Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: Leni on April 17, 2008, 08:22:05 AM
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The recent questions about decanters reminded me about these cut glass decanters. May I try again to get an ID for them? I posted them here a year ago, but didn't get a single response :cry: And they haven't appeared in the Unresolved forum either :'(
We saw one of them in a display outside an antique shop, and noticed it was badly chipped on the neck and the foot, but it still looked to be very beautiful cutting. When we went into the shop we saw the other decanter of the pair, which was perfect! We asked the price of that one, and were delighted when the seller 'threw in' (not literally, thank goodness!) the damaged one!
Someone has suggested that they look a bit like the Richardson design shown in Hajdamach which was made for the Crystal Palace exhibition, while I found a Webb pattern no. 12140 which (to me) looks like similar cutting :huh:
Any of our cut glass experts have any idea?
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Leni — Decanters are tricky, expensively manufactured in quantity for the middle classes following the Victorian lifestyle rule books, and just not really used that much today. I've still got two or three photocopied sheets from the Percival Vickers pattern books of decanter patterns that the late Tom Percival gave me, asking me to find him just one, without success. And the whole collecting field made so much more difficult by decades of mix-and-match merchants treating their customers with contempt.
I'm sure I looked up your decanters last time around — with no luck. Have you checked Glen's Sowerby CD's?
It won't help much with attribution, but have you checked whether your decanters were made like English Rock Crystal, cut from a thick blank, or whether those gadroons were started by being mould-blown. Check the inside with something that won't scratch.
Bernard C. 8)
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Definitely cut from a very thick, heavy blank rather than mould-blown, Bernard! It was actually the discussion on moulds versus cutting that reminded me of these decanters, because the clear panels are actually very rounded, almost like the 'bosses' being discussed in the skeleton mould thread, but elongated.
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Very impressive decanters!!! Nice find! I don't know much about British rich cut glass, and it's hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like the cutting on these isn't super deep. That suggests to me that they were made before the "Brilliant Period" of the late 19th and early 20th C, when power-generated wheels came into use and enabled deeper cutting.
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...I mean the fine pattern cutting isn't very deep, not that there wasn't a lot of glass cut away. Larger, flatter cuts could be done with a large diameter wheel, the cutting speed of which was easier to keep up with a treadle than small wheels - or at least that's what I surmise. The material the wheels were made of may have played a role, too.
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Actually, it's just the poor photography, Kristi :-[ The cutting is really very deep! The stars on the 'belly' of the decanter stand out about 3/8ths of an inch! And the glass is really very thick. Even the stoppers, in spite of appearing to be hollow-blown, with a bubble in the centre, weigh 214g and 218g each!
I also notice that the cutting is 'sharp' to the touch, rather than the duller feel of acid-smoothed cutting. I always associate this sharp feel with ABP, although I think these decanters are English.
Anyone got any tips for photographing clear and cut glass? It's something I really struggle with ::) :-[
Leni xx
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Check David's tips, the black card on each side works well.
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French? St. Louis? :huh:
just an idea - no knowledge at all. I'm afraid :-\
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Leni, I've gone through all my Val St.Lambert today - I had hoped to find yours... but unfortunately only similar...
Will you upload more photos please ? I'm not giving up so quickly 8)
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I have vowed to take more (hopefully better ::) ) photos of my cut glass - these and my ABP bowls - but have been very busy with another poorly cat :'( plus lots of school work over the exam period, and now I am going to be on Jury Service next week! I will try to do the picture session this weekend sometime, I promise! :spls:
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A suggestion, Sowerby ?
Ive got 'The Decanter ,an illustrated history of glass' by Andy McConnell,
Certainly similar, late 19thc Sowerby ,
Ill have a good look through the book,
Andy :D
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I have tried to take some more pics of the decanters (well, one of them, anyway) but I'm not sure if they're better or worse! :(
Incidentally, Ray Annenberg was round the other day and looked at them and he seemed to think they were very good, and I value his opinion greatly! ;D
Anyway, here they are in case anyone has any more ideas about them.
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Wasn't Sowerby a pressed glass maker?
These aren't just good, they're excellent! Cutting the wide blank pillars like that is very difficult and time-consuming. I can see now the depth of the cutting, too. Personally, I think they're English, Richardson or Webb perhaps.
