Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Germany => Topic started by: David555 on April 16, 2006, 08:44:15 PM
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Hi
Here are two art nouveau white metal / silver plated vase bases with clear engraved glass inserts – I am thinking of selling some of my better pieces like these and need an attribution.
The mark is hard to define as the inside is roughly cast and plated blurring the shallow mark which is typical – under the mark is a number 4415 – there are also scratched marks on both bases which you can see in the photos.
These vases have fantastic casting and although the surface took some cleaning there is no rubbing to the silver plate at all, even the inner parts are OK if a little black here and there.
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3889/1artnovs1fg.th.jpg) (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1artnovs1fg.jpg)
(http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6510/3artnovs8bp.th.jpg) (http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3artnovs8bp.jpg)
The total height is 10.75” – the glass insert is 8” high and both are original and undamaged with simple hand engraved line and floral ‘art novo’ motifs – the base of the glass inserts are beautifully polished and as I look up the clear glass I can see circular lines like turning that I notice in a lot of older glass.
Marks
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4206/2artnovs9iv.th.jpg) (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2artnovs9iv.jpg)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9631/artmark6bj.th.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=artmark6bj.jpg)
Any information on maker which could be French or British appreciated
(http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3925/4artnovs7pb.th.jpg) (http://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4artnovs7pb.jpg)
Turned one way the mark looks vaguely like a WMF mark but I know these are not WMF even though I cannot discern the detail in the marks - they are of that period (1900s) but I don't think these are German they have a ‘bell époque’ with whiplash look about them.
Adam P
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Here are some more images of mark - 1cm x 0.5cm and unable to read due to plating
(http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5664/marks6vy.jpg)
The shape and motif can be seen here, but which way around and what is the wording if any?
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5895/mark27pm.jpg)
I think I am getting close with names like Orivit, Kayserzinn, Nekrassoff, etc.
Adam P
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I've tried to draw a picture of what I can see inside the circle from two different photo's.
http://tinypic.com/vy2kbd.jpg
http://tinypic.com/vy2kjp.jpg
This might be a trick of the light but the first picture shows a 6 pointed star.
Is it also possible that the circle is a globe?
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Thank you Tiger :!:
That is very kind of you and will help a great deal.
I will definitely use your interpretations in my ongoing research.
In the last picture of my first post you can see where the moulding to the metal matches up to the engraving on the glass (which I think is crystal) - at the bottom of the blank cartouche.
:) :) :)
Adam P
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I used silver a foil rub and have the main circle - opposite is a motif or words I can't get – may be some kind of animal
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/646/picmark0qg.th.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picmark0qg.jpg)
You were right about the star Tiger!
A better look at the glass insert
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6127/vaseins5ho.th.jpg) (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vaseins5ho.jpg)
The motif ties up with that on the silver plated moulding
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9715/nov24lc.th.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nov24lc.jpg)
Thanks
Adam P
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Hi Adam
Nice looking inserts. Cut rim + engraving points towards Czech or the German / Czech border regions for the glass, which looks good quality ....what's your estimation ?
Of course the metal work could well be made in a different country in any case.
Adam said
but I don't think these are German they have a ‘bell époque’ with whiplash look about them.
So does much early WMF ! and so does some of the output of Orvit and Kayserzin (spell ?) (Edit Correction : Kayserzinn) which were both taken over by WMF I believe.
One if not both of these were in Belgium or near there I think.
Another possible maker is Urania in Maastricht ...and if I have this right, their work was marked "Imperial-Zinn".
Here's a book ref
Art Nouveau Domestic Metalwork: From Wurttembergische Metallwaren Fabrik 1906, 2nd Edition
Antique Collectors Club, Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Graham Dry
Hardcover / 389 Pages / Antique Collectors Club Ltd / March 2006
and a website for marks
http://www.antikonline.de/wmfmarks1.htm
I will also write to a very knowledgable collector to ask for his input here.
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Hi Peter
I do think the glass looks Czech/Austrian/German from other inserts I have had - it is simply but beautifully cut.
I take your point that the base may have been added (or visa versa) but see how the motif at the bottom of the (base) cartouche is same as the engraving to glass - In fact I know for a fact glass inserts were often farmed out as you say.
At first I thought these may be Italian (hence - bell époque’) I take your point ref all the other factories you quote after looking at the pictures on the net - there are actually quite a lot of Austrian Secessionist elements in my vases.
Kayserzin - I get 'do you mean Kayserzinn' and lots of Kayserzinn links when I add the extra n?
What do you think of the base mark - it is pretty spot on - what about the star, is that the early Czech communist star? It can't be as that would make the vase too late in date.
The double dot is used in the German language, what about Austrian & Czech?
The mark shape is same as WMF (1909 on) - the contents are different but there may be something in this?
One thing I forgot to add is the vase bases were covered by a thin film of Varnish, I have cleaned up all the nasty areas were it was peeling but it is still on the handles and in the features – most annoyingly it is (was) over the marks which are very thickly plated anyway – this protective coating is something WMF did to silver plate and can be a real pain.
I am a bit lost on this one Peter so thanks for the book reference and the links - also thanks for passing my info on, much appreciated.
Adam P
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Your mention of varnish rang alarm bells.
I have just looked at the metalwork propperly. I was responding mainly to your remarks re WMF - apologies.
