Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on November 29, 2012, 10:42:53 AM
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I bought this sweet little vase recently as I have no iridescent glass in this colour. I think it's old, there are some bubbles in the glass and little dark specks and some wear to the base. I've searched all my books and online and the only thing I could think of was it might be Loetz Candia Silberiris? It's 3 3/4" tall and has a polished pontil mark and a firepolished rim. It has a small foot, the iridescence appears 'crackled' and the handles were applied afterwards as they are not iridescent.
Any thoughts much appreciated and thank you for looking.
m
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Stunning bit of glass m.
Looks like a good shout to me (for what it is worth), can we have a photo of the finish?
John
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new pics attached -thanks for looking :)
m
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I wonder how tall this one is (https://46798ddf-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/loetzglass/loetz-page-3/2handleCS.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7crNzn0iCCzW96--IX-RaakzhYwsEUTwGk0Bo3HVpJdO1XTx7ktW3xQAJg3rJckspLyuhc4nv1YfaPpcO7i1N55XFhfnGC7R9exL7hLy8x2zgwt07OyGF0Gagp0mz2_KDddorSu3uSPdZQO015ABFUK6M1b6OmZ1Kz8L-Vos1mkoP901XvRtsB1ypUIc_1JKRLuIyJXjcuiD14pdx7ah2A6SFhImwOIQNOFed2ZjRx78LHQyin8%3D&attredirects=0)?
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Small I would guess. It looks very comparable to my Olympia in many ways
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I did come across that one or at least one the same as that on my travels :) I think it was a cabinet vase as well.
However mine does not have iridised handles :-\
m
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http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/63996-2-handled-loetz-candia-silberiris-vase
I think this is the same vase as John linked to.
My decor looks slightly more transparent than most I can find and also the handles are not iridescent.
m
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I've been searching for something else and came across this vase attributed as Loetz Olympia (it's damaged). It has plain non iridised handles and immediately I thought of my little vase. There's no reference for the shape and attribution (and I don't know for sure I'm afraid) but assuming it is Loetz Olympia, then I thought I'd add it here as a reference of a Loetz iridescent vase that has handles non iridised - just so I don't forget for future ref :)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Loetz-Olympia-Art-Nouveau-Double-Handled-Vase-c-1898-/251053602171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a73f5f57b
m
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The awful pix make it hard to decide whether it is Olympia...
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they do. It's a funny silvery-blue green finish that I have on one of my Olympia vases though. I've had three, two with a similar warmer green finish (one which I still have) and another that appears to be a different colour and is this bluey green, much cooler looking. I always wondered whether they were from different periods in production.
m
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I've found another that has non-iridescent handles - I know it's not the same decor as my vase, but I just need to add them here for reference so I don't forget or lose the links :)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11548453_loetz-olympia-art-glass-vase
m
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Probably Bohemian, but I would say definitely not Loetz Candia Silberiris. Silberiris was a process resulting in a generally opaque surface decor. I am attaching images of a couple of examples of Candia Silberiris. The Candia, refers to the ground color, so it is possible for Candia Silberiris to be slightly different colors depending on the surface treatment.
Craig
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thank you Craig :)
I was just about to post that I still was concerned about the decor on my vase as it is too see-through. Lovely examples you've posted - very envious.
Could it be Loetz at all? or is that unlikely with the surface finish do you know please?
]Edited - I've just reread your post and I assume from the wording it's not Loetz :) - sorry.
m
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Hi M, Don't be envious, as they are images I have been provided for the website..... or be envious, but of the people that own them, not me.... :-)
Craig
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No, I'm not envious really - envy is never a good thing :) they are lovely though.
Ok, I've been doing some searching and the iridescent finish on my vase seems to me to be the same as the finish on quite a few Fritz Heckert vases I've come across.
