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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: Patrick on July 23, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
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Mdina earthtones has recently been discussed on a facebook group.
A bowl was shown and this comment was made by Raymond Sultana who worked with Vicente Boffo at MDG and then went to Mdina. I have his permission to quote his comment........
" In fact I used to make those bowls myself at Mdina Glass. What actually happened was that when Vincente joined MDG, he introduced the "Earth Colour" range and after MDG closed down, Mr Dobson took on his books most of the ex MDG workers. At that point in time he doubled the work force at Mdina Glass and with this package he also got the rights to produce the "Earth Colour" range. I am sharing this missing information to the Group to sort out some of the loose ends. "
I have attached images of MDG Earth Colour and also his version that he made at Mdina. He joined Mdina November 1978.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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It should be noted that the Mdina Ming range was being made at Mdina while Vicente was working there ........ so he must have developed it into the 'Earth Colour' when he joined MDG.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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Excellent info Patrick, I like the idea that the Earth colour was made at MDG first even if it was a variation on Ming :)
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Interesting.
So Michael Harris must have invented this colourway, but in a sprial formation, for Tortioseshell at IoWSG, independently of his work at Mdina, and much earlier.
Does anybody know when the bullet bowls stopped being made?
I had thought they were all early, at least only up until about the mid-70s, not as late as '78, but I'm happy to be corrected.
I'm asking, because I have an Earthtones Bullet bowl, with an unsual sideways zig-zag pattern, surely taken from the Zig-zags used as surface decoration
I'm not convinced.
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Earthtones is often found on some of the mid 1970s shapes, as is Ming and Tortoiseshell, much like this:
https://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mUW6zwvUHwWnqS6xGc4Trxw.jpg
Stopper is a replacement on this one: http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mzy4FBbexYTq9ydarMEL3FQ.jpg
John
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I have a piece dated 1974 which is most definitely earthtones.
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So the Earthtones concept must have been first taken from Mdina to MDG.
It's an original Harris design, executed differently by different makers.
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I think so yes, and I also believe it was created in the Harris period but that is just my own opinion based on what I have seen on my travels.
I think it is dangerous to take someone else's memories from 40 years ago as completely factual without researching the physical evidence to see if it supports their claims.
I am sure the person concerned has only positive intentions but our memory can play tricks on the best of us, particularly after the passage of so much time.
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Can you show your dated example please Nemmie?
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Hi,
I think my definition of 'Earthones' is different to that of Mdina collector......... I always see it as a brown colour trailed onto silver nitrate but a Mdina collector probably sees it as this http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/TEoAAOSwu0hZc7xP/s-l1600.jpg
The discussion we were having with Raymond was about the grid like pattern found at MDG and this being the precursor of the sloppy grid pattern, spiral and random patterns of Mdina .
Wolfie and I are chasing up other leads as to the origins of this patterning.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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That's Tortoiseshell to Mdina collectors not Earthtones
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That's Tortoiseshell to Mdina collectors not Earthtones
Thanks Christine......
Please could you show us a picture of what you would describe as Mdina 'Earthtones'
Cheers,
Patrick.
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Earthtones Mdina
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=590
Earthtones MDG
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=584
Mdina Tortoiseshell
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=594
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Thanks Christine,
Looks like you are seeing it the same way.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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What gets confusing is that the Mdina Earthtones colourway was renamed Tortoiseshell at IoWSG.
Mdina Tortoiseshell doesn't have the bubbly yellow. IoWSG Tortoiseshell does, and it was made at IoWSG pretty much from the start.
Marc now has a globe, with coachbolt pontil mark and signed by MH, so the date of that is certainly well before '78.
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Please could you show us a picture of what you would describe as Mdina 'Earthtones
Links to Earthtone photos were already provided.
It should be noted that the Mdina Ming range was being made at Mdina while Vicente was working there ........ so he must have developed it into the 'Earth Colour' when he joined MDG.
This statement is nonsensical to me. Earthtones has little connection to the blue/green of Ming though both were developed by Harris and they are often found on the same shapes.
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Links to Earthtone photos were already provided.
Hi John,
Yes I did see your links but my question was directed at Christine.........
Cheers,
Patrick.
