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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on July 05, 2010, 09:11:48 AM

Title: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on July 05, 2010, 09:11:48 AM
I have never seen this technique before - but it is very striking so I have good hopes one of you will recognise it.

It is a bowl, diameter 5"= 12.5 cms  with an opalescent pattern which stands out from the clear glass both inside and out.  The rim is polished.

Let the guessing games begin. :X:
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 06, 2010, 10:48:16 AM
Fascinating and beautiful beast - but I don't think it's use is for spaghetti.
It does however, look as if some sort of graal thing is going on in it perhaps?

I've seen one other thing (I think) which might have a similar sort of finish -  a very old uranium glass bowl, with a gently raised opaque fleur-de-lys pattern around it - I don't know if the raising of the pattern is inside and out or not, it's a stunning piece - I believe it belongs to Leni.

I think I've also seen a flat, fan-shaped, footed piece in uranuim and opaque with a similar pattern on it - it looked quite Powell-y but that's not my area, and it may well not have been. It was a beauty, damaged, and still a tad on the expensive side for me!
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on July 06, 2010, 12:19:51 PM
Thanks Sue. I thought of Graal too - but it does not have a clear casing. I also know the Uranium opaque technique - several British companies used it, and I have a claret jug with a floral pattern. But that does not seem to be the same technique as used in this bowl. The old technique used striking zinc oxide as an opacifyer - the pattern was generated in a hot mould. This bowl apparently has threads of opal glass imposed on the body and rolled in. If you look at the place where the pattern meets the rim, the strand is opaque on the outside, and clear on the inside. I cannot seem to figure out how they did it. Or maybe it is the same technique after all?
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on July 06, 2010, 12:30:36 PM
Ivo I found this - I hope the link works

http://reviews.ebay.com/Opalescent-Vases-ID-Guide-Part-7-Maze-Patterns_W0QQugidZ10000000012440928

m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 06, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
WoW!
Looks like it might be a Target Swirl thingy, Ivo - it just doesn't look as if it could possibly be that old - I'm not doubting the info, it just looks like far too modern a design. I'm impressed.

Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on July 06, 2010, 01:03:40 PM
WoW!
Fantastic information and not at all what I expected. Like Sue I would have placed it more recent in time - perhaps in Sweden or in Italy. I'm very surprised and most grateful for the link. Chapeau! :tof:
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on July 06, 2010, 03:46:35 PM
That is a great piece of glass....  I love opalescent glass, and the pattern in it is fabulous.  On one hand I am surprised that it has that kind of age to it, yet on the other hand one of the things that continues to draw me to older glass is how far ahead of their times many designers were.  That piece of glass would look at home with a collection of older glass, but would also be right at home in a modernist interior..... and one would never guess it had that kind of age to it....

Fabulous find!!

Craig
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on July 06, 2010, 05:51:52 PM
Not at all Ivo - you are welcome.  I am pleased to be able to help in return for all the help I receive ;D 
Oh and of course, your bowl is absolutely gorgeous!  I love opalescent glass, but only in contemporary/plain shapes, no frills and like your bowls with the applied piece, that is just perfectly balanced. 
As Craig says, I constantly look at some of my glass and pottery and think about the people who conceived the idea so many years ago, so very ahead of their time.  I guess they were the ones always striving to do something different, push the boundaries - probably no different thought processes from outstanding designers and artists today iykwim.  But it's amazing that they produced such fabulous designs years ahead of their time and really stand out from the crowd.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on April 13, 2011, 11:10:19 PM
Ivo, on my searches for a my orange lidded box with the black decor, I'm pretty sure I came across something similar to this (can't find it at the mo) and it may not have been exactly the same.  But having read the link I gave again, it seems these are not definitely attributed in that article and I wondered whether your bowl could be Bohemian in origin.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on April 14, 2011, 05:17:13 AM
I have it down as ca. 1910 British/ Jefferson/ Northwood which is as vague as it gets - so I guess another open option won't hurt....
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 14, 2011, 06:45:15 AM
Quote
If you look at the place where the pattern meets the rim, the strand is opaque on the outside, and clear on the inside. I cannot seem to figure out how they did it.