There is a Fritz Heckert enamelled vase here that looks similar to Christine's Loetz Olympia gourd shaped vases and the finish on the surface and the transparency and iridescence seems very similar to my vase. It is not the same finish as the finish on my Loetz Olympia vases - did they come with different effects on the surface finish? I've looked at a few others as well also Fritz Heckert and found some with that surface finish.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bohemianglassandmore/5267135379/in/pool-1537970@N25%7Cbohemianglassandmore
If you click on the picture it enlarges well enough to see the crackly finish.
And here is a blue one that appears to have the same finish?
http://shop.strato.de/epages/61231908.sf/en_US/?ViewObjectID=1307964
Any thoughts much appreciated :)
m
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I would say that is a Loetz Olympia base decorated by Heckert. Mine have the slightly crackled finish.
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thanks :) as a matter of interest is yours completely smooth to touch? as though it might slip through your fingers like a piece of fine silk?
I've just got one of my vases out and even with the camera I cannot get a crackly finish on it. It is so incredibly smooth to look at and to touch it has no texture at all. I presume just a different surface finish,perhaps different time periods or something?
I'm just interested because the finish on my small vase is quite remarkably similar to many of the iridescent enamelled vases from Fritz Heckert.
Here is another where you can get a close up of the finish -
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/images-large/120-b.JPG
I've uploaded a picture of a very close close up of my Olympia. It's not as transparent as your vases and even trying with different lighting techniques I can't make it look crackled. I guess this is just variations in technique of making.
I've noticed also that quite a few of the Fritz Heckert vases I've seen have this shallow rounded little foot.
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/images-large/81-a.jpg
m
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I don't think yours is Olympia; the colour, the iridescence and the rim finish all look wrong
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Hi Christine
It was confirmed as Olympia and it also is a well documented Loetz shape. I'll find a ref for it on here in a mo.
I have had one other also a Loetz shape, in the same finish/colour exactly, that I sold, and I have yet another large vase here that is also Loetz Olympia but doesn't have that crackle finish iirc...I'm going to dig it out in a minute but I'm fairly sure it doesn't. That one is uranium glass whereas this one isn't and they are different to each other, ref the colours and iridescent highlights too .
m
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45711.msg255842.html#msg255842
here is the link to it on the board here.
And re my comment on that thread, I now believe that not all Olympia is uranium glass, as far as I recall from what I have read.
With reference the rim, they are mould blown and have a cut bevelled and polished rim. Loetz vases do have cut polished rims as well as firepolished rims.
m
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I have three of the gourd vases: all uranium, all with a fine stretch (crackle) finish, fire polished rims and polished pontil marks although all very slightly different. Maybe it's an age difference thing.
The finish on yours is completely different
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I'm just dashing out, but I've found my other one, firepolished rim, uranium glass, has a slightly different colouring green, a little warmer where this one and the one I sold are blue ier, but the finish on the iridescence is exactly the same as this one, no crackly finish/stretch effect finish, completely smooth.
Interestiing.. I will have a ponder on the way to the train station :)
m
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ok possibly an answer to the differences in the Olympia finish (see link) please scroll down the right hand side to see the comments on Loetz Glatt
https://sites.google.com/site/loetzglass/loetz
On the link it discusses Loetz Glatt and says that
'Glatt refers to the smooth finish on these pieces....' and also 'These came in many colors, including Creta, Olympia (a very pale green), Bronce (bronze), Luna (blue top fading to clear at the bottom) as well as some others.'
Therefore making an assumption here, that on that basis, my vases (at least the two that have the cut rim) may be Loetz Olympia Glatt - where Olympia refers to the colour and Glatt the decor.
I'm not entirely sure where that leaves my other uranium Olympia but I think that must also be Loetz Olympia Glatt.
