Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on September 08, 2012, 07:48:16 PM
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I won't give the height, or the wording, both of which may well give the game away. Haven't done well in the past with attempts at a quiz - you're all too clever - but don't believe I've seen one of these before, so it may last for more than five minutes :)
Whatever else, I think it's an interesting piece although now no longer used for its original purpose, and perhaps unusual in glass maybe.? :)
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Got me,a vase for one stick of celery? ;D ;D
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I'm thinking bulb vase, but I wouldn't begin to guess the maker.
Carolyn
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Seems to be an engraved line around the top, so I'm guessing a spirit measure ?
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Obviously nowhere near difficult enough - Steven is correct with spirit measure, although I think this one is more interesting to us than the usual modern metal cups - it is in fact a quarter gill measure.
Apparently the 1⁄4 gill was previously the most common measure in Scotland, and may still remain as the standard measure in pubs in Ireland - although I think most measures are now based on metric equivalents :-\. It seems that in England we had a smaller spirits capacity of one sixth of a gill.
Around the top of this example is engraved '1/4 gill' - (with Steven's line), and the dark blob is in fact a lead seal which goes penetrates the thickness of the glass and is stamped on the outside with a crown followed by ER and the no. 35. However, of most interest is the engraving around the lower portion which says "Richardson's Patent B623". There is slice cutting round the neck and punties around the base, and it stands 3.3/4" tall - most of the base is taken up with the ground/polished pontil depression. The script is quite florid, and looks earlier than I'd associate with Elizabeth's reign.
Anyway, just thought it was interesting, and if anyone wishes to add anything please feel free. :)
P.S. commiserations to Carolyn and Keith ;)
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There used to be a pub in Edinburgh (it may still be there) called "The Quarter Gill".
I've just googled. There are Quarter Gills in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee.
However... it would appear to be a new "retro" thing to call pubs!
I can't seem to find any references to the really old original ones. ???
(I thought it was a vinagrette, but too late to make a contribution.)
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quote from Sue........."(I thought it was a vinagrette, but too late to make a contribution.)"...........nope - whether made before or after doesn't matter - you had a guess, and although utterly and completely wide of the mark, I can add you to the list of failed attempts. I seem unable to generate a really good quiz question, but this way at least I can increase the number of failed guesses, which makes me feel as though I got a little mileage out of it. ;) ;D
My dear old granny carried a small bottle (much smaller than this in fact) in her handbag, which was for smelling salts, which is what I'm assuming you are implying, and this contained a quantity of crystals soaked in ammonia on the top of which was a small pad of cotton wool. From memory it was potent, and might have vanquished almost any unwelcome odour. I believe they were often made in silver.
However, I admire your honesty :P
What perhaps I might have said was.............do people think this is the Richardson that we refer to when speaking of glass?
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I didn't mean a nosegay vinagrette, I meant an individual vinegar vinagrette. Missing a partner for oil.
Smelling salts were introduced when fashionable women had frequent fainting episodes caused by lace-up corsets which were far too tight.
The shock of the stink was meant to bring them round. ;D
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ahhhh, now I seeeeeeee ..............probably what you meant to say was a cruet for a liquid condiment - although it would have been missing its stopper and should have had a pouring lip. ;D I had some idea that your sort were also for waiving under the nose when walking in areas populated by the working classes. ;)
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Great find Paul.I've a number of pewter measures with similar marks,one of my books does mention glass measures but says very little apart than any marked (stencilled) pieces are unlikely to be before 1880. ;D
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There is a very good little paperback by Brian Brooks , 'Whisky Dispensers & Measures ' published by B Brooks 2000 ISBN 0-9539098-0-8, lots of illustrations and info on these measures.
cheers ,
Peter.
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thanks Keith. I'm really not sure now of the meaning of the number 35 - does this imply the first time the capacity was verified by the weights and measures people - and if so I would have thought it might carry GR rather than ER. The type of script makes me think certainly pre 1940, but that's only guess.
Thanks for the information Peter - another book to get then :) As mentioned, I don't find myself knee deep in these things, and can only assume they have stayed within the brewing/pub industry and don't normally find their way out into the public domain - although like all things I dare say they can be sourced from more specialist suppliers. No doubt my above question is answered in the book you mention.
