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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 10:51:32 AM

Title: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 10:51:32 AM
Got a nasty feeling this is a fake, the P does seem to be more orange than the Y?

Thanks
Nick

Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 21, 2012, 10:53:56 AM
The P looks brown, the Y looks purple.
What is your opinion of the lampwork and the weight itself?
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 11:02:36 AM
Frankly the lampwork and overall quality is stunning, if it is fake there was no need as its quality is good enough without putting a fake cane, just a bit worried having now seen some fakes on line.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 21, 2012, 11:15:11 AM
Have you checked out "Scotland's Glass"?

http://ysartglass.com/PaulYsart/PYover.htm
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: tropdevin on June 21, 2012, 12:19:04 PM
***

Hi Nick

I was sure it was a fake, so I did not bid on it!

Alan
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: daveweight on June 21, 2012, 12:39:50 PM
Then dropped Y is typical of the firtst batch of fakes PY weights from 1988
Dave
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 21, 2012, 12:40:13 PM
 ;D

I don't suppose there is a way of surgically extracting it to leave you with simply a very well executed weight, not pretending to be something else......
So; does anybody know who the highly skilled lampworker was?  ::)
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 01:17:54 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say it was a dropped Y more so that the cane is squashed not completely round.What I had previously read was that genuine canes have the y formed as a V with the tail added fakes not so and this seemed to fit the V and tail. Yes left a bid not really expecting to get it and it was apparently at my maximum bid price. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: KevinH on June 21, 2012, 01:25:49 PM
The flower lampwork is pretty much the same (except for the central cane) as in Example 06 shown in my page of example fake py weights (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/fake-py/fake-py-weights.htm). There are, however, a variety of different lampwork styles across the range of these items.

And the direct answer to Sue's question about who made the lampwork is that, amongst collectors, we do not know.

Although similarities may occasionally be seen with lampwork in other weights, such things cannot be taken to mean that a particular person produced all such elements. This is easily shown by comparing lampwork elements in genuine Paul Ysart weights from his 1970s period, where much of the lampwork was made by his apprentices but was of a form and quality very much like Paul's own work.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 01:33:17 PM
Just as a matter of interest and I'm not trying to disprove this is a fake, but if the maker is not known how was it ascertained that these are fakes, especially as they do all seem to be pretty good quality from the photos and this one here?
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: KevinH on June 21, 2012, 01:57:18 PM
The main point is not a matter of of studying the lampwork or other main elements. It is the fact that all of the fakes have a "py" cane that is known not to be genuine.

The first batch of fakes all had what was called by collectors of the time the "dropped y cane". The second batch had a new form of py cane, but it was later confirmed that in both batches, the p and y were different colours.

As well as the details in the ysartglass.com site, my own pages (as linked to in my earlier post) set out details of what to look for. For full details of my analysis of each of the examples I have shown, see my "Notes (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/fake-py/fake-py-weights-notes.htm)" page, where I provide 15 summary points that can help to indicate what may be a fake py weight - but again, I must stress that the one main clue is the py cane itself, not the other features of a weight.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: SophieB on June 21, 2012, 03:19:23 PM
Hi Nick,

A fake is an object which has been made with the intention to deceive or to defraud.  Sometimes it is difficult to prove such intention. However, in this case, the fake signature cane is clear evidence of this intent to deceive.

Actually, I am really annoyed at Boldon auctions galleries as I had sent them a message to point out that it was a fake Paul Ysart weight. Obviously, this was completely ignored. Next time, I will make sure to discuss this on the GMB so no member gets caught.

I must admit I am very surprised at the auction house's attitude. If it had been a fake painting for instance, I suspect that it would have been a different story.

Still in your position, I would be tempted to get back to them and see what they say. In my (very) humble opinion, they come close to fall foul of the Fraud Act 2006. 

SophieB
   

Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 21, 2012, 03:41:33 PM
Thanks again, all

Sophie in all fairness I hadn't contacted the Auction house so far. I have though now just spoken to one of the auctioneers who tells me I need to speak to the boss who is away until Monday. Can you please let me know when you sent the email (exact time and date would be good if you have the details) and whether you had any reponse at all?
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: SophieB on June 21, 2012, 04:28:06 PM
Hi Nick,

I am happy to forward you a copy of the message (sent on 02/06/2012 at 19.25) if you give me your email address.