And yours are called Loetz Olympia then? I'm not quite sure where that leaves my little vase with the same surface finish but a different colour :-\ but at least it seems the difference in our pieces is cleared up ;D
m
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Except when you blow some of the glatt pieces up you can see the stretch. I think it probably just means untextured
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To be honest I'm not sure I can see it to the extent it shows clearly on the gourd vase I linked to without it having to be enlarged :-\
Is this gourd shape a definite Loetz shape? or could it have been produced by Fritz Heckert ( as well as enamelled by Fritz Heckert in the case of the one I linked to)
m
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I have it as shape 7502, though I can't remember where I got that from
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thanks. . I've not managed to find a reference so far that says Fritz Heckert enamelled on Loetz blanks - that's not saying anything I know :), I'm probably missing something blindingly obvious, but just musing re info on my vase. It says in Truitt's that they initially used Josephinenhutte blanks to enamel on and in 1889 acquired their own glass hut and began to produce iridescent glass decorated in the Art Nouveau style (ref Truitt's Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 page 70).
I'll keep looking and thanks for the form number.
m
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adding to above
This listing says it is a documented form in books and gives the same form number as you have.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fine-LOETZ-Vaseline-GLASS-1898-OLYMPIA-Iridescent-GOURD-Uranium-VASE-Documented-/310524793251?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484cb851a3
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This is phanomen gre 7501 but the production no is 7502 (Is that the shape?). However it is a slightly different shape to yours, although again I don't know anything about the variations and shape as to whether that would be significant or not if you see what I mean? If indeed the 7502 refers to the shape.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/25984-early-loetz-phnomen-genre-7501-from-18
m
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Yes, Production Number refers to the shape as defined in the Loetz Musterschnitte drawings.
Although the ebay link is likely accurate for shape and decor, that particular seller may have the most consistently ridiculous prices on ebay for all kinds of glass.
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Craig thank you :) I have to say I'm finding it very difficult to work out what's what if the ebay listing is also correct for that shape - this is very confusing (well it is to me ;D ) as I can see definite shape differences between the vase on Collectors Weekly production no 7502 and Christine's vase, not just in the turned out rim finish but also in the actual shape of the body of the vase - they don't look like the same form to me at all :-\
This is another I found, again the same shape but clear/paler glass attributed to FH - is it likely Loetz did this clear iridescent finish please? and apologies, I feel like a dog with a bone lol, and it will probably turn out that my vase is not even FH anyway, so I'm sorry for keep going on about it :)
http://www.denieuwekunst.nl/public/detail.asp?screen=large&oid=263&cid=2
The only thing I am sure of is that the finish on my little vase appears to be the same (when comparing photos) as the surface iridescent finish on the Fritz Heckert vases I've looked at. Of course that doesn't mean mine is FH, but at least I can investigate that further :)
m
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I found this vase on one of the Bohemian Glass sites called 'Loetz and Bohemian Glass', and it is under the section 'unidentified makers or other makers' - this one is unidentified.
It is the same shape as Christine's gourd shaped vases, but dark blue with a thick gilded decorative pattern.
(see first link - right hand side scroll down to the eighth vase in the right hand column until you come to the dark blue gourd with gilded bands pattern)
I then found a vase in a different shape, but in the same iridescent dark blue with what I believe is the same gilded pattern on The Gilded Curio site, that has the vase identified as Fritz Heckert
(see second link)
I'm sorry to keep going on about this....and so far I've not managed to find the same vase shape as my own one yet however another vase on The Gilded Curio site appears to be the same colour and iridescent surface treatment on the blank and is also id'd as Fritz Heckert.
(see third link)
https://sites.google.com/site/loetzglass/otherunidentified
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-83.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-67.html
m
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Here is another shape of the blue iridescent same decor range (same as the gourd vase linked to above), same enamel design attributed by Botterweg in 2007 to Fritz Heckert.
http://www.botterweg.com/Auction/Bid/tabid/59/auctionid/5/tag/Duitsland/lotid/812/language/en-US/Default.aspx
And on this site there is a vase that has some similarities with mine: vaguely in the shape of the tall neck; and also the handles; and the way the iridescent surface is done.
http://www.littletoncollection.com/Glass%20Page/e157%20Heckert%20Poppy%20flask.jpg
m
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bingo ...I think - if someone could double check for me please.