But wouldn't that be the case? It seems so with a stripey opalescent Victorian piece I have with a cut rim. The reheating is only the outside. It's a lovely bowl but surely it could also be more modern but using the same technique.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on April 14, 2011, 07:26:21 AM
Christine the pattern on Ivo's seems to be the same or remarkably similar to those in the link (which indicate 1910 ish).  Do you think they might all be more modern than the link implies maybe then? 
The only thing I would add is that the other one I saw was attributed to Kralik if I recall correctly, but had a different pattern to Ivo's though seemed to be the same execution, and seemed to be a little 'yellower' if I recall. It probably wouldn't, but it looked to me like it would glow under blacklight, it had that kind of older opalescent look.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 14, 2011, 08:20:54 AM
I have no idea, but inspiration comes from many places. Just playing devil's advocate
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on April 14, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
true  :)  and Ivo's bowl is a very contemporary shape as well although I'm not sure that counts for anything really.  It's a gorgeous technique whoever did it.  I love the opalescence and the funky design.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 15, 2011, 06:14:23 AM
Those other items look quite heavy; Ivo's looks quite fine.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on April 15, 2011, 06:17:24 AM
and just to show this in perspective: my minicollection of opal.
left to right, rear: Oldrich Lipa, Floris Meijdam, unidentified, Fratelli Toso
left to right, front: Oldrich Lipa, the elusive target swirl, Moser tulip (attr.)
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on April 29, 2011, 04:00:26 AM
If one looks at enough stuff enough of the time one will eventually, through dumb luck, be able to find something they have looked for but never thought they would actually locate......  I think this image will shed some light on the bowl..... I do not know who the label is by, but I think it points pretty strongly at a country of origin.....   :thup:

The candle stick is 3-3/8 tall and 3-3/4 across at the base.......

Craig
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on April 29, 2011, 06:04:52 AM
 :24: :24: :24: Just when you thought it was safe to cross the street!

In any case, we now have start date and end date (1918-1990) - the only question is, who was JM Co.  - Importer? Who used the crossed swords?
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on April 29, 2011, 08:01:41 AM
 :hiclp:  excellent.  It isn't the piece I saw on my travels.  The one I saw was a bowl/vase and I'm sure it was on a site of someone's photos.  It was attributed to Kralik I'm sure.  I'll have another look through later to see if I can find it.
,
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on April 29, 2011, 01:13:51 PM
Maybe someone with the Glassmarken Lexicon can investigate for us.....

I have seen the label on a couple of other pieces and it is much closer to the 1918 date than the 1990 date.... and.....  I just realized I had this in my archive of Marks and Labels on vases I have been accumulating.....  It has been there so long I did not remember I had it.......  They are pieces in a friends collection.....  One has the label....

