet glasses and some of the pan topped sweetmeat glasses from the C18.
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hello Paul.
just when you think you have enough reference books you need some more.so with all that there is a good chance with the style shape good colour snapped pontil and beautiful random wear to the bases that these are "georgian bristol blue rummers with rarish double ogee form".sounds really good when you say it like that.........:) happy hunting.
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sorry to be a coward, but I'm not going to commit myself and join you in saying they are Georgian beyond doubt - just that they seem to have the right attributes for being possibly late Georgian;) Had hoped Peter might look in and comment on these. It would seem that 99% of rummers were in clear glass - with only a very few being coloured, and those being produced more towards the end of the Georgian period.
Regret I don't know anywhere near enough about some of these glasses.
Don't know what books you have - certainly I'd usually turn to Bickerton, but on this occasion he is rather quiet, and offers very little information on what we might call the 'bristol' colours i.e. blue, green, amethyst which were made from early in the C18. Almost all of the double ogee shaped bowls shown in Bickerton are for sweetmeats of one kind or another, with a few champagnes and the odd bonnet glass (for confectionery) - to the best of my knowledge he shows nothing in the way of rummers with this shape. My information came from Elville and Miller's Antique Check List (Mark West).
I'd agree about books - there seems always to be something I don't have.
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Hi.
It's never easy on the end of a pic to be certain and you have no way been a coward at least you have had something to say and I value that immensely.im hoping the old glass man has an opinion he seems to know his glasses so I will wait and see if there are anymore opinions.
I'm thinking of keeping them and drinking some nice red from them might just improve the flavour.
Happy hunting.
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Hi, just while we wait for Peter to comment, can you let us know what age there is to the foot rims, bowl rims and to the outside of the glasses? It is easier to fake a period piece than to fake the ageing process. From the pictures I can't see much age on the rims, but that could just be the photography. Also there doesn't appear to be much if any striation or other toolmarks in the bowls. Again that could just be the photography.
There have been "Bristol" Blue goblets and rummers made since the 18th century by a lot of glasshouses, not just the current Bristol Blue company. I've personally made mistakes in dating such glasses before.
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hello Neil.
there are tool marks and striations all over both goblets esp around the lower 3rd of the bowl where the glass has been worked and to the base where the stem is attached.also there are the odd dimples in the bowls.there is also some rim wear with odd scratches,the foot has alot of wear to the touching surfaces which looks genuine as its totally different on both goblets as they obv touch the surfaces dfferently.the also appears to be a ridge or flattened area to the outside edge of the foot all around as you can see in the pics which i thought might be a folded foot.the more i handle the more im loving them.hopefully the man who knows will be along soon.
happy hunting.
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from the pix, I think we can discount a folded foot on these :) It is probably also a truism that the older the glass the more likely it is to sit on the very outside of the foot (domed feet were a consequence of the early snapped pontils). Feet had started to become flatter towards the end of the C18 due to the removal by grinding, of the rough pontil mark, and they became flatter still as you progress through the C19. I've also seen several comments - when referring to blue glasses that C18 material should be quite heavy and thick.
Don't think that period glasses of these type and colour could be earlier than 1800 - 1820 in any event.
In view of Nigel's comments elsewhere today, I'll take a chance and quote from Miller's Glass Antiques Checklist (consultant Mark West). Again, with particular regard to blue glass, it is stated that.........
"Blue drinking glasses should be treated with caution as a large number of these were made during the first half of the 20thC. Generally these glasses are larger than the older ones, have unusual shapes, and a very thin metal (glass body). They do, however, have snapped-off pontils which can be confusing"
copyright 1994 Reed International Books Limited. I'd suggest this as a useful and reasonably easy quick reference book.
Coming back to the formation and shape of the foot - the wider the better is probably a good maxim - early C19 hand made feet were less delicate, slightly thicker on the edge and quite likely not truly circular ) good description of the process in Wilkinson). The alternative - the blown foot - should produce a much sharper edge due to the curvature of the top of the foot coming down to meet the flat of the underside (Skelcher goes into all three types of feet - hand made and mould blown).
The moulded foot shows a much neater and symentrically rounded profile of the edge.
