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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: tropdevin on June 13, 2008, 08:39:38 AM

Title: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on June 13, 2008, 08:39:38 AM
Is this weight  (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=220245771246&item=220245771246) really Ysart - or are people calling anything like this Ysart, regardless of origin?  The votes of the Somerset jury go to......Belgium.....

Alan
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: Frank on June 13, 2008, 11:50:53 AM
 ;D I like the idea that it must be Lead crystal. It does look slightly different to some of the wobbly base ones that were flooding the market. I guess it boils down to the sellers like to use the name Ysart. Grinding down the base a bit could be done at any time and would stop the wobbling and shelf scratching.

I am happy to add a section to Scotland's glass showing any number of these badge weights, if we can also include any documented makers - plus notes about all of the controversy, at least it will help people to make more informed decisions. I have one, packed away at the moment, that I would say is clearly not Ysart. But in order to put up such a section I will expect a reasonable number of examples... at least ten, preferably 50+. I do not have the time to track them down myself so a volunteer/s to gather the images and write up the notes would be helpful.

Images for each should be
1. Top view.
2. Side view.
3. Base 20-30° angle, to show base shaping.
4. Detail view, to show bubbles on badge
5. Other views to highlight features, colours of ground and technique of ground - as appropriate

On a white or neutral background to help compare the colour and transparency of the metal.
Measurements to 1/8th inch (1mm) accuracy and weight. SG if possible. UV long and short, if possible.
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: alexander on June 13, 2008, 12:04:43 PM
I have two that are in my "waiting to be photographed" queue. Will send when photoed.
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: Frank on June 13, 2008, 01:57:27 PM
3 down 47 to go  ;D
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: tropdevin on June 14, 2008, 09:02:37 AM
Hi Frank

Make that 46..I have sent you a full set of images and details for the weight below, save the SG. But it is sodalime glass.....hard and light.

Alan

(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/AGTBadgetops.jpg)
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: Frank on June 14, 2008, 10:47:24 AM
Super!
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: Frank on June 14, 2008, 11:32:21 AM
Alan has set the standard. Description for each image is seen by hovering the mouse over the image!

Alan can you add anything to the description please?

http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=336&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=51
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on June 14, 2008, 12:58:46 PM
Moderators - can this thread be renamed: "Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?"

Related threads:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21045.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20728.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,14411.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,7733.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4875.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4849.0.html Vasart?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2535.0.html
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,366.0.html
Title: Re: Ysart ??
Post by: tropdevin on June 14, 2008, 01:06:55 PM
Hi Frank

The badge is an Army Service Corps badge, of the type used 1901 -1919.  The word 'Royal' was added as a prefix in 1918. The Army Service Corps ran the transport system for the British Army, and served during the First World War in many areas including Flanders, now within Belgium.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Derek on June 14, 2008, 08:12:12 PM
Hi Frank

I dont see that knowing the SG of these weights will help this investigation as each has an embedded badge. These badges will not be the same SG as the glass and the badges will have different SG's from each other and will also vary in size.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on June 15, 2008, 11:36:31 AM
Any possible data, when there is sufficient, has its uses. The parameters are best kept as wide as possible when starting a study and the value of the data assessed during a later stage. If we ever get to hundreds of weights, it is likely some will contain identical badges - in such cases SG may potentially have some additional value. Of course there can also be unreliability in other measurement too as all the data will be from different people. It is not hard science just an attempt to get as much data as possible in order to try and fine some consistencies that will help in making an assessment of this type of weight. The results are not predictable.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on July 17, 2008, 01:15:44 PM

Another badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=200239744370&item=200239744370) has appeared for sale. (I see the locomotive was relisted for some reason).

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: RAY on July 17, 2008, 02:28:35 PM

Another badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=200239744370&item=200239744370) has appeared for sale. (I see the locomotive was relisted for some reason).

Alan

he/she say's A slight scuff but looks like a large crack
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on August 04, 2008, 09:07:56 PM

Here's another badge weight. (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=370074876051&item=370074876051) It has a flat to stand it on, like some Ysart ones.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: RAY on August 04, 2008, 09:58:16 PM
we might be getting somewhere now, all the one's i've had with one faccet so it can stand, have had the gold'ish coloured badge, the one's without the faccet are just like the normal white sulphide, could this be a clue or not?
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: KevinH on August 04, 2008, 10:58:42 PM
Ray - those are interesting thoughts. But I would suggest caution in drawing any conclusions until many more have been studied.