Craig
Title: Czech opalescent glass--anyone know anything about the MJ Company?
Post by: albglass on May 02, 2011, 04:52:11 AM
This opalescent candlestick has a black and white sticker on the bottom.  It is a glass mark shown in Barta and Rose's book, Czechoslovakian Glass and Collectibles Book II on page 157, except that the authors copied the company name incorrectly.  Their mark showed Mco in the corners, while the label has a definite J under the M so the correct company name would be MJ company.  Does anyone know anything about this company--for instance, whether they were based in Czechoslovakia exporting glass, or based elsewhere importing Czech glass?  Thanks for your help! 
Title: Re: Czech opalescent glass--anyone know anything about the MJ Company?
Post by: Ivo on May 02, 2011, 06:20:36 AM
I read it as JM Co. and the "Co." part is not Czech - so I would suspect it to be an importer's label rather than a maker's one.
Title: Re: Czech opalescent glass--anyone know anything about the MJ Company?
Post by: albglass on May 02, 2011, 04:27:11 PM
Ah, yes, I can see where it is more likely to read JM.  No wonder I wasn't getting anywhere finding any information on the company.  Also knowing that Co would not have been used by a Czech firm is important information.  Thanks, Ivo!
Title: Re: Czech opalescent glass--anyone know anything about the MJ Company?
Post by: Anne on May 02, 2011, 09:17:14 PM
albglass I've merged your topic into an earlier one which has info of relevance to yours - including more examples of this type of glass and the label.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on May 02, 2011, 09:34:34 PM
Ivo, I meant to say your vases are beautiful!!
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: albglass on May 03, 2011, 05:22:25 AM
Gee, I had no idea when I bought the candlestick that the country of origin for Target Swirl was not well known.  The seventh edition of the Standard Encyclopedia of Opalescent Glass said it was speculated that the pattern was Bohemian so I figured someone had some information about it, although they hadn't listed a candlestick as a known shape (known to the author, that is).  I guess the label on the candlestick proves that this pattern came out of Czechoslovakia, cool!  I still am curious about the importer, though.  I'd love to know from which companies the importer was buying Czech glass.  Craig, you mentioned that some of your friends have glass with this same label.  Do you happen to know if any of them can be tied to any Czech makers?  Are any of them the Harlequin opalescent pattern (diamonds within diamonds)?  I am afraid that this is much too much to hope for, but you never know.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on May 03, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
No, We do not know the importer of the glass, only that it was manufactured in Czechoslovakia......  I was the under bidder by the way....   :thud:

Craig
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: albglass on May 03, 2011, 05:02:57 PM
So sorry Craig.  I wanted another example of Bohemian opalescent glass for a book that I have been working on for the past 10 years on glass decorative techniques (I already have a blue uranium glass rosebowl in the Harlequin pattern).  I will be doing the photography this year and hope to publish next year (or at least get it to the publisher next year).  Although the book includes a lot of glass from other collections, I have around 1300 pieces of my own that I acquired specifically for the book.  That's really too much to display as they deserve to be displayed, so I will be selling many of them once the book is out, probably on Ebay if Ebay is still around then.  So you may have another chance at getting the candlestick sometime down the road!  I just want to say that you folks on the glass message board are a wealth of information and I can't thank you all enough for helping me with some difficult attributions as well as providing the general glass collecting community an incredible service.  You folks are the best!   :rah:
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Glas Vasen on May 08, 2011, 04:09:57 PM
Guzzini Glass from Italy has too dose Swirl thingy and Band Glass(in any Colours), as well he selling spaghetti and Deserts Bowl.

Ivo did u use it yet?

Question if the rim is polished means this a New Piece, or is this usual for older bowls.


Sergio
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on May 08, 2011, 05:49:52 PM
In Czech glass you often find polished rims, as this is an efficient way of finishing a piece. The process if somethings called "blown from the top" - but not everyone likes that term. It means that a piece is blown in a mould and cracked off - the final operation is then polishing the top smooth.  The alternative is to hot finish the rim with tongs. It is more elegant, but requires an additional operation, namely a pontil rod, as well as cracking off the pontil rod and finishing the mark.

Both methods have been used by all glass makers everywhere. You do not spend more work on a piece than necessary. And it is not an indication of age, only quality. Incidentally, if a piece has a polished rim AND a pontil mark, it may be reworked, as it makes no technical sense.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on November 05, 2012, 12:35:03 PM
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/73422-muhlhaus-haida?in=442

I can't see the exact link between the label on the candle stick and the 'maze' or spaghetti vase on the left and the Mulhaus label on the other pieces, however I thought I'd put this link on here for reference.
According to Truitts Collectible Bohemian Glass 1880-=1940, Mulhaus was a refiner and existed from 1867 to c.1945. and 'Mulhaus specialised in the decoration of high quality blanks made by the best glass makers- Harrach, Meyr's Neffe and Loetz'. 
I can't see how the 'maze' pieces would have been 'refined' after blowing though?  Surely those pieces were all hotworked blown glass and there is no further decoration?
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 05, 2012, 12:50:30 PM
I agree with everything you say. The link is tenuous unless we know that candlestick label is Mulhaus. The monogram seems to include an M though.

