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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: glasshunter on October 02, 2009, 03:21:29 AM

Title: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 02, 2009, 03:21:29 AM
hi help please i found a jack in a pulpit it is 11.5'' tall  close up the horn looks identicale to the 4 or 5 pece tryhorn sets that you see it is saton light blue bubbles and it has a ring of glass around whare it meats the base value or maker thanks  bart
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Max on October 02, 2009, 11:19:35 AM
It is totally impossible to give you any advice with only your description to go on.  Please upload a photograph, if you need help then let me know.   :)

Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 02, 2009, 11:34:31 PM
ok the pictures are bad it was pitch black thanks bart
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: johnphilip on October 03, 2009, 08:53:01 AM
Thats nice i love the foot , i do not think Italian though . quite old i believe and quality . :thup:
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Max on October 03, 2009, 09:44:26 AM
What do you think it is if not Italian John, English?  I'm not sure about those bubbles, but I definitely bow to your greater knowledge!



Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: keith on October 03, 2009, 10:38:20 AM
Is that satin air trap or should I change my glasses?Keith.
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: johnphilip on October 03, 2009, 10:49:38 AM
I would think British late Victorian satin airtrap although this glass is not my strong point , i am sure Nigel or Bernard could add more . I would like it for Xmas along with a tee shirt with a picture of Max and me . ;D ;) >:D
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Max on October 03, 2009, 10:52:23 AM
Quote
I would like it for Xmas along with a tee shirt with a picture of Max and me . Grin Wink Evil

You're just weird!

Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: johnphilip on October 03, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
If you think i am weird see Max (Gina) thread re Cambridge Glassfair over on Whitefriars.com . I rest my case your honour . Someone at Cambridge said to me is that the weird bird from GMB that has dead owls flying out of her . :thup:
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 03, 2009, 12:03:19 PM
I agree, old and not Murano. We really need to see it in daylight and also a picture of underneath the foot.


You're both weird  :-*  :kissy:
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 03, 2009, 09:20:54 PM
i hope the pictures are better
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: snesbit on October 03, 2009, 11:07:00 PM
So, I'm going out on a limb here, as my last post felt like a little bit of a whoopin'

But, I bought this exact same piece a couple years ago at a shop in Wash, D.C.

I do carry quite a bit of Victorian diamond quilted satin glass and after close examination felt this piece was definitely Italian, 20th century and perhaps as new as the 1970's

The satin on the interior was rough, the crimping at the rim was of relatively poor quality, just didn't feel right for late 19th century.

ok, I'm ready for my next whoopin' now ...
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: keith on October 04, 2009, 12:10:23 AM
Phoenix glass and Mount Washington both did satin air trap,did the Fenton glassworks(saw on a site recently that Fenton are closing,is this true?)
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 04, 2009, 12:22:45 AM
i heard that an investor was keeping them going not sure. I'm about 60 miles from there.
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: johnphilip on October 04, 2009, 07:12:10 AM
I could also go with USA  IF its not British , but not Italian .
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: obscurities on October 06, 2009, 12:57:55 AM
It is really tough from the pics, but the blue, as it appears in the pics, strikes me as not being right for an older piece...... Could be the images though....  IMHO the "feel" of the foot does not strike me as old either with the satin ring. 

Craig
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 06, 2009, 01:59:18 AM
i was looking around for 4 a long while and MT WASHINGTON is as close as i have got but could it still be satin air trap stile
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 06, 2009, 02:17:21 AM
hi sorry i didn't see your post be for i spoke yes you are right on that base it is different then all that i saw.  the satin ring is on some of the MT WASHINGTON  jack in a pulpit vases but they are a smaller ring .
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 06, 2009, 02:22:35 AM
thanks Craig , or any one else that has any thoughts at all. i hope i can be of some help to others soon thanks
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: obscurities on October 06, 2009, 04:37:32 AM
In most cases I can recall the ring is generally the same color as the foot or the stem. In this case it is not.... that could be a minor point. Additionally the ring size on this pieces is noticeably larger than period examples I could find images of. Lastly, the exagerated shape of the foot also strikes me as much more contemporary..... It seems most period feet I am familiar with have a much more gentle slope and less pronounced rise than this piece.

