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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Jim Sapp on February 13, 2007, 11:38:03 PM

Title: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 13, 2007, 11:38:03 PM: Hi everyone,

Does anyone have any information on Webb's Alexandrite? I am particularly interested in dates of production and any patent information. According to published sources, I have it narrowed down to 1901-02 but would like to be more specific if I can.

Here is what I am trying to research: http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite.jpg (http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite.jpg)

Any and all help appreciated.

Jim
www.fairylampclub.com
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Frank on February 14, 2007, 12:09:30 AM: Hi Jim,

I don't think that piece is Webb's Alexandrite, or at least not from that photograph. The highest edge should be blue from the side but if you look directly at this edge the richest chocolate brown colour will appear. One of the most stunning dichroic effects I have ever seen. The first reheating of the upper portion led to the amber body changing to red and the second reheating of the top of the glass changing to blue.

The only example I have handled of this very rare glass is actually shown on plate 38 page 316 of Hajdamach, British Glass 1800-1914. Unfortunately he only gives the briefest account and only suggests turn of the century. Perhaps 13 years on more information has come to light.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 14, 2007, 12:19:33 AM: Thanks Frank,

The top most color is indeed a deep violet blue. It is very difficult to photograph, especially while sitting in my cabinet.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume it is Alexandrite. All my reference materials only give minimal information. I was hoping to find additional details of Webb's production.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Piper on February 14, 2007, 04:35:58 AM: I really have no light to shed on the subject. I just wanted to say, "WOW!!" That is one beautiful piece of glass!!
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: mrvaselineglass on February 14, 2007, 04:45:40 AM: I have only seen a couple of pieces of Webb's ALEXANDRITE. One way to tell for sure if it is Webb's Alexandrite is to use a black light on it. the pale yellow at the bottom will glow green under a blacklight. Webb must have used a little uranium in their formula. I have not found any other product that goes by the name of Alexandrite (and there are several) or amberina "wannabees" that will glow green. This probably does not answer the question, but it is the only thing I can add to this discussion.
Dave
aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: nigel benson on February 14, 2007, 02:03:34 PM: Hello,

This is NOT Alexandrite. It may well be by Thomas Webb, but it does not have the correct colouring - as Frank suggested.

There were 10 pieces in the two Michael Parkington sales back in 1997/98 - I handled all of them (Pt I - lots 281, 2 & 3; Pt II - lots 302, 03 & 04) I have owned three pieces, and have been lucky enough to handle others.

The correct colouring is: rising from citrine, going into rose pink, then into blue and, finally a chocolate brown rim. Most pieces are thin, which would probably make them unsuitable for such use. This would also suggest that the colouring on the night light is "up-side-down", since the rose pink is within the body and the citrine toward the rim. There appears to be no blue and it is doubtful that there is a chocolate brown rim from what can be seen in the photo.

True Thomas Webb Alexandrite commands substantual prices, so I don't think it is advisable to assume it to be that rare commodity. If the colouring for all four constituants is poor, or the chocolate brown is missing, then the value is commensurately (even substantually) less.

As for reference sources, I'm afraid little has been written about the subject. Yes, Hajdamach "British Glass", also, earlier, and with less accurate information, "Decorative Victorian Glass" by Cyril Manley - otherwise I cannot recall any other source at present.

Nigel
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on February 14, 2007, 08:31:01 PM: Jim — More sources, some with good quality colour photographs:-

From Woodward, H.W., "Art, Feat and Mystery" — The story of Thomas Webb & Sons, Glassmakers, Mark + Moody Limited, Stourbridge, 1978, p.32 (no illustration):-

Alexandrite

Alexandrite was one of the shaded glass-wares which became popular at the end of the 19th century, being a transparent glass shading, by re-heating, from yellow to rose-red and then to blue. Corning Glass Museum, New York has a specimen as well as the Glass Collection at Stourbridge.

