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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: RAY on January 15, 2012, 11:29:39 AM

Title: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: RAY on January 15, 2012, 11:29:39 AM
i'm not a one to highlight weights that are in auction mode, but this one is a murano one and someone has signed the base as you can see here http://goo.gl/zPwWq , there were no lampworkers at caithness then back in 69
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Derek on January 15, 2012, 08:48:04 PM
Hi Ray

Clearly a Murano - the only early fish weight that
Caithness did was an engraved one in 1972.

Unusual to see a Caithness faked ! The base engraving
is quite convincing apart from the wird "Caithness"
which doesn't look right.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: RAY on January 15, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
by the looks of it Derek, they've found out caithness started paperweights in 1969 and thought early dates are the most sort after
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Derek on January 15, 2012, 09:11:30 PM
Hi Ray

Agreed. I wonder where they came up with an
edition size of 200 - thats also a strange number.

Derek
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on January 15, 2012, 10:00:05 PM
 Asked her a question just for interest. Said had it about two years.?? Roger.
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: stew2u2 on January 19, 2012, 11:35:55 PM
would it not have been worth more if it had still been a murano weight
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Derek on January 20, 2012, 08:29:43 AM
Hi Stew2u2

It made £23 which I suspect is about average, although I have seen them make double this.

Some early Caithness limited editions go for substantial sums - Planets, Shipwreck, Coral etc.
and I guess whoever added the inscription was aware of this.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on January 20, 2012, 10:51:16 AM
Just for fun, heres my Shipwreck...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/pooleandpaperweights/DSC_0094.jpg

Paid £750 hammer at auction with 2 other recentish caithness which did about £150 each, so set me back £600 with commision.  Book price is £1200, and the only other one I saw sold did just over £1000 a few years ago.

Some early caithness can be very good money indeed.  Charlton Catalogue is a good guide to own as price for weights which look very similar can differ hugely.

Ian
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on January 20, 2012, 09:02:43 PM
    Its a very odd thing with these paperweight prices isnt it. About two years ago I sold my shipwreck but it only made £225, which is what I paid for it 3 years previously. Never could work it out.  Roger.
       Are they Caithness or Selkirk?
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Derek on January 20, 2012, 09:32:30 PM
Hi

The Shipwreck PW is Caithness and was designed and made by Peter Holmes in 1972
with an edition size of just 50 and all were produced. This weight has a PH cane hence
the possible confusion.

Only a few Caithness designers makers were allowed to put in their own sig cane in weights
sold as Caithness. Willie Manson (WM), Jack Allen (JA) , Allan Scott (A) , Harry McKay (H)
and Shona Spittal (S) are others that spring to mind

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on January 20, 2012, 09:53:51 PM
      Just had a look through my old photos.  PH cane on top and 35/50 underneath. Cant put the photo up because its 500kb. Wonder whose got that now!!!!!! Roger.
        Aha, just realised where the confusion arose. When I said Caithness or Selkirk I ment the Marbries, because of the top cane I cant tell the difference, PH working for Caithness with PY at one time and all that.
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on January 21, 2012, 04:46:04 PM
Marbrie on the left is July 2010, made for me by Peter when we visited him and spent 4 hours watching that and a weight by Andrew being made.
One on the right is a Selkirk one.  Peter has a box of cane slices for this purpose, suspect most are very old and date back to Selkirk days.....

Ian
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on January 21, 2012, 08:38:24 PM
     Thanks Ian, thats clarified that one. Bought a weight from Peter when we were up there June 2011, the quality is very good isnt it. Roger.
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: CML on July 25, 2013, 08:55:09 PM
Referring to a book I have Peter Holmes and William Mason  were just learning the trade in the 60's at Caithness
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on July 26, 2013, 08:37:33 AM
Yes and what better trainer could they have had than Paul Ysart himself. The photo is a 2005 Peter holmes creation and shows the training and influence from Paul.  Jewels on blue.
            Regards Roger
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: CML on July 26, 2013, 12:06:03 PM
 Didn't Peter Holmes break away from Caithness to start Selkirk? Selkirk is Caithness' biggest competitor. I guess that is why the early 60"s Caithness paperweights are valuable since  Holmes and Manson were just learning the trade under Ysart at Caithness.
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: tropdevin on July 26, 2013, 12:29:00 PM
***

Hi CML

There are some useful articles on the 'family tree' of Scottish paperweight makers that set out who worked with whom, and when, and what companies they set up, how long they lasted, and so on. Dave Webber wrote two in the PCA Bulletin (2000 and 2003).