Without handling it though, it is tough to really tell. 

Whatever the age, it is a pretty piece of glass.

Craig
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 06, 2009, 05:15:00 AM
Craig, thanks for sticking with it. you took me ferther than i could have hoped. just looking at the top the crimping and hevy iner thick white were these 2 with sume  simelaratys on  ebay  120368190945 and 390094435253 from the satin ring up.  thanks Bart
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: obscurities on October 06, 2009, 05:45:52 AM
Hi Bart, I looked at the two pieces you supplied numbers for on ebay, and I would agree that both of those pieces are early glass. The problem with this piece in comparison to those pieces was noted by Snesbit earlier. If you examine the crimping pattern on the two ebay pieces there is a quite well executed pattern to the upper vase portion where the crimping has occurred. The crimping is quite pronounced and is a pattern that includes all of the layers of glass being formed (if that makes sense).

In contrast to that, the crimping on your vase is quite crude and appears to be simply an indented line in thick glass.  This type of crimping on your vase, would be, IMHO a quality indicator that would make me lean further towards a contemporary production piece than a period piece. The quality of the crimping does not, to me at least, seem to be indicative of early production glass, but much more modern and rushed production......  It appears to me to quite quickly and haphazardly executed.

Additionally, the execution of the bubbles seems to be quite inconsistent, and there is a twist in the stem that I think also points towards fast production.... and not early glass...

Any one of the things I have noted could potentially be explained away as a single observation, but IMHO, the fact that there are several aspects of the design that point towards contemporary, I would have to go with that as my assessment. I do not know for sure if I would attribute it to being Italian, but I believe it to be reasonably contemporary....

Craig
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 06, 2009, 06:35:23 AM
Is it satin inside as well as out and under the foot? Is there much base wear?
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 08, 2009, 12:55:25 AM
Hi Christine, not much bottom ware maybe  the foot was blown from the top and then applied. i don't know wonder what is my next step is in finding a maker i got some great help hear. Bart
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Ohio on October 09, 2009, 11:31:38 PM
Bart it's Ken. I'll tell you what it isn't, its not Mt. Washington & neither is the one peppermint JIP with all those crimps. Mt. Washington was into subtle folds on their JIPs not crimps. The Burmese one is legit as I did an ask a question for a blacklight test & received a reply it reacted. Personally I think there is a very high probability it's Murano so line me up for a whooping too. For those who don't live in the US perhaps you are unaware that thousands upon thousands of Murano high end art glass fakes flooded the US from the early 60's into the late 70's until actual researched references on art glass started surfacing from actual catalogs. Fake cut velvet, air trap, MOP, burmese, peachblow, coralene, tiffany, lalique, I could go on & on. They targeted the US because were were largely uneducated & gullible & we coveted this stuff with no questions asked...I do not believe they targeted Europe to this extent. Fortunately I think we are a bit more educated now. I think the vast majority of all air trap we see in the US is Murano...very few of our companies in the mid 1890's to 1910 made air trap & certainly not in the quantities seen today.  If you go through the latest of Shuman's US art glass references you will notice he no longer attributes air trap, MOP, etc. to any specific US manufacturer & Sisk's Mt. Washington Art Glass reference with probably 250+ photos shows only one example of quilted AKA air trap Mt. Washington & these are 21st century references up to date in cooperation with private collectors & the better museum collections. Murano craftsmen/blowers were & still are are more than capable of mimicking a multitude of art glass designs especially air trap which is not exactly rocket science to them. My opinion only.       
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 10, 2009, 02:11:20 AM
Hi ken, thanks for taking a look i didn't know what air trap meant till this a few days ago but i do now.  i bought it thinking it was Italian. to me up close it is just bubbles in the glass deep not at the serface and not air trap some one thought it had the appearance of air trap more then likely my bad pictures. oh well just another lump of crap in my collection. see you Friday.      thanks bart
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: TxSilver on October 10, 2009, 03:49:52 AM
Bart, not crap. Just a variation on a theme. Glass people around the world have adopted each others' techniques throughout time. I also thought your vase might be Italian, but I didn't know. One company that did various "imitations" of the English and American styles was Fratelli Toso 1940s-60s. The pieces are usually undocumented and label-free. Occasionally one stumbles across one with a label. I've learned that one can spend days and weeks researching some of the pieces and come up with no results. I still wonder who might have done some of the pseudo-Burmese pieces that I have seen.