I wonder if these are in fact early C20, and from a factory like Hill Ouston for example - none of which lessens their interest, I'd certainly like to own them :)
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HI ,
Yes I have been lurking ,for the reason that it seems I have recently always been the bearer of bad news so was waiting to see what else was said ,
Anyway my opinion of these ,which would seem to be that of most people I know is that at best these types are late 19thc and probably even 20th century,examples by webb and S&W are known, they are of course made in an earlier style with snapped pontils folded feet etc but this only shows that they are hand made not necessarily 18th c ,18th cobalt blue glasses are very few and far between and I have certainly never seen a rummer that was considered to be a Georgian example , even late Georgian , the thoughts are that these rummer type glasses were made in many places including England ,Continental Europe and America in the very 19th and 20th centuries,
I have attached a couple of photos of examples I have, both of which have many characteristics of 18thc glasses , the goblet is 10 is tall a hollow stem and folded foot , very late 19thc at best i think , the open flame lamp I think shows a similar attachment to the bowl at the top of the stem ,this I am told by a friend is almost certainly an American oil lamp from the late 19th century , it has wear on the foot that would suggest 300 years of use !!!
there we go , you did ask !!!
cheers ,
Peter.
just noticed the crossed posts Paul ,looks like we got there .
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Hello both.
Thanks for the reply its been very interesting,and in my opinion no knowledge is bad news either positive or negative its all good.........further to your thoughts the glass is thick and very heavy and the base wear is to the edge but as stated that might just be to the construction of the foot.
What about the shape.i cannot find it anywhere on any blue rummer from any period........do you have a thread or a lead I could follow up on this or any info on which of the 20 th century factories made this shape I would of though there catalogues would have the shapes as said I can't find any and there must be duplicates out there ESP if they are by s/w or webb or similar.
Happy hunting.
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regret to say that like most people who collect drinking glasses you are destined to always have a few which will remain of doubtful origin and/or date. Those who collect C20 signed studio glass don't know how lucky they are - but then they miss out on all the wonderful history. ;)
Don't know which books you have, but I notice that in Hajdamach's 'British Glass 1800 - 1914 - under reproductions etc. - there is an example of a wineglass which might represent a typical source from which your rummers had originated. Admittedly the colour is amethyst (all the more desirable - they didn't go in for half measures, so it appeals to the greed in all of us ;)) but the shape is very close, and the caption says.........
"wineglass made by L. & S. Hingley, Wordsley, early C20, height 4.7/8" - rough pontil mark and capstan shape stem etc."
Obviously copying an early C19 glass, and doubtless would confuse most people, unless the lack of wear and excessively rare bowl shape rang alarm bells. If it looks too good to be true - it probably is.
Around 1900 Richardsons were offering very accurate copies of George III cut glass patterns - although I don't know if their efforts extended to drinking glasses.
Hill Ouston appear to have been copying just about everything from air twist spiral drawn stems and cordials of the 1740's to thumb cut ales of the 1860's.
All of which is a good reason to buy books and try to handle as much material as possible, and when buying remember all the golden rules, colour, foot/rim proportions, wear, stones/bubbles, weight etc.
Very unlikely you'll be able to attribute a maker to yours - might have been one of a number of sources - Continental perhaps - attached is another blue rummer - snapped pontil etc., some good signs of wear, shape typical of early C19 and rings like you wouldn't believe - but as to origin I've no idea, and a reproduction I suspect.? But the searching is always good fun. :)
I'd recommend both of the Hajdamach volumes if you don't already have them - plus Bickerton for C18/Regency drinking glasses.
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hi again.
i will look into those books as i love books and knowledge.i have hundreds of books and you have to stop somewhere but the where is the question ;)
my glasses are then a mystery but i still have my doubts they are 20th century but i do bow to yours and the old glass mans knowledge its certainly greater than mine in the field but something tells me they are earlier prob due to the source of them and the dealer instinct but they are still very nice items and as of yet no one has managed to show me a similar shape one in any colour,yours is similar but no double knopped stem and the bowl is different but i will keep hunting.
if your up in the lakes give me a buzz you can come and feel them for yourself.
thanks greatly for your time and your sharing.
happy hunting :)
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many thanks for your friendly and generous offer - am sure you will enjoy the books :)