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Hi John, I think the Ming and Earthtones are very similar and both use the same steps in their production. Apart from Earthtones is cased in clear and Ming in blue. The only other differences are the patterns created by the trailing and the colours used in the casing and trailing.
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The biggest difference would be the addition of silver nitrate to the trails of red glass to make it brown in Earthtones, that's an extra stage. Silver chloride would be added to the first gather in Ming, to create the bubbly internal yellow.
Both Ming and Earthtones are Harris designs.
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Both Ming and Earthtones are Harris designs.
Are we sure he did Earthtones at Mdina before he left ?
I am not looking to prove you wrong but for Raymond's recollections to be correct 'Earthtones' would have to be developed by Vicente from Ming whilst he was at MDG.
Cheers,
Ps I don't think it appears in the Dexam catalogue .
Patrick.
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Here are some early IoW studio pieces (from the glass museum on the IoW) ....I think Raymond was talking about the grid pattern at MDG turning to a more random design (less grid-like) on top of silver nitrate as a background ...starting as a design at Mdina from c1978 . As a variation of the spiral design seen at IoW studio glass.
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I think it would best not to bring IOW glass into this conversation as it is not relevant. This is about whether Earthtones started at MDG or Mdina.
I know it is traditionally thought that Earthtones was Harris but now due to mine and Patricks new research I think it is not. Just put Mdina Earthtones in google images and you can see all the pieces seem to be generally late 70s or 80s and as Patrick rightly pointed out Earthtones are not in the Dexam catalogue.
I have also sent Jim Munnelly (who left Mdina in Aug '75) the Earthtones vase pic Christine put up earlier and he didn't know Earthtones when he worked there and only had been aware of this range in the last few years.
I think the timeline on Earthtones now needs to seriously be reconsidered, as we may have another myth on our hands :)
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This IoW shelf is described as ' Tortoiseshell 1973 - 1983 ' , it's not easy to read the label in this photo. So it covers a period prior to 1978 and is very similar to 'earthtones' just in a spiral form .
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is it new information?.. I have just discovered that Mark Hill said earthtones is post Harris but mid 70s. Which fits with what I own but doesn't fit your story.
Scroll down this thread
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=9066.0
I think I will stick to his version of events as it matches the physical evidence.
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The evidence, physical, catalogue and from 2 ex-workers points to Earthtones starting at MDG. Mark Hill stated that Earthtones started after Harris left and roughly guessed the date as mid-70's, maybe it was late '70s, certainly looking at pieces in this colour it looks like it too.
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Can we see a picture of your dated piece please Denver
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Isle of Wight Studio Glass is absolutely relevant.
It proves, beyind any question of doubt, that Michael Harris was making this design of colourway in '73. That is real physical evidence.
Just because he did not make loads of it before he left does not mean it is not his design. He wasn't there for long.
I will stick with physical evidence rather than ancient hearsay.
Boffo chose to execute it in the grid formation, it's attractive and well done, but easier than random to make look good.
What confuses me about what is being said here is that it was previously reported that it was only Boffo who made the art glass pieces at MDG - this suggests there were other workers also making art glass bits.
Certainly, from the pieces I have that makes more sense.
I suspect he would have been working with somebody, training them whilst doing so. It would explain the lumpy thick flanges.
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Sue, Harris copied Mdina Tortoiseshell when he went to iow not Earthtones, these are different processes/colourways.
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He didn't copy any of them, they were his designs.
Mdina Tortoiseshell is just browns and reds, he did make a few bits at IoWSG, but mostly experimental early one-offs, a known example being a very thick inside-out.
IoWSG Tortoiseshell, made from '73, is the same colourway design as Mdina Earthtones.
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I'm not wanting to malign people but the "other worker" didn't leave school until 1976 and start at MDG in 1977 (as Boffo's assistant) and it closed down in 1978, when he went to Midina . Can you remember what you or your employer was doing when you were 16, 17, 18?
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I would strongly disagree, not only look different but they are made in a different way. Iow tortoiseshell is the same as mdina tortoiseshell which are both different earthtones. I will get some facts to prove this.
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Isle of Wight Tortoiseshell is completely different to Mdina Tortoiseshell.