According to Pressglas Korrespondenz May 2012-2
Abb. 2012-2/05-14
Kunst-Glas-Industrie Fritz Heckert, Petersdorf im Riesengebirge, Briefkopf o.J.
aus Żelasko, Fritz Heckert, Kunstglas Industrie 1866-1923, Glasmuseum Passau 2012, Einband Rückseite (Ausschnitt)
on page 18 there is a gourd vase that I believe is the same shape as Christine's. It is enamelled but appears to be the same shape, colour and iridescent finish on the blank.
According to the information given on that vase it is
"Kat.Nr. 251. Vase
Formentwurf Ludwig Sütterlin, 1900
Dekor-Entwurf Willi Meitzen
am Boden in weiß sign. FH 501/8 I
H 16 cm"
Translates as the mould design was by Ludwig Sutterlin for Fritz Heckert, and in the case of that particular piece with the enamel decoration as well, the enamelling was by Willi Meitzen. That one is signed on the base in white FH501/8I.
The description below that reads
"Goldcypern“, hellgrünes, goldirisiertes Uran-Glas, formgeblasen, geschliffen. Auf der Wandung braun und grün konturierter
Blütendekor in bunter opaker Email- und Goldmalerei. "
Translates as "Goldcypern, light green, gold iridescent uranium glass, blow moulded, sanded." and then a description of the enamel decor.
I guess those are the colours it came in - possibly there should be a comma between 'goldirisiertes' and ' Uran-Glas', so therefore it would read as two colours not one, with one being 'gold iridescent' the next being Uranium-Glas ? plus the previous two of Goldcypern and Light Green.
I can send a link to the reference source if necessary.
I'm convinced my little vase is also by Heckert in 'gold iridescent', but just need to find an exact shape match now.
m
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Just a correction on the colour I wrote above
the translation is
'"Goldcypern", light green, gold iridescent uranium glass' - I think the decor is "Goldcypern" and the rest is a description of that rather than individual colours.
m
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just adding a cross reference here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28526.msg288367.html#msg288367
This is a request I've put on another thread regarding a vase I found on Collectors Weekly, that has the same surface iridescent finish as mine but is a pale clearish glass, and is marked acid etched stamp 'GLASFABRIK KARLSBAD' - it has been id'd there as Moser.
I have a question.
Am I reading this right that this hasn't been definitely confirmed as Moser?
I'm trying to identify an iridescent cabinet vase that where the surface iridescence appears to be identical to Fritz Heckert iridescent vases. Mine is not enamelled just plain. In the course of my searches I came across this vase (see link) on Collectors Weekly identified as Moser. It has a very similar iridescent surface finish to mine, hence my interest.
I found it difficult to read the mark but it looks like it could read 'GLASFABRIK KARLSBAD' (please correct me if I'm wrong). Is this an identified mark for Moser please?
I'm just wondering where the blank vase on the Collector's Weekly site originated if so - I'm wondering if the enamelling is Moser but the blank not?
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/64363-moser-egyptian-vase
Many thanks
m
Edited later to add, I've enlarged the mark and found a confirmed stamp mark from the Great Glass site that it is Moser and edited my request on the other thread to ask if the blank is Moser as well as the enamelling.
m
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just a little correction: Geschliffen is cut, not sanded.
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thank you so much Ivo :)
Google translate is quite difficult to follow and I was struggling to understand what 'sanded' might mean :)
I wonder to what that refers? is it cut rims? or cut body of the glass?
m
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Christine and I were having a discussion earlier today about the iridescent ranges of glass produced by both Josephinenhutte and Fritz Heckert.