Webb's Alexandrite is not to be confused with that of Stevens and Williams, Brierley Hill, the latter having a body of transparent yellow, cased with blue and rose-red, which was cut to various depths by the decorator.

Also, from Gulliver, Mervyn, Victorian Decorative Glass — British Designs, 1850–1914, 2002, p.256 (with good quality colour photograph):-

A small punch cup ... in Alexandrite ...

Also, from Newby, Martine S., From Palace to Parlour — A Celebration of 19th-Century British Glass, The Glass Circle, 2003, exhibition item No. 190 (with good quality colour photograph):-

190. Thomas Webb & Sons 'Alexandrite' plate that is shaded from straw opal in the centre through fuchsia pink to blue at the frilled rim, ...

For the sake of completeness, S&W Alexandrite cameo is illustrated in R.S. Williams-Thomas, The Crystal Years, and in Sotheby's 3/3/98 sale catalogue of the RB collection.

Finally, I've checked Strange & Rare for Alexandrite, and I am reasonably certain that there is no reference to it. I can't think of any other likely sources.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: pamela on February 14, 2007, 09:15:56 PM: Please, Moser Alexandrite glass is something completely different (imho) - Do glass collectors indeed have the same name for different glass chemistry :-\
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Frank on February 14, 2007, 09:19:03 PM: Very different Pamela, this thread is about Webb's Alexandrite.

Jim, might be an idea to try and get a better picture of your piece please. Does it have the chocolate brown edge effect?
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: pamela on February 14, 2007, 09:46:40 PM: I'm lost :'(
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Frank on February 14, 2007, 10:15:18 PM: Hi Pamela,

Not glass collectors confusing names this time but the same name used for differing types of glass by different glassmakers. I think there are discussion and examples of the other types here before but not any examples of Webb's version. Jims picture is a bit unclear on the colours yet, but in any case he is trying get information in Webb's Alexandrite irrespective of his piece being an example of it or not - although it would be very nice for Jim if it is. As can be seen above there is very little precise data currently published.

Stevens & Williams also produced a different Alexandrite.

Halama (Czech) use the term as a colour name.

Alexandrite by Boyd`s Crystal Art Glass

Alexandrite by Morgantown Glass Works

Others use Alexandrite to mean Neodymiun glass... it gets very confusing!

see also http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2195
and http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1247.0.html
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 14, 2007, 10:21:41 PM: I am impressed with this group!

I was not aware of the "brown edge" effect. The does indeed have a rich chocolate brown around the top opening. I had not noticed it until it was mentioned. The top upening is fire polished and the lower rim is wheel polished. I will do my best to get additional photos to show both the blue shading and the brown edge. (The brown edge could be difficult.)

One of the difficulties in getting a good photo of the color is the shape itself. Unless, you photograph from the "inside out" you are looking through two layers of glass. I suspect that is the reason it looks so dark to many of you.

Thanks for the tip on the brown edge.....I am very pleased.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 14, 2007, 11:13:09 PM: Here are a couple photos showing the colors of the fairy lamp shade. Photographing the blue (from the inside out) is a real problem for me. However, the brown edge is clearly shown. http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_Colors.html (http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_Colors.html)

Again, thanks for the tip on the brown edge!! :-)

P.S. I am not real familiar with this discussion board. Is there a way to be notified when someone replys to a thread you are participating in?
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: nigel benson on February 14, 2007, 11:45:37 PM: Hiya,

Well, that'll teach me to be more like my normal circumspect self ??? Ok, ok, take away the NOT from my entry above. So, it wasn't up-side-down at all; just not possible to discern the colour change - ain't that top and rim deep in colour(s)?

You're a lucky guy, Jim!!

'night all, Nigel
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 15, 2007, 12:05:56 AM: I have put all the known references to Alexandrite on-line at http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_References.html (http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_References.html) As you all have pointed out, very little is known about Webb's Alexandrite.