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the numbers are related to the cities were the measures were verified and then stamped on the seals, 34 or 36 for Glasgow 3 for Edinburgh and 324 for south Shields ,sorry don't know were 35 was . E R is for 1901-1910 V R 1879-1901 G R 1911-1920
all in the little booklet by B Brooks.
cheers ,
Peter.
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thanks for the part explanation Peter - Edward Royal it is then, on the basis that his reign spanned those ten years, which would also fit in with the style of script on my example.
Will certainly get the book.
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Might be an idea if I got a copy ;D ;D
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having bought this one, I realized I'd seen another in recent days, so went back to the shop, and now have two.
This second example is a tad shorter at 3.5" - is unmarked and without any 'level' line, but is similar in general outline shape which is often described as a 'stopperless decanter-shaped spirit measure', and again there is a ground/polished pontil depression - pix are attached of this second example.
Quite by coincidence I was looking through Andy McConnell's book 'The Decanter' earlier today, and saw that there is a line drawing on page 447, of a measure which looks very similar to this new one - and which is described as a 'pillar whisky' measure, the smallest of which is given as a 'nip or 1/4 gill' (which is what the capacity of this one appears to be).
This is one of three line drawings, all of which are 'spirit measures from Holyrood pattern book 4, c. 1865'. I'm assuming that since legislation of the Weights and Measures Act - requiring legal standard capacities to be shown by a line on the glass - didn't come in until 1878, then this second 'pillar' measure may well date to somewhere between 1865 and 1878. I wonder how many drinkers were short changed by these unregulated measures? There is the most basic of decoration around the rim, consisting of six very irregularly spaced cuts made by a small wheel.
I know little about the Scottish factories, but having looked in the books there is every chance that this refers to the Holyrood Glass Works which was in the Edinburgh area and owned for most of the C19 by the Ford family - although the factory closed very early in the C20, apparently, with a lot of the Ford workers joining E. & L. Flint Glass Works. Perhaps someone might care to comment as to whether this sounds the same 'Holyrood' as mentioned in the book.
Coming back to the Richardson's Patent spirit measure, which was the original subject of this thread, very pleased to say that Andy McConnell's book provides some information for this one too.
A method of marking the level (on the glass) with a lead seal was patented in 1869 by W. H. Richardson (prior to the legal requirement of the Act it seems?) - son of the Stourbridge maker, whilst manager of James Couper & Sons' Glasgow Glassworks. This does add some more information about the Richardson example and indicates a date of somewhere after 1869, probably - might Stourbridge be the '35 district'??
References: 'The Decanter - An Illustrated History of Glass from 1650' - Andy McConnell - 2004.
'The Story of Edinburgh Crystal' - H. W. Woodward - 1984.
Hope this hasn't bored everyone too much :)
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Hi Paul, used to sell pewter tankards many moons ago found a box full in the cellar of a pub that was being knocked down used a site like this for the verification marks. Glasgow had 3 verification marks 34,35,36,
http://www.antique-metalware.co.uk/verification.html
Chris
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thanks Chris - without Peter's earlier comments about Glasgow, I would have suggested that city might have been verification mark 35 in view of the reference to James Couper, Glasgow. Anyway good to have a result, and thanks again.
My comment about .............."the Richardson example and indicates a date of somewhere after 1869, probably".........was a bit thick, since Peter had already explained that the ER puts it into the 1901 - 1910 period :-[
I've a sneaky feeling that Anne may have given me that link some time back - I seem to have bookmarks all over the place - and some earlier ones I now can't access.
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Keith - I'd forget the book for the time being..............can't see one on Abe Books, and the only one on Amazon is £25 plus postage of £2.80!! I know I pay some big money for good hardbacks but this seems a bit steep for a second hand paperback. :o
P.S. Note to Mods. might we consider changing the title of this thread to aid future searches, please :)
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Sure we can, would someone like to suggest a suitable title please? Am too pooped to read it all through at the moment.
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something simple is probably best.............cut/pressed spirit measures.............quarter gill spirit measures..........pub spirit measures.........Scottish spirit measures
or some amalgamation of your choosing :)