Good luck with the negotiations.

SophieB
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 21, 2012, 04:30:36 PM
Do these fakes not actually have their own collecting field...... ?
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: tropdevin on June 21, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
***
Hi Sue

I think there are Ysart collectors who like to have a fake or two, and so they are not that cheap to get! I have seen one or two make similar prices to legit examples.

Alan
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: KevinH on June 21, 2012, 10:00:12 PM
Nick, I hope you get a fair response from the auction house.

However, their description for the item was accurate:
Quote
A paperweight with central purple flower and opaque spiral canes with alternate red stripes, bears mark PY.
They had not said it was made by Paul Ysart. Also, their images were good and the enlargements showed excellent detail, with a very clear view of the "py" cane with its differing colours for the two letters.

The estimate of 150 - 200 was perhaps a little high but does reflect the price realised for similar weights over the past two or three years.

As Sue and Alan have touched on, there is certainly a market for these weights.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chriscooper on June 21, 2012, 11:20:29 PM
Back to the description, are we to assume then the auction house did not know it was a Paul Ysart weight? genuine or not so did not mention this in the description but went on to give a Ysart size estimate. When a simple search for PY cane would have told them. We jump on ebay sellers for such ambiguous descriptions why should auction houses be any different.
Surely if you want to sell something and achieve the best price you find out and list as much information has you can about?
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: KevinH on June 22, 2012, 01:33:08 AM
I don't think it is wise to make any assumptions about what a seller knows or does not know about an item they are selling. If an inaccuracy, ambiguity, or possible omission, is seen in a description, then the seller can be contacted (as Sophie B did in respect of this weight).

Within the GMB it is true that some people have "jumped on eBay sellers". But these days, more people do, at least, contact sellers before posting messages about the sales item on the Board.

In my view, any discussions on how sellers (of any type) conduct their sales, should be kept to factual statements. Otherwise there is a danger of discussion turning into "seller bashing" or worse - and that is explicitly covered in the GMB Guidelines as being cause for moderation.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 22, 2012, 08:50:45 AM
Nick, I hope you get a fair response from the auction house.

However, their description for the item was accurate:They had not said it was made by Paul Ysart. Also, their images were good and the enlargements showed excellent detail, with a very clear view of the "py" cane with its differing colours for the two letters.

The estimate of 150 - 200 was perhaps a little high but does reflect the price realised for similar weights over the past two or three years.

As Sue and Alan have touched on, there is certainly a market for these weights.

To you it may be obvious to a relative newcomer like me not so. Yes I should have checked more carefully.
In reality  I only saw this shortly before the auction, the fact I remembered reading about fakes was as I mentioned before in the construction of the Y (Millers guide I think), this seemed Ok to me and I thought the quality seemed too good to be a fake so I left a bid 170 expecting that it would probably exceed that.

I have to say though that if they were unaware of it possibly being by Paul Ysart then the estimates I think would have been more in the area of 30 -50. If they were aware that it was (or possibly was) a fake then it should have been catalogued as "After Paul Ysart" or "In the style of" as they would with a painting or doubtful provenance.

Despite not stating it was Paul Ysart but putting that estimate it certainly implied it was genuine! And of course Sophie had informed them it was fake yet they did not change the description estimate or withdraw the item.
I'll keepyou updated.

Nick
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 22, 2012, 09:04:05 AM
Hi Nick,

I am happy to forward you a copy of the message (sent on 02/06/2012 at 19.25) if you give me your email address.

Good luck with the negotiations.

SophieB

Hi Sophie

It seems I cannot send you a PM or email you can you perhaps use my email link to forward your email to me?

Thanks
Nick
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on June 22, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Fake weights like this tend to do about 120 to 150 on ebay, when properly attributed.  I to saw the dropped cane in the pictures and decided not to bid.....

What did you pay for it at the auction?

More importantly, if you like it, and the fakes are great quality, then negotiate if you overpaid and keep it!

As for the maker of the fakes, there is a known story but for legal reasons you won't find anyone saying what it is and who made them on a public board like this!  I was once told the full story by a dealer at a fair, and it sounded pretty likely but completely without proof......
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 22, 2012, 03:31:13 PM
I know.  8)
But are the fake weights ever properly attributed - or simply attributed as a "genuine fake"?


Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 28, 2012, 01:49:15 PM
Well the good news is that after some discussion the auction house has agreed that on its return they will refund me in full. It's on its way back now.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: tropdevin on June 28, 2012, 01:57:59 PM
***

Hi Nick

Good for them and good for you! ;D

Alan
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: daveweight on June 29, 2012, 10:42:23 AM
Hi Nick,
There were two batches of paperweights made with fake PY canes. The first batch with the dropped Y appeared in 1988 and the second batch with the letters spaced apart came out in 1992.   As Kev H will confirm fluorescing has confirmed they are not made from the same glass as genuine PY weights.
With regard to the maker, whovever it was was certainly a skilled lampworker/glassmaker and the sad thing is many dealers were conned as they bought these weights believing them to be genuine PY weights.  I actually met one dealer the day after they bought a batch of 13 of these fakes and paid top price for them
Hope this helps clarify things
Dave 
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: SophieB on June 29, 2012, 11:29:22 AM
Hi Nick,

This is good news indeed.

SophieB
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: RAINBOWGIRL on June 30, 2012, 12:16:15 PM
;D

I don't suppose there is a way of surgically extracting it to leave you with simply a very well executed weight, not pretending to be something else......
So; does anybody know who the highly skilled lampworker was?  ::)

Well, the faker knows. By the way, did you sense the great maw of silence that greeted your question? This discussion has been on-going for years. Quality paperweights such as these fake Paul Ysart efforts don't get made in a vacuum. The maker had assistance. The problem is in actually naming the perpetrator. A false accusation might get you sued depending on how the revelation is written.

There's no doubt that everyone who is an expert on paperweights, especially paperweights from Scotland, has mentioned the name of the fake Ysart maker in private. There are only a handful of paperweight makers who could have made these weights. The name is certainly well-known to you and to all of us. The maker has talent and probably needed a quick bob during a fallow period in his life. Perhaps he needed money to maintain his studio. Did he commit a crime? Yes he did. Fraud is a crime.

The issue is discussed in the book Masterworks: The Paperweights Of Paul Ysart by Colin Mahoney. Ysart himself said that the fakes were not his work. It would be interesting to know who he suspected of being the culprit.

The person who made the paperweights is from Scotland and has been active in the glass paperweight field for decades. That's all we're ever allowed to say. But you can do the math as well as anyone else.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 30, 2012, 12:38:27 PM
I was teasing a bit - I'm well aware who he is!
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on June 30, 2012, 02:00:14 PM
Pleased to say that the refund receipt to my card from the auction house arrived in the post today, all monies refunded including my return postage to them.

On the subjsect of the maker I am not aware who it is but I have my suspicions, it certainly wasn't knocked out in China.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: tropdevin on June 30, 2012, 02:59:55 PM
***
I suspect that the two batches of weights that appeared at different dates, with different signature canes (see Daveweight's post), may have come from two different sources (in Scotland).  There are some very poor quality pieces around with the 'later' date cane.

Alan
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 30, 2012, 03:13:05 PM
 ;D
Emphasising the importance of looking first at the quality of the workmanship and the beauty of the piece and how much you love it........
- before looking at sizes and numbers and marks and colours and wavelengths of light.... ;)

[Mod: Subsequent discussion about colour & wavelength has been taken out of this thread and set up as a new topic in the Cafe forum.]
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Frank on July 19, 2012, 11:09:25 PM
The weights were clearly identified as fake by Paul Ysart.

Read the 1989 account here http://ysartglass.com/Ysartnews/YsartnewsSpecial.htm

There was not one maker, it is high time that was clear. The first batch was made at two locations, one a glassworks, and the very first batch produced were near to perfection. The makers who continued when production needed to be stepped up did not have the same skills as the first maker. To be fair, the person who made the signature cane used throughout the Type 1 fake did give a clear indication. Only last year I got a new first hand account of the people involved.

If you can track them down a Les Spendly and Dennis Gould were the ones with detailed evidence of both stages of making of Type 1. I have not been able to locate either recently.

The whole episode was organised by a Scottish Dealer who addressed a wide variety of glass faking and misrepresentation.

There is little point in naming names most of the makers involved have good careers and respect and would be unlikely to produce Type 3. This was probably the first large scale faking of paperweights and there is every likelihood of it happening to the weights of other makers. Often the existence of a fake gets forgotten in time. The web publication of the PY fake weights has kept the knowledge alive.