Are you using a flash? They aren't generally a good idea with cut glass. I've been meaning to try to put together some tips for you, even started a post yesterday but couldn't find the example photos I'd taken. But today I did, and posted my set-up in another thread before seeing yours again: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21344.msg120306.html#new
That's for engraved glass, but most of the same stuff applies to rich cut glass. You might take a look at Karen's photos in the gallery, too (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=650). She uses a light tent, but you can sort of see how with a white background that has some shadow in it, you can get a bit of contrast.
Here are some other tips on glass photography:
http://glassandpotterysellers.org/photo_tips.html
http://www.sigma-2.com/camerajim/cjgglassware.htm
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Sheer laziness on my part I'm afraid, Kristi :-[ I just 'point and shoot' with my digital camera -I haven't even learned the different settings ::) My son tells me I'm a disgrace! He can use my camera to better effect than me, but he's busy revising for his 'Finals' :(
To the decanters: Well, I did wonder about Richardson originally (see my first post) and when Ray Annenberg saw them, the first thing he asked was, "Are they Webb?" So I would hope that maybe we could be right! ;D ;)
Have you seen the picture in Hajdamach of the Crystal Palace set? They really do look very similar to me! (Well, I hope it's not just wishful thinking! ::) )
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Point and shoot for glass? I think your son may be right! ;D Naw, joking - cameras these days can be intimidating! The instruction booklets are huge and confusing. But it's worth getting to know some of the functions if you do much glass photography, I reckon. When your son's done with Finals ask him to give you a crash course in changing the speed and aperture settings, use good light and turn off the flash. That's my advice, FWIW. ;D
Oh, and just monkey around with the settings. Get comfy and take lots of pictures of whatever's in front of you, and see what happens.
I've seen the decanters in Hajdamach, I think I know which one you're talking about, but maybe not - what page? I haven't seen one with the same cutting, though some are in a similar style. Webb cut pillars like this, too, and perhaps Stevens and Williams, though I think they're less likely candidates. Ha! what am I talking about? I hardly know anything about English cut glass. ::) But I'm learning! ;D
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:-[ Well, I thought the cutting looked a bit like the ones in Hajdamach in plate 80 and colour plate 13A, but now I look again I'm not sure. There are some similarities, but it's not close enough, I now think :-[
To be honest, I've never paid much attention to cut glass in pictures! I love it when I see it, but tend to avoid it in photographs - perhaps too many people are like me, and take crappy pics! ;) ::)
I am thinking hard about Ray's suggestion that these decanters could be repaired. One would need the whole foot replaced and both would need a chip on the neck smoothed down and a small amount of water damage polished out, but Ray seemed to think it would be worth doing! Perhaps I need to find out what it would cost. What do other people think? Are they worth it? :huh:
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How big are the chips? Replacing the foot would be drastic, I think, and quite expensive if you want it to be like the original. In American Brilliant people almost expect there to be a minor chip or two, and if they're small it doesn't usually detract from the value. Lead glass is soft, and easily damaged.
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Wasn't Sowerby a pressed glass maker? ...
Yes, they were. Cottle tells us that in 1852, when they moved to a 5½ acre (2¼ hectare) site in East Street Gateshead to expand, they had six ten-pot furnaces, all under one roof, operating on three shifts per day. By the following year there was a branch of the Glass Cutters Union established in Gateshead. By the 1860s they had eight furnaces and were employing over 450 people, up to over 700 by 1882. They made every type of glass with the possible exception of English Rock Crystal and Cameo. Their output was immense. There was a major shift to pressed glass in the 1860s, but they still made blown glass in some quantity. Decorating by cutting, engraving, and etching was used on pressed, mould blown, and free-blown pieces, both plain blanks and partly mould-decorated items.
It was the same story in Manchester and Sunderland. By comparison the Stourbridge factories were tiny, insignificant glassworks, forced to specialise in the finest quality work simply because they could not compete with the economies of scale of the giant northern factories on mainstream production.
I suggest you read Cottle. Be prepared to be amazed by the numbers. For example in 1883 Sowerby's average output was about 150 tons/tonnes (170 US "short" tons of 2000 lbs) of finished goods per week, none of it bottles or window glass.
