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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glasskillian on December 19, 2012, 11:20:51 PM

Title: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: glasskillian on December 19, 2012, 11:20:51 PM
Purchased this lovely mug recently and im over the moon with it it measures 5" tall 3" wide excluding handle a good tankard or mug size yet its very heavily made thick wall glass,  Guessing made this way for the i think copper wheel engraving to be done this is very deep especially on the tree trunk a few millimetres anyway. There is so much goin on with this piece the handle is a different coloured greenish coloured glass and the body amethyst some of the amethyst has passed into the handle and reminds me of cloud glass. The amethyst has different tones which adds a lot to the engraving. The base has a very large deep pontil scar and lots of wear to the edge of this im thinking it might be 19th century or earlier english or bohemian very wide guess thats why ive listed it here would love to get another view thanks for looking hope you like it. ;D
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: glasskillian on December 19, 2012, 11:23:08 PM
more pictures
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 20, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
Now that is interesting, as the amethyst in the handle is deliberate. Lovely!
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: bfg on December 20, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
that tree is an absolute spit of the one on my Rowland Ward safari bowl and it was engraved by Moser, same area perhaps?
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 20, 2012, 10:29:27 AM
I think I'd rather have found this than gold - it is absolutely stunning. Clearly a top maker, whoever it is!
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: flying free on December 20, 2012, 11:12:35 AM
That's just beautiful.  The colour combination is superb.  Is the engraving showing as clear on the amethyst background as well?  I love it!
m
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: azelismia on December 21, 2012, 08:33:32 AM
Moser was my first thought as well. it's fantastic!
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: glasskillian on December 21, 2012, 07:38:09 PM
Thankyou for commenting on this item im so glad it seems to be popular as it was when i opened the box  ::)
Also im interested in the moser???? I dont know much about them and only seem to see heavily surface decorated pieces when i think of moser glass.. Ive added some extra photo's to show engraving hope it helps flying free...
thankyou for comments
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 02:55:22 AM
Moser and Harrach both did intaglio and shallower engraving on glass in the late 1800s (1885-1915 approx) of very high quality.  Some of the other bohemian refiners also did very high quality work of this type (the glass schools of Haida, Goldberg, Josepheninhuette, muhlhaus..... there were some master engravers that worked for Josephinenhuette and Harrach but those would be signed most likely.) But Harrach and Moser are the houses that generally are thought of first for this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: krsilber on December 22, 2012, 05:36:16 AM
I hate to throw a wet towel on the subject, but this is far from master engraver material.  It's lovely, and unusual to see in such a color combination and style of mug, but the engraving is not extraordinary or very difficult.  The bottom makes me think not Moser.  It seems like it would be rather peculiar for any of the major Bohemian/Czech makers because there's no flat part.  Doesn't it seem like there's at lease a flat ground ring on the bottom of most Bohemian glass, if any grinding is done on the bottom?  Maybe I'm wrong there.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of wear to the bottom. 
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 01:06:17 PM
I was more addressing a quick overview of the players than suggesting anything specific towards this piece as to the master work or not. In my head I was thinking more like a glass school than master work if it was something other than moser or harrach. But looking at it a little more rationally. (yeah, I admit I was blinded by the subject matter :) ) the quality isn't that high. you're right.  I didn't look at it very closely. I am not even positive that's up to Moser or harrach standards.

the base being entirely covered in pontil scar.. it happens. not the general norm but it happens. Wear.. with this kind of base I am not sure you would see wear. it would sit on the edges of the pontil I am guessing. Even then wear isn't a foolproof indicator of age in either direction.
but yeah, after having a closer look I back away from what I was saying before. Now I am going to say I don't know. I no longer have an opinion on this. Maybe? Maybe not?
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: flying free on December 22, 2012, 02:04:57 PM
bfg do you have a pic of the Moser engraved piece you can share at all, just for comparison please?
Glaskillian is it possible to put a roll of white paper inside the tankard and photograph it in natural light side on, so the picture can be seen clearly please?

I absolutely love this tankard and if I'd seen it, I'd definitely have bought it.  The colour combination, the engraved through to clear, the subject matter and also the way the engraving is done, all very pretty to me ( I love the swan,it seems well proportioned with the width of the neck and body etc which often I don't think when I see swans in glass).  The cloud effect in the handle reminds me of Davidson Topaz Brier cloud glass, which is also the amethyst and green and gorgeous imho.
 I've no idea who the maker is, and I'm not suggesting it is Stevens and Williams (or Davidson) at all, but I just wanted to add that I've had a few smaller pieces by Stevens and Williams where the pontil mark was so large it practically covered the base of the piece.  I think this is larger than the base of the pieces I owned of course, but still it appears to be a neat finish.