It doesn't look, to me, like nouveau / secession peices of the period, I'm afraid. None that I have seen anyway.
This has too much extra decoration and looks more like 50s onwards.
The double dot (Umlaut) is NOT used in Czech but I have doubts that it meant to be an umlaut.
If it says Buist or Bjist or Bijst ...then that sounds Dutch to me.
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Hi Peter
The varnish was a bit globular in some places so it could have been done later on, even by the previous owner.
That said I have WMF silver plated pieces that are 1909 - 20s which are varnished - I don't know if it was on request but it is a fine shellac (?) that is less likely to go yellow than the later WMF 1950s - 60s metal which has a sort of plastic which peels off - I have these black and white striped pieces they made.
I also think the two dots are the tops of i's
My last post showed my interpretation of the foil rub - I could have elements wrong - here is the original rub
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9994/mark26jr.th.jpg) (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mark26jr.jpg)
I do think the vases are nouveau period - lots of elements went into these metal designs including some Victorian floral design - the top motif is very Horta while the whiplash handles ending in squared off feet are very nouveau. Perhaps secessionist is the wrong word for this - it is not angular enough I agree.
I actually think it is too simple (which worries me) WMF and other factories threw every naked twisting woman and bit of whiplashed foliage they could into the mix.
I do have one reservation in the communist looking star in the mark.
Can you still send to your friend Peter? I would like an attribution as I paid near £300.00 for these as 1900s and would be taking them back if I thought they were later interpretations.
Thanks
Adam P
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Is it not a russian star? The star and the unusual monogram reminds me of a few Russian marks that I find on pottery :?:
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It could be Tiger
In which case I would be very worried
Adam P
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I confess to not knowing Russian history. :oops:
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I think a lot of Russians feel the same :wink:
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It probably is Russian, I was looking at a site of russian metalwork recently and many items like this. Google tea glasses, I have forgotten the site now but it had A LOT.
Russian name is Podstakannik, the site had old ones and current production, it also sold old glasses for inside and offered new ones cut, etched or plain.
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Thanks Frank
I will do that - If Tiger and yourself turn out to be right many thanks
I have a book on Russian metalwork - Faberge and factories like that including some plated ware - I guess I never thought of this kind of work being Russian, style wise that is.
Adam P
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Hi
This is a link to a podstakannik – which means ‘under the glass’ my vases are not like these really
link podstakannik (http://cgi.ebay.com/KOSMOS-kremlin-star-rocket-russian-podstakannik-504_W0QQitemZ7407259723QQcategoryZ37988QQcmdZViewItem)
Here are two very similar WMF vases – the low metal base with floral decoration and the long engraved glass insert – My vases are not WMF but in the style of and I think looking at other pieces of the period?
link WMF (http://www.titusomega.com/Object%20Profile%20and%20Photos/Old%20profiles/Metalware/WMF%20Vases%20Large.htm)
Adam P
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Adam, this from my contact Jeff Smallowitz a long time collector of WMF and similar.
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Hi Peter,
Please excuse the tardiness of this reply. After 2½ weeks, we returned from China last night. I welcome your emails and will always share what I know. In this case though, it’s not much.
I checked my usual resources and these vases have me stumped. They are not Russian and not from the fifties. They appear to be old, German, and of the same period as Art Nouveau/Jugendstil WMF. I agree with the first assessment you posted on April 27th about the possible manufacturers and suggest that this is another job for the silver salon forums at: http://www.smpub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true
They have a forum on silverplate and I bet they can help. I’d be interested in the answer and will follow the thread. You are welcome to post any or all of this. Sorry I am not more help.
Regards,
Jeff
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Hope this helps
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That is excellent news Peter. Thank you so much for contacting Jeff - please thank him for me when you email him next.
It is a relief to know they are not repro!
Thanks also for the link, I have never heard of the Silver Salon Forum - I will contact / post there a.s.a.p.
Adam P
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:D:D:D
I've just found this listing, which shows a Kayserzinn mark.
link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kayserzinn-art-nouveau-Pewter-Basket-with-Handle-4585_W0QQitemZ7389413709QQcategoryZ69472QQcmdZViewItem)
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Hi Sue
This is the mark I kept on getting for Kayserzinn pewter while researching, the silver plate marks are different but still unlike the mark on my vases.
The only common denominator is the four digit number - I found that a few other German/Austrian companies used a similar four digit number system.
Thanks for looking
Appreciated
Adam P
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:D:D:D
For what it's worth, probably not much, but the script on your mark looks Arabic or Jewish to me. Not that I think your vases look middle Eastern. :?
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Thanks to Jeff for sending me to the Silver Salon - I recently got the ID I needed.
Hi
The manufacturer is the metalware firm F. W. Quist of Esslingen, Germany. They registered their first mark (not this one) in 1900, but the mark you show is listed in my copy of the 1925 German Goldsmith's Yearbook.
Quist is far better known, however, as one of the leading manufacturers of military helmets during WWII. They are no longer in business, no doubt in part thanks to their position as a prominent supplier to the Third Reich. Try googling "Esslingen" and "Quist" and see what you find.
So I have been told any date leading up to 1925 as the mark may have been introduced around 1906 - 1914
I have already found this piece, which is later in date to my vases I think http://www.decollect.com/catalog/item/231681/33209.htm
Thanks
Adam P