It is interesting to note that none of the references mention the "brown edge" effect. Is it safe to assume it is a "signiture" of Alexandrite? Or, is it an artifact produces by the skills, or lack of skills, of the glass maker? Does anyone know what causes the brown edge? Any ideas what might be in the glass formula?

So many questions.....so little time.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Anne on February 15, 2007, 12:31:05 AM: Quote from: Jim Sapp on February 14, 2007, 11:13:09 PM
P.S. I am not real familiar with this discussion board. Is there a way to be notified when someone replys to a thread you are participating in?

Hi Jim,

Notifications were off whilst we fixed (hopefully fixed!*) a few issues with them. They are now back on across the board so when you post a reply you can either tick the box below the reply screen to be notified of replies, or you can click the Notify button top right of a topic to be notified of new posts in the topic, or top right of a forum to be notified of new posts in that forum. Hope this helps. :)

* If anyone still has problems with notifications please start a new topic for my attention in the Cafe, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 15, 2007, 12:40:02 AM: Thanks Anne! You were very helpful.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: mrvaselineglass on February 15, 2007, 03:39:32 AM: Jim
Did you do the blacklight test? I would be interested to hear the results.
Dave
aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 15, 2007, 03:52:45 AM: I'm sorry Dave, I don't have a blacklight. However, there are several "rock shops" close by, perhaps I could use one of theirs. If I get access to one, I'll let you know the results.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on February 15, 2007, 09:27:18 AM: Jim — I realised that I omitted two useful pieces of information from one of my sources. Here is the full extract (my additions in square brackets):-

Newby, Martine S., From Palace to Parlour — A Celebration of 19th-Century British Glass, The Glass Circle, 2003, exhibition item No. 190 (with good quality colour photograph, taken at an angle which clearly shows the deep chocolate brown rim):-

190. Thomas Webb & Sons 'Alexandrite' plate that is shaded from straw opal in the centre through fuchsia pink to blue at the frilled rim, polished pontil mark underneath the base.
Stourbridge, late 19th century
Rim diameter 15.5 cm [6"]

Extremely rare type of heat sensitive glass that is basically straw-coloured but which can be reheated at the furnace mouth to produce a fuchsia pink and then further reheated to produce the blue. It has been estimated that all the know[n] examples of this type of glass may have come from a single batch.

This exhibition was held at The Wallace Collection, London. Simon Cottle, Head of Glass at Sotheby's, was then the Chairman of the Glass Circle, and contributed the detailed introduction and acknowledgements sections of the book, so must have been aware of the final sentence above.

I find the implications interesting. Are they suggesting that the Webb factory was unable to repeat this beautiful glass, perhaps because of an unknown contaminant, or a mistake in the weighing out of the raw materials?

BTW the book is excellent. I have two copies, and would buy a third if I found a second-hand example at a reasonable price, as I wear out books. It may still be available new through membership of the Glass Circle, and possibly from Broadfield House Glass Museum, although I cannot find it on their website.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Frank on February 15, 2007, 03:20:37 PM: Stretching my memory Jim, the piece I handled was owned by Parkington at the time and he was very pleased to have this, and other examples which at that time were on loan to a museum. As I recall he said that the effect was "due to a very percentage of gold in the formula", he had extensive archives and with so many examples of Alexandrite in his possession must have had something to back that statement up. I presume his archives to now be in Broadfield House.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 15, 2007, 04:45:36 PM: Hmmm...my memory is stretched trying to remember what I had for breakfast.

Thanks for the additional information. I don't know much about glass formulas but gold seems to make sense.

FYI: I have replaced the first showing trying to show the blue color with another I think is better (couldn't be any worse). The new image is on the same website http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_Colors.html (http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Temp/Alexandrite_Colors.html)

Thanks for all your help. Let me know when you find a matching base for this fairy lamp. ;)

Jim.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: KevinH on February 15, 2007, 04:49:49 PM: Frank's keyboard missed a word:
Quote
... a very percentage ...
I assume this was either "a very low" or "a very high" percentage ... and I presume "high".