One more example of their amazing skills. Cottle discovered that they were making "Clutha" style aesthetic art glass for almost three years before Dresser's designs were made by James Couper & Sons. Indeed Dresser sold Sowerby's art glass at his shop in London. Sowerby exhibited 700 examples of this glass at the 1882 Manchester Art and Industrial Exhibition, followed by 2000 examples put on public display in Newcastle, almost within sight of their glassworks. Yet all this glass is sold today as Clutha by Dresser, ignoring Cottle's revelations, whereas possibly most of it was made by Sowerby, and genuine pieces made by Couper should really be thought of as just copies of Sowerby's art glass, that is if anyone could tell the difference.
That's all, as I am on the verge of trampling all over Simon Cottle's IP rights, and I don't want to be zapped by a moderator. :angel:
Back to topic — it is more likely that Leni's decanters were made in Manchester or Gateshead than Stourbridge, simply by virtue of the relative size and production capacity of the respective glassworks. Publishing the known Manchester pattern books, of which there are a fair number, would be a great help.
Bernard C. 8)
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Bernard, could you tell us which Cottle book you're recommending us to read here please? :)
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Anne — Profuse apologies. Taking up the time of a moderator for any reason other than a newcomer in difficulties is the equivalent of a hanging offence, in my humble opinion. And I was just congratulating myself on remembering to provide the area and weight conversions!
Here's the reference:
Cottle, Simon, Sowerby - Gateshead Glass, Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear Museums Service, 1986, ISBN 0 905974 27 1
There don't seem to be any on the web, so ask for it at your local library. It should be readily available by inter-library loan (some libraries make a small charge for this service).
Bernard C. 8)
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Brilliant, thanks Bernard, I'll ask Kendal library to find it for me... (although there should be a copy there as Simon went to Kendal Grammar School so he is a local celeb!)
Edited to add: I just checked the catalogue online and there's not a copy in the whole county of Cumbria. Shocking! - all they have are two copies of the Sotheby's concise encyclopedia of glass - neither being at Kendal. Humph! Looks like inter-library loan is the way to go. ::)
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At Bernard's request, I am adding a picture here of the little tazza I bought from him a while ago, which could well have been made by Sowerby. Bernard asked me to show this as an example of (possible) Sowerby blown glass.
(Incidentally, Ray Annenberg saw this tazza at the same time he came round and saw my decanters, and he asked me was it made by Sowerby, because he thought the colour looked like Sowerby's green. Needless to say, it's NOT pressed! ;) )
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Bernard, thanks so much for the information about Sowerby! As I'm sure everyone realizes by now, I have heaps to learn about English glass. I never knew anything about it before joining this forum; the only European glass I'd done much "research" into was Bohemian (and it still baffles me! ::)).
I looked for Simon's book - it's not available through ILL here, and having just bought 3 books (two from the Dudley Museum) I'm not yet ready to buy it yet. After a little Googling and reading it seems like cut glass wasn't much of a focus there, though of course that doesn't mean they didn't do it. These decanters are very well cut, and my feeling is that they would have been made by a company that was big in the cutting business, even if not in their total glass output. Bernard, when you say, "it is more likely that Leni's decanters were made in Manchester or Gateshead" do you mean there are other companies around there besides Sowerby that are also likely candidates?
Surprisingly (to me), Hajdamach says on pg. 359, "English cut glass formed the bulk of glass production in the late Victorian period and the profits from its sale helped to finance the technically complex art glass." Not so surprising is the fact that companies like Stevens and Williams employed freelance cutters to help meet their demands, so even if a company seems small on paper it may in reality have had more people working for it. Pound-for-pound (kilo-for-kilo ;D) it may not have produced as much as a company like Sowerby, but much of Sowerby's output was cheaper and more quickly made.
Of course, there's always the possibility Leni's decanters aren't English at all. Hawkes and Hoare are two good American candidates. Leni, what color do they fluoresce in UV?
Your green tazza is gorgeous! Thanks for posting it. You mention Sowerby's green...one little factoid I stumbled on was that Sowerby exported some of their colored glass, including to America. That's not necessarily relevant to the attribution on your compote, it just struck me as interesting. I learn so much through this board! :) :) :)
Does anyone have an example of Sowerby's cut glass? Or if some of it is shown in Simon's or another book, I would very much appreciate it if someone could email me an image or two. My curiosity is piqued now!!
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Kristi — Please take care with the word research. I like to keep it for the the work of those who consult primary evidence and generously bring their results and conclusions to the rest of us in the form of books, articles, and websites.