Isel of Wight Tortoiseshell is exactly the same as Mdina Earthtones, just slightly more finely blown when it came to production runs.
It's the same colourway, designed by Michael Harris.
The first image here is Mdina Tortoiseshell, the second is Mdina Earthtones.
The third image is of an IoWSG globe vase in Tortoiseshell, with the coachbolt pontil mark, and signed by Michael Harris.
The fourth, just for extra clarification of the design at IOWSG, is a flat disc bottle with flame pontil mark. The globe is a little short on the bubbly yellow, but that's simply a vagary of that individual piece, and it doesn't show well in the image.
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Can you remember what you or your employer was doing when you were 16, 17, 18?
I am now 77 years old and my first job at age of 17 was making fiberglass sports car bodies....... I can remember every stage of quite a complex process, from the mould making to the 'lay up' of the matting and resin.
The worker you refer to had his heart in glass making and is now the senior gaffer at Valleta Glass, he is able to tell Wolfie and I all the processes used at MDG and has answered many questions from his time there.
Cheers,
Patrick
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Hi Sue,
Your stoppered bottle certainly looks the part......... :)
Can we defiantly say this was made before November 1978......... If it was made before that date, I will happily change my thinking.
Regards,
Patrick.
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But he was not at Mdina in say 1974?
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Flame pontil marks were used up until '79, but the globe, with the coachbolt mark was made in mid-to late 1973 only.
You don't need any more proof than that.
It does have the bubbly yellow background, it just doesn't photograph well. The execution varies from tight dark brown stripes to difused and bubbly ones, with more reds in.
So, when Boffo introduced the design at MDG, he had taken it from the Harris design at Mdina. The Mdina shapes were copied too.
As has been known since MDG first came to attention.
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But he was not at Mdina in say 1974?
No he was not there then........ he joined November 1978 when MDG/CGL closed.........
Cheers,
Patrick.
Ps, I have just realized you did not ask a question but making a point.
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An interesting comment made by Raymond .........
"Hi All, if you notice carefully in both factories the whitish background is made up from Silver nitrate and the stripe is made up from a clear glass gathering added with ruby red glass chips, but the difference is in the pattern the red stripe is laid."
Good to know what forms the stripe.
See my original post for the images of this pattern laying.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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I had long suspected the nitrate was used for the background in Earthtones rather than the chloride used in other things, the colour of the background is often paler.
And then later on at Mdina, it goes even flatter and paler still.
I don't know the chemistry of why, it doesn't make any sense if the silver ion gets released from the chloride or the nitrate in the heat.
We do know silver chloride melts in heat and will dribble down a trail of glass.
I don't know what silver nitrate does, (apart from burning brown holes in my lab coat when it's in a room temperature solution ;D).
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Nemmie is it possible for you to post a pic. of your example dated 1974 please ? It would be great to see it ;)
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Nemmie is it possible for you to post a pic. of your example dated 1974 please ? It would be great to see it ;)
While we wait for Denver's image here is a link to the sale of a 1979 fish vase.........
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/catherine-southon/catalogue-id-srcat10013/lot-0839654b-56a0-4700-855f-a77900b82458
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Patrick has kindly sent me a message on Facebook pointing out people are requesting photos, If I could easily provide them I would do so. I stopped collecting earthtones a couple of years ago and purely kept this piece due to its date and appealing execution.
I would have to dig through around 20 crates in my attic to find it. When I do stumble across it in the natural course of events I will be sure to post it.
Whilst this matter seems of vital importance to Wolfie and Patrick, I fortunately/unfortunately have considerably more important things to currently occupy my time with.
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While we wait for Denver's image here is a link to the sale of a 1979 fish vase.........
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/catherine-southon/catalogue-id-srcat10013/lot-0839654b-56a0-4700-855f-a77900b82458
You will have a very long wait. Take a comfy seat.
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It's not really needed.
We have concrete evidence from the Tortoiseshell Isle of Wight Studio Glass globe made in late '73.
Earthtones is a Harris design, used at both Mdina and MDG.
Can we ask a moderator to please kindly change the title of this thread?
It's highly misleading.
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I also mentioned to Patrick via PM that I once owned a Mdina earthtones cylinder with a ground and polished pontil mark.