Long forgotten is that at the same time a quantity of Jay weights were also faked and can be found with canes matching those in the fake PY weights.

As to value - these are mostly well made paperweights with all the added charm of the stories around them they do make a good addition to a Scottish weight collection. But there were some absolute disasters amongst them.

The first batch was tested on me, then an Ysart glass dealer in London's Portobello. At that time I had only found unsigned examples and leapt at the opportunity to buy (Was that me Daveweight?) I paid a lot for them and sold most quickly at a ten pound mark-up. I then bought a second batch and this batch got me worried as the seller said his source had hundreds and this second batch were clearly sloppier. After talking to collectors I contacted the Cambridge Paperweight Circle, Dennis had also been offered a large batch directly by the dealer mentioned above. Alarm bells, after checking out the story that they came from a storeroom at Caithness in Wick - I asked Colin Terris who denied this saying that Paul left virtually nothing behind and that some items that had been stolen were recovered.
I arranged for some to be shown to Paul, then in hospital, who confirmed they were not his work.

I bought back most of of those I had sold - though several of the buyers wanted to keep them and I just gave them an 80% or thereabouts refund. Ouch  :P There were a couple that never got the refund... sorry if you are reading! But I just did not know who they were then.

Later this dealer, very angry at me, for screwing up a lot of his other fake sales (A lot of collectors demanded refunds from him as ID'd altered Strathearn that they had bought as Monart) and spread the story that I was naming a particular maker. This soured my relationship with that particular maker for many years, and has still not really been overcome which I am very unhappy about. Particularly annoying as there were several others actually doing it.

Although the Police did an investigation they were so zeroed in on this dealer who was a bit brighter than them, that they screwed the investigation and were forced to halt after two failed raids to the wrong places. I later gave them addresses where this dealer stored his stuff but they had not known about them. So it goes.

What still irks me today is one elderly collector who had spent her life savings on buying the fakes from the dealers UK buddy in the North of England and never got any compensation.

Later some of the fakes were altered by polishing and faceting to try and hide their pedigree.

I guess that these matters while causing anguish and frustration do ultimately add to our passion for the family's work. After all to be the first weight maker to be chosen for systematic copying is quite an accolade. Only Paul Ysart's genius could not be copied exactly
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: jamalpa36 on July 20, 2012, 08:49:27 AM
Hi Frank

I have heard this suggested before but has anyone on the glass message board ever seen  a forged "J" weight?

I would be interested to see what they look like.

Roy
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Frank on July 20, 2012, 10:06:44 AM
Les and Dennis had some.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on September 18, 2012, 07:57:50 PM
So Boldon auctions have waited a few months and now it's listed again in their next auction same description same estimate of 100-150 lot 19, quite unbelievable.

Oddly unless I am mistaken lot 20 with an estimate of 30-50 looks like it may be the real thing!
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on November 24, 2012, 10:33:47 AM
And now it appears on ebay
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251188994250?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251188994250?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648)
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Frank on November 24, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
mailed seller
Quote
Hi, this weight is a fake although the price you ask is what these fakes fetch these days, it would be better to actually say it is one of the fakes in your listing as you presumably know it is fake with such a BIN. Boldon auctions who sold this recently were made aware in June it was a fake and relisted it again recently. There is enough info on my site ysartglass.com and this particular weight has also been discussed in glassmessages.com.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 12:30:21 PM
I wondered why the picture was so small.
Thanks so much for discussing these things here - I've learnt a lot from these threads.
m
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Nick77 on November 24, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
Thanks Frank I did mail asking them to confirm it was from Boldon but no reply. Comparing the photos though it certainly seems to be exactly the same one.
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Frank on November 24, 2012, 05:56:53 PM
Seller replied to me and has also relisted the weight as Paul Ysart style starting at 5 pounds
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: w84it on November 24, 2012, 06:36:06 PM
Still hardly giving it away.   He's set a reserve and then a buy it now price of 150.  What's the minimum reserve?   50?    So starting at 5 is meaningless at best.

Will still be interesting to see what it makes.  PY fakes still attract me, at the right price.


Keith
Title: Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
Post by: Frank on November 24, 2012, 08:09:16 PM
But at least honest, would probably fetched more if he described it properly.