I'm surprised that Cottle is not available through ILL in the USA, as I thought that the Rakow Library actively participated in ILL, and that there was an established reciprocal ILL agreement between the Library of Congress and the British Library. Perhaps I am wrong.
Please take care to not misquote me, quote me out of context, or revise what I wrote. I am not sure whether you were in that reply, but you were getting close. Please tell me if I have got it wrong, and I will, after due consideration and if necessary, put it right. I prefer to choose my own editors. You were certainly quoting Hajdamach out of context, as he was making that assertion in the context of the introduction to chapter 14.
Please take more care when describing Sowerby. They were a highly efficient and cost effective innovative factory, producing fine quality products at a price that few others could match. You will be interested to know that contemporary writers, used to equating quality with expense, also had real difficulty with Sowerby's operation and products.
I sold a Sowerby cut salt at Gaydon, only a few weeks ago. Nice hand-polished accurate cutting on a pressed blank with the trade mark moulded into the base, dating it to post–1876 or thereabouts. Leni may remember it. No more identifiable cut Sowerby in stock.
I can appreciate your difficulty getting to grips with the reality of British glass production during the Victorian era. When you are constantly drip fed the line that almost all unmarked glass was by S&W or Webb, you start to believe it. Don't forget that Hajdamach concentrated on the Stourbridge factories quite naturally, as he was curator of the museum there, and the surviving pattern books and other records were readily available to him.
Bernard C. 8)
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Kristi — Please take care with the word research. I like to keep it for the the work of those who consult primary evidence and generously bring their results and conclusions to the rest of us in the form of books, articles, and websites. Yes, I had misgivings about that word when I used it, which is why I put it in quotation marks. To me, on a personal level, that's what I'm doing when I read and look at photos and ask questions.
I'm surprised that Cottle is not available through ILL in the USA, as I thought that the Rakow Library actively participated in ILL, and that there was an established reciprocal ILL agreement between the Library of Congress and the British Library. Perhaps I am wrong. I only searched in the state system. I can get things ILL nationally for a fee, but never tried it.
Please take care to not misquote me, quote me out of context, or revise what I wrote. I am not sure whether you were in that reply, but you were getting close. Please tell me if I have got it wrong, and I will, after due consideration and if necessary, put it right. I prefer to choose my own editors. Oh my! I don't even know what you're referring to. I quoted you once, and that was to ask a question (which you haven't answered). You were certainly quoting Hajdamach out of context, as he was making that assertion in the context of the introduction to chapter 14. I thought about the context, but the statement itself seems to stand alone. It would have been different if the chapter were about a particular company. I don't know what all he was including in his assessment. It just seems like a striking statement, so I kind of threw it out as a point of discussion.
Please take more care when describing Sowerby. They were a highly efficient and cost effective innovative factory, producing fine quality products at a price that few others could match. You will be interested to know that contemporary writers, used to equating quality with expense, also had real difficulty with Sowerby's operation and products. I hope you didn't think I meant that cheaper was low quality. That was a dumb word to use for less expensively. I shouldn't be making any assumptions about a company I know so little about. Still, none of the Sowerby glass I've seen (and I admit I've seen little) can compare in the amount of time and labor that went into making Leni's decanters. A great deal of skill was involved in cutting the pillars. Only a few top firms in the US attempted such cutting. I'm not saying Sowerby didn't make them, but based on what I've seen and read I think it's more likely a Stourbridge company did. My opinion - and not a terribly educated one! ;)
I sold a Sowerby cut salt at Gaydon, only a few weeks ago. Nice hand-polished accurate cutting on a pressed blank with the trade mark moulded into the base, dating it to post–1876 or thereabouts. Leni may remember it. No more identifiable cut Sowerby in stock. Maybe I'm jaded by American glass, but here pressed blanks are equated with cutting corners when it comes to rich cut glass.
I can appreciate your difficulty getting to grips with the reality of British glass production during the Victorian era. When you are constantly drip fed the line that almost all unmarked glass was by S&W or Webb, you start to believe it. I don't believe that! Geez, give me a little credit. Ray Annenberg said he thought they might be Webb, and he must know something about the glass industry. Don't forget that Hajdamach concentrated on the Stourbridge factories quite naturally, as he was curator of the museum there, and the surviving pattern books and other records were readily available to him.