I know there has been a lot of discussion as to when these appeared and stopped being used but I don't think anyone has put them as late as 1978.
Unless it was a result of a mishap with that particular vase, Unfortunately I sold this piece and don't seem to have a photo on record.
I really need to be better with my photography record but I prefer looking at my glass to photographing it :)
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Here's a pic of a Mdina Earthtones bullet bowl to throw in the mix.....
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;D
And here's mine. The one with a zig-zag pattern on it.
However, the presence of zig-zags does not mean it was made at the same time as true zig-zags. It's possible, but it could also be a later return.
There is only so much somebody can do in the way of decorating the outside of something with strapping. :)
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Sue (chopin-liszt) said:
Can we ask a moderator to please kindly change the title of this thread? It's highly misleading.
Please provide a meaningful alternative thread title. I would certainly make the change but I cannot tell from the thread what is misleading and what isn't.
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The thread appeared to be making the suggestion that Boffo designed Earthtones, which is wrong, so it's not new information, or any information, really.
It was Michael Harris, as has always been known.
Perhaps "Earthtones at Mdina and MDG; Discussion." would be better?
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;D
And here's mine. The one with a zig-zag pattern on it.
However, the presence of zig-zags does not mean it was made at the same time as true zig-zags. It's possible, but it could also be a later return.
There is only so much somebody can do in the way of decorating the outside of something with strapping. :)
Wonderful. Now If I owned that it would be on display :)
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Thanks. Initial title details changed as suggested.
All reply posts between the start of the thread and this post will retain the original title after "Re:".
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Sue (chopin-liszt) said:Please provide a meaningful alternative thread title. I would certainly make the change but I cannot tell from the thread what is misleading and what isn't.
Hi Kevin
I would be very unhappy if the title is changed .......... There is more information on Tortoiseshell that is going to be posted in a new topic later tonight.
Thanks in advance,
Patrick.
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Hi Kevin .......
I am happy with the 'New Title' if it makes some members happy.
Cheers,
Patrick.
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Thanks Patrick.
If the new info on Tortoiseshell is put in another thread, then it can be linked from this thread wherever that might be helpful.
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It is fair to say there has been an evolution of the design, as far as I can tell (judging by the shapes it is found on) the spiralling brown and cream version may be the earliest variation with the more random or artistic trails and the grid like patterns following.
The Dexham catalogue is not a comprehensive sample of the factories output at the time.
When Harris left Malta he wanted to leave the studio in a viable position despite the fact he was forced out by the Maltese goverment, he effectively gifted them Ming, Crystal Blue Stripe, Tortoiseshell, Earthtones, etc. His old friend Dobson was still heavily involved there and the decision was made to differentiate the new output - hence the general change to more angular shapes and more flared rims.
Harris did not leave a single piece of glass behind (presumably it was all sold one way or another) nor did he leave any materials behind, they were the materials he started production with at Isle of Wight Studio Glass, think of those blue green pedestal paperweights - in typical Mdina colours.
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There is new information but you do not want to listen to it.
Forget IOW.
Sue, I need you to make this clear.
Are you stating that Mdina Tortoiseshell and Mdina Earthtones are the same thing/process?
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It is hardly new information if it is either incomplete or plain wrong.
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No, What Ho, I never did say that. You are getting confused.
See the images I posted of Mdina Tortoiseshell, and Mdina Earthtones, they show the differences clearly.
I said Mdina Earthtones is the same as Isle of Wight Studio Glass Tortoiseshell.
Harris contiuned with the designs he'd created at Mdina when he started at IoWSG, which is why what was made at IOWG in '73 is completely relevant.
We already knew Boffo took the design to MDG. There is nothing new.
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I think this large hollow pebble with a hole in it might be earthtones allthough it is heavy and has no wear and i'm not sure what it's for i thought a lamp base ?.
Not signed.
Not sure what it's for?.
Top and bottom are polished flat.
3 1/2 inches in diameter.
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:)
It is Earthtones, and an early shape. The top should not be polished flat, but have a big lumpy button rim and there should be a clear dropper to go with it.
It's a perfume bottle, but I suspect it got damaged and the top has been ground and polished down.