And that also applies to my comment below ...

Something I noticed with the eBay one that Alan has linked to today ... the edge grinding looks coarser than the base grinding. Could this be a trick of the light? Or a feature of the angle of the photo? Or could it be an indication that some of these weights have been edge-ground much later than the original making????
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on August 05, 2008, 10:35:44 AM

Here are images of a pedestal badge weight I sold a couple of years ago - it was a coppery-gold colour. The top edge has a rough pontil mark - I think that sometimes gets ground smooth = and I think the stem is often snapped off. I have seen more than one badge weight with ground flats on two edges.

Frank - Do you want higher resolution images for your study, given I don't have much other info? I may have sizes somewhere!

(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/1148RAF3.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/1148RAF2.jpg)
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on August 05, 2008, 10:46:21 AM
Yes please, contributions are slow and mine is packed away. All the views you have and I can include details from large images too.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on August 16, 2008, 04:14:46 PM

Another badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=260275724486&item=260275724486) on eBay.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on August 18, 2008, 01:36:46 PM
And another with a ground base.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370077643687

Salvation Army one added to SG (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=336&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=51&vmcchk=1)

next...?
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 15, 2008, 03:46:47 PM
26 images of 4 more added

http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=336&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=51

If anyone can add to the badge data, please post here or email me.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2008, 11:37:40 PM
5 more added with some interesting information regarding Paul Ysart's badge weights, but none of the 5 from Colin Mahoney are directly linked to Paul Ysart unfortunately.


These will probably be the last added until after my relocation, please delay sending further examples for the time being. They could be posted here in the interim.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2008, 08:54:08 AM
Added the missing images and size data for Royal Engineers #4.

Any comments on what is shown so far?
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2008, 10:46:25 AM
Added a 5th Royal Engineers - sulphide.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on September 25, 2008, 09:13:33 PM

Here's another! (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=220286216380&item=220286216380)

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Martyn K on October 12, 2008, 04:15:03 PM
Just found another Army Service Corps one, would you like the pics Frank.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on October 12, 2008, 07:14:34 PM
Yes please, use email button to left. Large as possible please.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on October 13, 2008, 08:15:12 PM
Thanks Martyn. That one makes an interesting comparison (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=336&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=51) to the other. Ground seems fairly different but a close match in other respects.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on February 07, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
***
Another badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=290294761330&item=290294761330) on eBay. This one does not look like Ysart to me.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on March 09, 2009, 08:58:15 AM
Canadian rifles badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5335820906&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=200317907147&item=200317907147). Not very Ysart like.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: cfosterk on March 20, 2009, 12:37:07 AM
The Canadians were based up near Perth in WW2 so its more plausible that most badge weights.

That said, any link to Paul Ysart is tenuous at best.....
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on April 18, 2009, 03:52:33 PM
***

Here is  another badge weight on eBay (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=2&campid=5336261829&toolid=10001&customid=&ext=370189692186&item=370189692186). I doubt it is 19th C - looks like it might have once been on a pedestal.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on April 17, 2010, 09:03:00 AM
***

Another badge weight (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574631383&toolid=10001&campid=5336261829&customid=&icep_item=230463305987&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229508&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg) - the background does not look 'Ysart' to me. Generic 'Belgian'?

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 08, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
A new contender Frank Eisner see http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2287.msg239536.html#msg239536

Ray said to me "...as this weight has the same ground as most of the so called paul ysart army medal weights, could frank of made them as well ?"