Peter Holmes and Willie Manson left Caithness to set up their own companies, and Peter Holmes subsequently left Selkirk and set up Scottish Borders Art Glass.  Similarly John Deacons left Perthshire to set up his own company, which he still runs. Caithness went into administration in 2006, taking Selkirk down with it, and was taken over by Dartington Glass, and now operates as a much smaller company.

Whether early Caithness paperweights are valuable depends very much which design they are (and don't believe the Charlton catalogue prices - most are wildly optimistic).  There are no 'early 1960s' Caithness paperweights, incidentally - the first ones were issued in 1969.

Alan
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on July 26, 2013, 01:59:45 PM
Peter set up Selkirk in 1977, and made some weights from October onwards.  I still aim to find one dated 1977, though I am suspicious they didn't date them at first as I have multiple early weights listed as made in 1978 with no date......

Someone ask Peter when they next see him!

Ian
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Derek on July 26, 2013, 02:14:45 PM
Hi CML

A couple of slight corrections to Alans post.

Willie Manson left Caithness in 1971 to go and work with Paul Ysart at Harland.
When this folded in 1975  he went back to Caithness Glass and was there until 1979 when Graham Brown an ex- managing director of Caithness financed a craft village at Killwinning which included a glass studio which Willie ran for him - it was here that the Scotia brand paperweights were made.

The craft village lasted only a short time ( less than 2 years) as most of the units apart from the glass studio were losing money. Willie then returned to working for Caithness, although this time it was on a freelance basis. Finally in 1997 he left Caithness to set up  his own studio in Friarton Road which ran until 2004.

Willie then worked briefly with John Deacons before setting up another studio on an industrial estate in the area of Perth known as "The Shore" and only a few yards away from where the Ysart Brothers/Vasart factory stood. This studio is still running.

John Deacons left Perthshire to set up J Glass in premises opposite his house in 1978. This operation lasted until 1983. The was then a gap of approximately a year before John started a small studio in a converted cow byre attached to his house. This traded initially as Crieff Glass before becoming Deacons Glass. This operation is still trading today.

I was just going to post this when I saw that Ian had also made a post !

A little more information on Selkirk. Peter Holmes left with Ron Hutchinson who at the time was the Caithness Sales director. This happened in 1977 and initially Selkirk Glass was set up in a small rented workshop in Linglie Mill. They moved to the large modern factory on the outskirts of Selkirk in 2000. This factory was organised on identical lines to Caithness with ample parking to attract tourists and coach parties, a viewing area, factory shop and caf.

Selkirk, at their peak, employed 40 workers and produced 25,000 weights a year.  Peter however soon realised that the scale of this operation meant that most of his time was spent on administration leaving little time to be creative which was the reason he left Caithnessin the first place! So, in 2002, he sold his share of the business to Ron Hutchinson and set up Scottish Borders Art Glass. 

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on July 26, 2013, 02:20:13 PM
Just so the historians know about this and it doesn't confuse people in years to come.  When Selkirk folded the stock was sold off.  In the stock were some weights made by Peter.  They were brought by a well known dealer at the factory, and she got them signed by Peter in 2005 and I think they are dated 2005.  I have one somewhere in my collection, so will check at some point, but the point is, there are a few weights signed by Peter made at Selkirk but dated years after he left......

Ian
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: Roger H on July 26, 2013, 05:53:01 PM
Can you remember what type of weights they were?
        Regards Roger.
Title: Re: caithness yellow fish paperweight dont think so
Post by: tropdevin on July 26, 2013, 09:20:49 PM
***

Sadly, there were 3 of my weights that vanished when Selkirk folded, that I made on a visit a few days before they closed. I made them under the instruction of Dave McGregor. I never got them (I last saw them going into the kiln for annealing...). So someone out there may have weights that I made. That may confuse people!

Alan