And was Parkinson's remark about the overall colour gradation, which is what I suspect, or was it only about a particular part, such as the fuscia or the brown?
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Frank on February 15, 2007, 05:40:23 PM: Indeed high percentage. I think in particular he was talking about the dichroicism... so the chocolate edge. But the gold went throughout the metal of course.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 15, 2007, 09:09:18 PM: Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your help. Thanks to you I was able to put together a short article for the Fairy Lamp Club Newsletter. Since I made reference to your comments, I thought it only proper that I give you a preview of the article for your review and comment. Please let me know if I left something out or made a mistake.

The article is at http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Alexandrite_Article.html (http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/Alexandrite_Article.html)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: KevinH on February 15, 2007, 11:39:37 PM: Jim,

Just one probable typo for you, at the start of the article ...
Quote
At first, I did appreciate the significance of this "rather plain" fairy lamp.
From the context, I think you meant
Quote
At first, I did not appreciate ...
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on February 20, 2007, 04:33:48 AM: Jim — At the Cambridge Glass Fair on February 18, 2007, there was a tiny (about 3½") Alexandrite posy vase on display, at least until it sold. All the colours were exactly as described above, and it weighed very little.

This was of bulbous shape with a very deeply crimped vertical rim. The body had been decorated using Webb's "Ball Mould" (also known as "Old English") pattern mould, which Hajdamach dates to 1903 at the earliest, slightly later than other suggested dates for Webb's Alexandrite.

It's the first time I've knowingly seen Alexandrite apart from the plate in the 2003 exhibition, which I don't remember, and it gave me great pleasure to handle something so beautiful.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 20, 2007, 04:42:17 AM: That sounds great! I am not familiar with the term "Pea dip mold". Do you know of a reference that shows what it is?
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on February 20, 2007, 05:15:59 AM: Jim — Apologies, I had given the mould the wrong name, now corrected.

Hajdamach shows it on p.433 as a diagram. I can't find a photograph in either Hajdamach or Gulliver.

It looks like tiny split peas stuck on to the surface, more spaced out than a "Pea" mould. You would get a similar effect if the glass was blown into a mould with small circular holes in it.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on February 20, 2007, 10:54:00 AM: Jim — Apologies again. I had made the unwarranted assumption that the pattern mould was a one-piece dip mould. It may have been, but also it may have been a three-sided opening mould. I've found nothing in the published literature on this aspect of these pattern moulds, and my own limited experience here in England and on Murano has been solely of one-piece rib moulds, which I have seen in use on several occasions.

The error has now been corrected in maroon to highlight it.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on February 20, 2007, 01:21:07 PM: Thanks for the clarification.

Not to change the subject too much.....has anyone seen any examples of "pressed" Alexandrite by Webb. I am assuming all the Webb examples are either free blown or mold blown.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on April 14, 2007, 10:38:37 PM: Quote from: mrvaselineglass on February 15, 2007, 03:39:32 AM
Jim
Did you do the blacklight test? I would be interested to hear the results.
Dave
aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass

Hi,

It has been some time since we discussed this piece of Alexandrite. However, I have found someone with both a long and short wave blacklight. The Alexandrite does indeed fluoresce a green/yellow under long wave blacklight. It also fluoresces under short wave but not as brightly. The geologist that help me suspected uranium oxide produced the green/yellow florescence. He suspected either cobalt or iron oxide produced the blue color. But, his specialty is "rocks" not glass.

An added note, seeing my Burmese under a professional blacklite was a real treat. Glows like you wouldn't believe.

Jim.

Jim.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: mrvaselineglass on April 15, 2007, 01:25:29 PM: Jim
I suspected it would glow. If nothing else, that confirms that you do indeed have a piece of alexandrite, and not something else. Webb used uranium dioxide in their 'alexandrite' color, as opposed to Stevens & Williams, who did not.