Bernard, I really hope I didn't offend you by my comments. I seem to have a bad way of putting things, my writing style ain't so hot I guess. Because of a medical problem I have trouble finding the words I want to use, and it takes me a long time to write a post sometimes, so maybe I get slack.
Bernard C. 8)
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Leni, what a beautiful pair of cut glass decanters. :o Could you black light these and tell me what color they are? That helps me determine what catalog to search for American Brilliant. Thanks! ;D
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Leni, if you get a chance, could you look at these with a blacklight and report back?
EDIT: Whoops, just noticed Nancy's post! Well, I second it. ;D
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Looked at the decanters with the only black-light I've got - a torch with a fairly strong standard UV LED - and all I get is the purple reflection from the LED. No other glow of any sort. Nada.
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That narrows down the search Leni!! There were some American cut glass companies that would buy Baccarat blanks, so I'll look in that direction. They are very very stunning!!
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Thanks, Leni! It will be interesting to see what Nancy finds. I'm still leaning toward English, but it's a hard thing to verify.
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I still have a big pile of Baccarat catalogues to do covering a wide range of years, so sometime in the next few years they will be on-line.
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Launay-Hautin marketed Baccarat and St.Louis during the 1840ies - have a look at their catalogues on www.glas-musterbuch.de - I've already tried to id yours, Leni, but unfortunately without success. St.Louis was my first thaught, but now Baccarat is also in the field - good luck!
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It's possible that if it is a Bacarrat blank it wouldn't be listed in a Bacarrat catalog anyway, since the blanks were sometimes made to order for American companies. I suspect a blank for this would have to be made with the cutting in mind; it looks like it would have to have a very thick body.
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I still have a big pile of Baccarat catalogues to do covering a wide range of years, so sometime in the next few years they will be on-line.
Frank, I'm looking forward to that!!
Leni, I'm sorry, I just can't find anything that could lead us in the American Brilliant period. The swirled tusks are wonderful and J. Hoare liked to do that type of style with that type of cutting, but they did their own blanks. I guess you could just send them to me so I could inspect them personally. >:D
I'll be watching this thread to see if anyone can identify these for you. Good luck they are gorgeous!!!!!
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Thanks to everybody who has shown an interest in these :)
Personally, I just have a feeling they're English, although I can't quite explain why. I saw a couple of decanters at Broadfield House when we were there for the Paperweight Day which seemed sort of similar in some way - again, I can't quite explain. Shape, style, elements of the cutting .... :-\ Anyway, one was by Webb and the other Richardson. So that's a lot of help! ::)
Anyway, thanks again everyone :-*
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The form of the decanters (and especially the stoppers) reminds me strongly of traditional English rock crystal, as if they adapted it to brilliant cutting. I've seen rich cut Hoare and Hawkes with blank pillars, but the pillars on those aren't so big...not that that necessarily means anything. Nancy has more references than I and Karen/Jenessey has looked as well; you'd think something like this would be represented somewhere among their combined references since it's so distinctive, but again, the fact that it isn't doesn't necessarily mean anything. Sigh. I wish someone around here had extensive references for Webb, Stevens and Williams, and Richardson! Preferrably me ;D ;D ;D Does anyone know of a book that covers a lot of rich cut English glass?
Nancy, Hoare got some of their blanks from Bacarrat, according to Sinclaire and Spillman's Complete Cut and Engraved Glass of Corning. So did Hawkes, Sinclaire, Straus and others, as you probably know.
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Leni - The American Cut Glass Association (ACGA) recommends an 18" 15-watt bulb as the standard for black light testing cut glass. I don't know what the European equivalent would be. My first black light was quite strong, in the shape of a regular incandescent bulb, and I got no reaction whatsoever from even signed pieces of ABP cut glass.
Some black light responses can be quite subtle. In a completely dark room with the piece on a black surface, it would be interesting to see if there is a response in an area of chips to the decanters or stoppers, which would be areas of unpolished glass.
I've been told it's o.k. to post active auction listings on eBay. Your decanters have what in the American Brilliant Period was called "triple miter cane" or "triple miter" motifs. I do not know if European makers also used it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110263593491&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001
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Your decanters have what in the American Brilliant Period was called "triple miter cane" or "triple miter" motifs. I do not know if European makers also used it.
Yes, they did. A triple miter cane pattern is shown on pg. 362 in Hadjamach in a Webb pattern book, although that one doesn't show stars on the buttons.