I think your vase is a fine one. There is one thing that would have made it better, IMO, and that would have been to have the ring flow into the rest of the foot. That is a bit awkward, isn't it? I have to speak up and say that I think it is a pretty vase and definitely not a lump of crap. :)
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: KevinH on October 10, 2009, 04:49:07 AM
Bart said:
Quote
to me up close it is just bubbles in the glass deep not at the serface and not air trap some one thought it had the appearance of air trap more then likely my bad pictures.

The foot of the vase does look like it has "just bubbles in the glass", but if you look more closely you will see shadowy outlines of the diamond pattern. It's just that the foot was not as well air trapped as the body. The body does show a diamond air trap pattern and the neck has the very typical stretching of the pattern that comes with the lengthening of the diamonds. Take a look at any air trap item that has a lengthening of part of the work and you will see the same effect - and it looks just the same even if the pattern is "herringbone" rather than diamonds. My English herringbone (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2389) (non-satin) air trap vase shows the effect pretty well. Mine is one of a pair, virtually identical to a smaller one with only one handle shown some years ago in the V&A museum and labelled as "Stourbridge".

As Anita says, yours is not a crap item. It's a good example of that style which I also think is more likely Murano than English or American ... but ???

And if anyone really does judge the "desirability" of such items by the thousand dollar prices asked on eBay for some of them, then perhaps I should offer my pair for sale - and make a really good profit. ::)
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Ohio on October 10, 2009, 06:03:20 AM
Bart definately not crap. These sell pretty well no matter who/whom made them as long as the quality is decent & your looks pretty decent to me. I know you've seen them in our malls in Central Ohio & if priced not terribly high they don't last long...they are a favorite. Ken
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Ohio on October 10, 2009, 06:20:51 AM
"I still wonder who might have done some of the pseudo-Burmese pieces that I have seen." There are two types of Murano Burmese, the older late 50's type is pretty darn good quality while the ones from the mid 60's through mid 70's almost always shade to beige/tan & in most cases the shading runs triple...in other words you will have pink shading to a pale gold then further down the piece shade to a light beige/tan. Good news is that of all the Murano I've tested (both periods) not a single example reacts...no Uranium Oxides...that is their flaw. I give a few presentations on art glass to glass groups & carry with me a legit Mt. Washington Burmese piece plus an example of the good quality 50's Murano Burmese (complete with a reproduction Mt. Washington label) & an example of the later Murano. One the good quality copy if you don't carry a blacklight, you always look for a tiny area of streaking that is whitish & it can be a razor thin line so you have to look the piece over very carefully. They had color breakdown on their reheat & its visible on most pieces of the good stuff. On the 2nd stuff...well its pretty easy...if you see light beige its 2nd generation. Ken 
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 11, 2009, 03:50:30 AM
Hi Ken, I wood love to attend a glass or art glass meeting.  i am sure that your help and added in-site is appreciated on this board !!!!!!!
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: Jurgen on October 12, 2009, 07:22:37 PM
Hi all...........I believe your Jack in a pulpit glass is true Murano glass made some time after WWII up to as late as the 60's sold mostly in larger down town department stores. In the Great Lakes area, where I live, most of the Murano glass was FT,AVEM, and alot of generic small glass house stuff. I think there is a good possability that your glass is FT. And yes, alot of people remove the labels because there is more money in American art glass! I hope these pictures help!.....................Jerry   
Title: Re: italian glass jack in a pulpit
Post by: glasshunter on October 12, 2009, 11:47:01 PM
Hi Jerry, thank you for taking the time to picture the items your help and in-site is appreciated!!!!!!!!! i have a fish block on the board that i didn't get much responce on about 2 weeks ago do you have any thoughts on it if you have a minute. thanks Bart