The spaghetti stuff definitely requires no refining.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on November 05, 2012, 03:45:38 PM
The label has been confirmed as being Mulhaus.... It is shown under Mulhaus in the Glasmarken Lexicon.  The letters on the lablel J M Co.  Julius Mulhaus Company.

It has also been brought up that many of these opalescent pieces were actually produced by Harrach and distributed by Mulhaus and others. This was brought up by Brian Severn in a conversation on Collectors Weekly. That piece of glass had basically the same pattern as the vase and candlestick shown in the link above.

Here is a link to that conversation.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/62386-harrach-opalescent-vase?in=442

Craig
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on November 05, 2012, 03:55:48 PM
Thanks Craig  :)
and Ivo's has the same pattern I believe.  So is it still not a definite Harrach id , but still remains as Harrach produced many of these opalescent pieces?  or could this be a confirmed id for Ivo's vase please?
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on November 05, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
Hi Miranda,

According to Brian, these are Harrach produced pieces.

Craig
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on November 05, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
Many thanks  :)

Craig if you have time can you take a look at this thread please? I just wondered if my vase might help id these pieces because of the shape maybe.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,38715.msg214011.html#msg214011
thank you
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: obscurities on November 05, 2012, 05:23:08 PM
I had seen that, and have been aware of the original piece of glass in that thread for several years now. I have never been completely comfortable with any particular attribution for that piece of glass.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on November 05, 2012, 05:29:30 PM
thank you  :)
I'll keep looking.  It's very hard to tell because it could just be that they are extremely close (and we have no daylight here at the moment so I can't double double check again) but I believe it is the same colour and iridescence as the pinky red textured one I posted.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on May 10, 2013, 07:11:50 AM
Ivo, this was posted on CW yesterday.
It says the vase is from the 'Floret' line from Harrach c1890.
I believe the pattern is the same or indeed incredibly similar to your bowl :)
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/89976-harrach-floret-glass-vase-circa-1890-fr?in=442
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Ivo on May 10, 2013, 10:25:28 AM
I'm delighted to have a definite ID - thank you for keeping your eyes open.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on May 10, 2013, 01:33:26 PM
You're welcome  :)
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on May 11, 2013, 07:37:17 PM
I'm curious about this identification as the linked one on CW being from the 'Floret' range at Harrach. 

The one I've found in the Passau book band IV Das Bohmische Glas is opalescent with a slight yellowy tinge as far as I can see and has a flower pattern on it and a crimped rim - it looks like a Walsh Walsh opalescent vase.  There is quite a difference in the design of them, although they are both opalescent glass with a pattern on.

I wonder was all the opalescent range called Floret? It's just that 'Floret' seems to imply 'floral' and the 'maze' design vases don't look very floral. I don't have the Harrach book only the Passau with the floral vase in it.
m
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: Mike M on May 15, 2013, 01:30:04 PM
Looking at the Harrach book -sadly only the Czech version-  there is a reproduction of a page probably an original design page with 12 different such opal patterns and the page is called 'floret' so it looks to be a range.
Title: Re: Opal spaghetti bowl
Post by: flying free on May 15, 2013, 10:16:24 PM
Thank you for looking and confirming it Mike :) 
I'm trying hard not to buy books that aren't in English at the moment.  I have many in German and my German is just not good enough (understatement lol) to get all the understanding without having to use translate ... which then gives me very odd translations and so I never know whether I'm getting the right explanation or not.  I definitely couldn't manage one in Czech.
m