I thought I would add here what it I understand it says in the PK article regarding the ranges of both Glasshouses just for future reference:
As I understood it:
- Josephinenhutte were producing iridescent glass before FH and produced one range 'Gelb-Cypern' (Yellow Cyprus) in 1887, then 'Opal-Cypern' in 1890 and 'Bronze-Cypern' in 1897 (Fritz Heckert got their furnace in 1889)
-It goes on to say that at this time FH Petersdorfer employed more workers than JH and were huge and started producing huge quantities of glass and flooded the market. It says they produced an iridescent range called 'Cypern-glas' (very confusingly). I cannot find a date for when this range started being produced at FH but it does say I think, that 'Otto Tham started in 1895 with this iridescent glass'. I think it's possibly the start date for Fritz Heckert producing their range of 'Cypern-glas'?
I lean towards my vase being produced at Fritz Heckert Petersdorf because of the surface iridescent texture and the way the handles were applied. However, I've been really struggling to find examples of Josephinenhutte iridescent glass to compare.
I finally found this one (see link below) which is a small vase about 8cm high by 12cm wide - the iridescence is attributed as 'Opal-Zypern'. The photos aren't great but it looks a lot more shiny or smooth sheeny than the surface on my vase.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vase-Josephinenhutte-Serie-Opal-Zypern-Jelenia-Gora-1881-1900-/181041794832?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item2a26ee8f10
and a number in different colours here
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/52331-josephinenhuette-cypern-series-glass
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http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-JH-440.html
I think these have quite a lot in common with my little vase. It looks as though their handles aren't iridescent as well but difficult to see clearly. However mine has a polished pontil mark. They are under Josephinenhutte on the site.
m
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From another thread, Dirk has found some information that says the Heckert Cypern range blanks were produced by Josephinenhutte whether they are decorated or undecorated versions, and references Stefania Zelasko's new book on Fritz Heckert (I'll find the exact source and add it in a mo)
The link Dirk gave to the site where the information came from ( a seller called Neuwirth) also shows an image of a vase in blue selling as Fritz Heckert cypern, which is the same as Christine's gourd vase.
see here for Dirk's message
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52456.msg297779.html#msg297779
So based on that information, Christine's gourd vase would be designed by Fritz Heckert with the blank produced by Josephinenhutte :)
m
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Coming back to my original gold iridescent small vase with non-iridised handles :)
I believe this is my missing link -
This is identified as Fritz Heckert :)
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-Heckert-920.html
and
described as 'iridescent two handled miniature glass vase flowers Fritz Heckert. This piece is lightly iridescent'
It's not identical in form, but it is the same colour, the same light iridescence, the same type of iridescence, a similar size (miniature) and has non iridised handles and a similar neck. I think that's a definite yes to Fritz Heckert produced by Josephinehutte or at the very least, produced by Josephinenhutte with unknown designer. (See Dirk's comments re Josephinenhutte producing Cypern for FH above)
I can rest now ;D
m
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M, it is good that you have found a "missing link" for your vase.
But can an attribution in just one site be taken as a proven identity? That is not to say that I have any reason to query the entry in the GildedCurio site, but I am always wary of just one "missing link" being actual proof of anything, especially when an attribution has no comments to back it up.
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No it can't, not for public scrutiny.
I will continue to look for a referenced match for Alisa's piece (and mine).
But I'm happy with my attribution for me (which for 18months and 5 pages of thread I haven't been ;D )
Just to add another thing, Alisa's picture blow up really well and the glass has the same watery teardrop bubbles randomly spaced as mine does. You can see it mostly on the neck.
m
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Just adding this one from the V&A for future reference. The iridescence seems to be similar, the foot also and the applied handles in non-iridescent glass:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O273/vase-johann-loetz-witwe/
They have it as 'possibly Loetz' but then have additional information including other makers:
'Josephienhütte(sic - corrected to read Josephinenhütte ) in Bohemia and Rheinische Glashütten-Aktiengesellschaft in Köln-Ehrenfeld, Germany. Retailers included Ludwig Fellmer in Mainz, F. Schöneberg in Berlin (as here) and Tschernich & Co. in Haida (Bor)'