As we know Eisner was involved with the military and did produce the Spitfire weight, it would not be unlikely that he also made badge weights. Both at Lemigton and Waterford. Coincidence of colours is easily ignored as likely to have been sourced from same suppliers. If anyone has known or suspected Eisner weights and some badge weights, could you compare please.
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: daveweight on September 08, 2011, 12:40:35 PM
I have three or four badge weights but this one is very unusual it is obviously a Vasart from the canes and the badge is the Arms of Perth, most Scottish badge weights are attributed to Paul but it seems other members of the family could also make them
Dave
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: daveweight on September 08, 2011, 01:22:43 PM
Here are two pictures of a Royal Engineers badge weight I have which is definitely Belgium and it is interesting to see from the side view how high the badge is set above the base
Dave
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: KevinH on September 08, 2011, 02:24:08 PM
Ray said to me "...as this weight has the same ground as most of the so called paul ysart army medal weights, could frank of made them as well ?"

As we know Eisner was involved with the military and did produce the Spitfire weight, it would not be unlikely that he also made badge weights. Both at Lemigton and Waterford. Coincidence of colours is easily ignored as likely to have been sourced from same suppliers. If anyone has known or suspected Eisner weights and some badge weights, could you compare please.

Point 1 - the coloured chip ground in Ray's weight is not "the same ground" as in the so-called Paul Ysart badge weights as it is much more "chunky" than I have seen in other badge weights attrbuted to Paul Ysart.

Point 2 - there is currently no evidence, including that from Eisner family members, of Frank Eisner ever making a "badge weight". I hope that "eBay fever" does not take hold with a spate of "Eisner badge weights" suddenly becoming available!
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: daveweight on September 08, 2011, 04:35:57 PM
Hi Frank
 Are you including Button weights in with Badge weights ? Paul Ysart somehow encased hollow brass greatcoat buttons in paperweights, these are rarer so are seen less often that the badge weights.  Some I have seen have a large bbble under the button caused, I guess, when the heat caused it to rise during encapsulation. Picture of my one attached and you will note it has the Harlequin style bubbles too
Dave
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on September 08, 2011, 08:52:36 PM
The 'button' weights might have something useful to say about the grounds he used for the genre... or not of course  :huh:
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: RAY on September 08, 2011, 09:12:24 PM
i had 3 buttons weights around 3 yrs ago , and all 3 were sat on just white coloured chips
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Frank on October 28, 2012, 11:32:19 PM
I finally got my own weight photographed but cannot date the badge... or rather collar/shoulder title. Seems to be earlier than 1960 at least. More pics on eBay see Marketplace posting.

p.s. I have been a bit out of things for some time... any new thoughts on these?
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: tropdevin on October 29, 2012, 10:09:37 AM
***

Hi Frank.

My belief is that Paul certainly made a number of badge weights, including some on pedestals - but so did various Belgian / Alsace glassworks. I am not sure how to decide with some of them.  I think the somewhat untidy weights with rather coarse frit grounds that resemble Belgian sulphide weights are of Belgian origin.  I suspect that far too many are attributed to Paul.

Alan
Title: Re: Badge Weight Study - Ysart or not?
Post by: Derek on October 30, 2012, 06:41:17 PM
Hi all

I asked Dave Moir (Ysart Brothers, Vasart and Strathearn) about these badge weights last year and his comment was
that all the Ysart family he worked with made them in their spare time they regarded them as a nice little sideline
with plenty of requests from all the troops stationed near Perth.

I have a Hampshire regiment cap badge weight (Picture 1). (3 1/4" diameter x 2" tall) The Hampshires became the Royal
Hampshire regiment in 1946 so the badge although not necessarily the encasement predates that. The wording and the
rose is a coppery colour although in the original badges it was gold. I assume the heat from the encasement has caused the
change although the silver remains the same.

The weight has a facet top and bottom although I don't think it was a stem as the bottom facet is very rounded and appears
fire polished.  The top facet however looks as if it was ground off with quite sharp edges. Maybe it was the holding point
while the bottom facet area was shaped?? (picture 2).

There are a few pieces of both gold and green adventurine in the ground (picture 3) so I suspect it was made by someone in
the Ysart family rather than in Belgium although I have been unable to establish whether or not the regiment was stationed
near Perth (which seems unlikely).

The base is interesting (picture 4) as it is polished and hollow ground with the remnants of a pontil. You can see the parallel
grinding marks.  The hollow grinding is very shallow which would indicate a large diameter wheel. I have asked Dave Moir
if he can remember the size of the wheels used on the paperweight bases at Vasart.

Best regards

Derek