It may turn out not to be the highest quality piece perhaps, but sometimes beauty is in the making regardless isn't it?  Sometimes a piece has appeal not because of who made it, but just because  :)
m
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: glasskillian on December 22, 2012, 03:11:28 PM
Very interesting information im hearing names of companies ive never come across before, I have managed to photograph with a white background inside the mug hope it will help ive also took a fair representation of the edge of the pontil scar which i think shows good wear this pontil is huge and deep and has faint marks going from the centre to the outside of it, You are correct in thinking the jug sits on the edge of this pontil scar. Ive also took a picture of the handle as interestingly it appears to have a red type of oxide or similar around where it joins the glass i thought this might be a repair but it appears to of been added as there is no signs of damage....I still feel in my guts its a 19th century mug mabe a tavern type from who knows? but a mighty preety one maybe a local squire had for when he drank in the local pub im guessing here my knowledge is very limited but im certainy gonna use it over christmas...Thanks for commenting its great to read the information im slowly looking into it..
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: bfg on December 22, 2012, 08:38:22 PM
Link to bowl as requested
....
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49664.msg280441.html#msg280441

moser are still producing engraved glass tankards as gifts for gentlemen and do do swans, this style is not on their website, possibly an earlier version? Not suggesting bespoke, rather off the shelf?
Mel
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: krsilber on December 22, 2012, 09:22:58 PM
"Sometimes a piece has appeal not because of who made it, but just because " 

Exactly!  It is indeed a beautiful and curious piece!  The swan is very graceful.  I'd have bought it, too, without having any idea who made it, or when.  It is extraordinary in that it's not something you see every day (if ever!).  I don't see any sign of it being cut-to-clear...often unpolished engraving can look that way in photos because of the way light is reflected, while in cut-to-clear you can see the transition from the thinner colored layer to the clear underneath.

Usually when people talk about a pontil scar they mean that you can see the rough area where it was knocked off the rod.  This has had the scar ground out.

Interesting that bfg mentioned his Rowland Ward safari bowl - that's the same kind of thing I was reminded of, not only because of the engraving, but because of the blank.  They sold mugs with a similar shape, but as far as I can tell it was usually colorless glass.  (Here's a thread that talks a bit about the company. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,662.10.html)  Aren't Moser's also colorless?  Maybe not always.  Hmmm.  I found a line animal-engraved colored glass on the Theresienthal site, but the shape is different.

Unfortunately, trees were executed in a very similar manner by a variety of engravers.  Trees are one of the first things I look at when evaluating engraving of nature scenes.
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 10:44:44 PM
meh, you're getting all pendantic on the pontil scar. we all know the process pretty sure. When discussing it in terms such as we are here it's just the easiest way to refer to that portion of the piece. are we really going to say cut and polished pontil scar every single time we want to refer to it? It is still the pontil scar even if it has been polished. I suppose we could start calling it the belly button since it's a mark left from the birth of the piece.  ;D
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 10:52:48 PM
Webb also sometimes polished out the entire base in a concave.
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: krsilber on December 23, 2012, 02:05:22 AM
You've got me pegged - I'm a pedant at heart! ;D

" It is still the pontil scar even if it has been polished."  Oh, come now!  Either the scar is there, or it's not.  (Besides, don't you mean "cut"?  The bottoms aren't always polished. ;))

Hmmm.  In the case of a some Bohemian glass there may never have been a pontil scar. Since ground rims were so prevalent, many pieces may not have required attaching to a pontil.  That's pure speculation, but it's relevant to the question of nomenclature.
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: Bernard C on December 23, 2012, 04:50:46 AM
Kristi — Grateful thanks.   Like you, I always look at trees, as artists' interpretation can be so different.   I feel I can go public now without everyone regarding it as evidence that I am one marble short of a fruitcake.

Here's an amazing interpretation by William Hackstoun, not particularly well known, but the leading professional artist (pencil, watercolour and oil) in St. Andrews about a century ago.   His skeletal slice of a tree makes it look as if he has climbed up it and mapped out every twig.   See http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-18280 — click image to enlarge.

The point I am attempting to make is that while glass engraving places some quite severe limitations on tree interpretation, some aspects of tree engraving (and moulding — see Sowerby's Gathering Apples) could have been influenced by other types of art.   Is there a good readable reference work on this subject?

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: Bernard C on December 23, 2012, 11:48:36 PM
Having spent a day contemplating what I said, I realised this evening that an essential piece of information was missing on Hackstoun, illustrated with just this one example of his work.   It is that all his trees were painted this way, including trees in leaf, which he started as skeletal slices and then added colour, sometimes almost completely obliterating the underlying skeleton.

Sorry about that.   I hope it makes sense now.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: nigel benson on December 24, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
Quote
It is still the pontil scar even if it has been polished.

Surely a biut of a contradiction, since the 'scar' is missing  :o

Pontil scar = with the rough break of pontil.

Polished pontil = the finished pontil.

So, maybe not the same, and perhaps leaves room for misinterpretation if you only say 'pontil scar'. I'm afraid I agree with krsilber and don't think pedentry is involved at all  ;) :)

Both definitions above have two words, as does 'finished pontil'  :)

Nigel


Quote
I feel I can go public now without everyone regarding it as evidence that I am one marble short of a fruitcake
.........I think people who have a tree 'fetish' can only be sane. A very good occupation Bernard ;) :D
Title: Re: Feel like ive found gold!!! But what is it any ideas welcome!!!
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 24, 2012, 06:59:19 PM
I (being a grumpy old pedant) get very irritated about the use of the word pontil on its own to refer to the pontil mark.

A "polished pontil" is literally a blowing iron to which somebody has applied a bit of Brasso and elbow grease! ;D

"Mark" is a very useful work to use, as it can refer to either the scar or the way it has been treated.