I had one with the stopper completely stuck in it, then ground down by somebody.
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Ok good, great in fact :) Sorry any confusion.
Everyone. Please try to be open minded and encourage new research. It seems like as soon as we find any new material it is immediately dismissed.
What proof do we have that Mdina Earthtones was made at Mdina about the late 1970s, apart from it looks like IOW tortoiseshell? I have yet to see any? Please put up pics of signed early pieces. Could it not have been introduced later?
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Yes i can see it now in this one.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/MDINA-GLASS-PAPER-WEIGHT-PERFUME-BOTTLE-EXCELLENT-/352122455012?hash=item51fc2243e4:g:3xoAAOSwtGlZGI6X
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You are asking for proof that Earthtones was made at Mdina before MDG was set up?
I thought what we needed was proof Earthtones was made at Mdina long before '78?
We have to use what is available. As you know, things were not catalogued, signed or dated, so we have to use information such as shapes, ground or polished out pontil scars and other features that are only on early pieces.
The nearest thing we have as concrete evidence is that Michael Harris made that globe I showed, at IoWSG after he left Mdina, it has a coachbolt pontil mark, which accurately dates it to mid-to-late 1973 and which Marc now owns.
It proves that Michael Harris was making that design, in 1973, the design he created at Mdina.
Research and finding out new stuff is my passion. I would always encourage it.
nemmie has said he's had a piece of Earthtones with a polished pontil mark, that's early '70s. But we don't have images.
Bullet bowls are early shapes, those triangular thick perfume bottles are early shapes.
I have a massive doorstopper in Earthtones, those are early, pre-'78 shapes, I believe.
I do not think there is any evidence that they were made after Said took over in '75 and things went a bit splodgy.
The tall Earthtones stoppered bottle I showed is cased in milk-bottle glass, not nice clear crystal.
Do you have the date they stopped using broken bottles?
I'm sure that's one of the things your fb group knows about.
This piece would pre-date that.
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As for shapes look at the first link in Reply#4 of this thread.
The neck of the shape in that link is distinctive, as far as I can tell a shape used in the mid 70s, maybe later too. Just like these three, date them and you have a reliable indicator.
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and Chris's ex-perfume bottle is cased in milk bottle glass too
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So was mine. ;D
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Hi,
When I originally started this topic I did it in good faith and am happy if my original comments are proved wrong.
One thing that has been discovered our conversations with Raymond is here in a comment from Sue.........
I had long suspected the nitrate was used for the background in Earthtones rather than the chloride used in other things, the colour of the background is often paler.
And then later on at Mdina, it goes even flatter and paler still.
All best wishes,
Patrick.
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That's fine, Patrick, I'm sure it was all in good faith.
What was actually said was confusing and some folk interpreted it to mean that Boffo had been the designer, but he wasn't.
There is enough wrong information out there, it doesn't need spread around. :)
The Mdina factory itself doesn't appear to want to acknowledge everything they got from Michael Harris.
The entire Maltese glass industry! ;D The idea, the facilities, the training and the designs.
He started it all.
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I have been very kindly provided with an image of the base of the Isle of Wight Studio Glass globe in Tortoiseshell (the same design as Mdina Earthtones), with the Michael Harris signature and the coachbolt pontil mark which proves it was made in late '73.
It would still be good to know the date Mdina stopped using milk bottle glass.
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From what I remember of topics discussed about milk bottle glass no date was established as to when recycled milk bottles ceased to be used at Mdina.
I know at some point there was both a pot of good clear glass and a pot of recycled glass going on at the same time . I guess the good glass was used for casing. This information came from a glassblower who was there in the early days.
Other coloured glass was used.....red came from crushed up car break light covers and white from crushed bottles of a liquore , which was popular at the time, called Tom Boy :o
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Thanks, Mike.
Do we know of any rough date when it wouldn't be found? Would that be into the 80's?
I'm sure the Mdina website site used to say they upped the quality around '86.
But they've changed their site and the history section several times.
To add to this discussion, I have just found a small Ming cylinder, not the normal size, with a polished pontil mark, so that puts Mdina Ming in the very early '70s too.
Ming and Earthtones are Michael Harris designs and can be found in early '70s pieces.