Thanks for the info!

Regards
Mr. Vaseline Glass
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Moultermike on November 01, 2010, 02:08:49 PM: I don't have a piece of Webb's Alexandrite, but I purchased a couple of vases recently which shade to violet at the top in the same way that Webb's Alexandrite does. I always examine "Alexandrite" glass with a spectroscope, which easily picks out the neodymium which is used in normal dichroic Alexandrite. My new bits don't contain neodymium, so the colour comes from some other source.

The general form of the colouring in Webb's Alexandrite is consistent with the glass containing a colloidal metal which becomes visible when the glass is re-heated at the glory hole. (This is done with colloidal gold in Amberina glass). I haven't been able to discover what that metal is, but I will keep searching for information.

I have tried a Geiger counter on a piece of probable Webb's Alexandrite. It was radioactive, which is consistent with uranium glass.

I notice that Locke's July 24th 1883 patent for Amberina glass apparently mentions other colours. I don't have a copy of that patent but it is probably worth getting one.
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Jim Sapp on November 01, 2010, 03:17:53 PM: Quote from: Moultermike on November 01, 2010, 02:08:49 PM
I notice that Locke's July 24th 1883 patent for Amberina glass apparently mentions other colours. I don't have a copy of that patent but it is probably worth getting one.

Thanks for information. I have put a copy of Locke's 1883 patent for Amberina on-line for your reference. It does indeed refer to other colors. The Patent is at:

http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Temp/Amberina_Locke_282002_072483.pdf
Jim.
www.fairylampclub.com
www.fairylampforum.com
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Moultermike on November 02, 2010, 08:36:45 AM: Thanks, Jim. I note speculation about the metal used to make the blue/violetcolour. It isn't cobalt blue or manganese amethyst. I have never come across iron making a blue colour; it usually gives green (+2 oxidation state) or brown (+3 oxidation state). I have come across references to tellurium being used for blue glass. The chemically related selenium is used for red, which it probably produces in the colloidal state. The best way to discover the metal responsible would be for someone with a piece of Webb's Alexandrite to chat up a friendly contact with access to the analytical technique of X-ray fluorescence. That can pick up all the chemical elements present in a sample, except for the lighter ones, which can be ignored in this case. It is a non-destructive technique.

Moultermike
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Bernard C on November 02, 2010, 09:17:08 AM: Quote from: Moultermike on November 02, 2010, 08:36:45 AM
... It is a non-destructive technique. ...

Over here word already went round a year or two ago to look for and keep any broken example of Alexandrite (or any other heat sensitive glass) for analysis. It's worth reminding everyone.

That was good of you, Jim, to put this interesting Patent online.

Some caution should be used when reading Locke's patent as patents and design registrations are often more widely embracing than the patentee's actual state of development. Some over here go even further and are deliberately misleading — for processes that are known not to work, for example — as patents and design registrations are very public documents and are often reproduced in full in the trade press. Anything to gain an advantage over your competitors, both in the home and international marketplace.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Webb's Alexandrite
Post by: Moultermike on January 21, 2011, 03:05:16 PM: This morning I and a student at the university of Kent at Canterbury did some spectroscopy on a Webb's Alexandrite wine glass. I had established previously that the body of the glass was radioactive, so the yellow is caused by uranium. W.W. Weyl in his book "Coloured Glasses" (ISBN 0-900682-06-X), gives three possible ingredients for purple glass; manganese, nickel and titanium. The maximum spectral absorption of the purple in the wine glass was near 575nm, which is consistent with titanium, but not with manganese or nickel. He stresses the difficulty of reducing titanium to the purple (+3) form. However, I suspect that re-heating in a chemically reducing atmosphere, or even covering the edge of the glass with oil and re- heating it, would form purple Ti3+.

I suspect, therefore, that Webb's Alexandrite is based on uranium and titanium, though X-ray fluorescence would be needed to confirm this.