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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 04:32:22 PM

Title: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 04:32:22 PM
I thought I'd pay a visit to a local antiques centre today - looked all round, nothing of interest- not even a bit of Vasart - until I reached the end. Oh dear, there it was calling out to me - what could I do - it had to come home with me. Bit of an expensive afternoon out, only could get £20 off the marked price. Still, what do you think  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Bit of a crack on the side, mainly internal though - it would have been a lot more in perfect condition!

Shape FA, just over 9" high - looks spectacular in the sun - photos don't do it justice!

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 04:50:06 PM
The sun has just come out so here are a couple of quick snaps - hope you like them,
Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 13, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
I think that was well worth grabbing, even with some damage. (and with a reduction for the damage.)

It's a scarce and wonderful shape to find, it's lovely and bubbly (bubbly is also unusual) and the colours are just fabby, it's big, it's beautiful... and it's yours, all yours!  ;D ;D ;D

Have you tried a UV torch on it yet, to see if it's got uranium in it?
The colourway looks similar to the bits in Perth that I adore.
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 05:03:08 PM
I was just looking at the cylinder vase and thought it was similar to that in some ways but nowhere near as blue. I must try to get to Perth this summer!
Now I need to re-arrange everything to give it pride of place, I'm still excited  ;D

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 13, 2014, 05:11:32 PM
All the photos of the cylinder vase are lousy. :'(
It's a three dimensional object, it's locked away behind thick bullet- and sue- and garym- and gary-proof glass. ::)
The aventurine in it is really a bronze colour. 8)

I need to know if your new beauty has uranium in it!!!!!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on April 13, 2014, 05:19:48 PM
Well spotted Sue it is the same colourway as the cylinder vase (shape SE) in the museum.
Real nice vase in a spectacular colourway you have there Roberta.
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 13, 2014, 05:47:30 PM
This pic shows the cylinder in Perth slightly differently... but still a lousy pic.

Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 07:29:43 PM
I don't have a UV torch!!

The Perth cylinder looks a totally different colour in the last photo - I do find it fascinating with Monart how they change so much with the lighting.

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 13, 2014, 07:46:36 PM
That's why pics are no good. You need the real thing.
You've GOT the real thing, Roberta.  :P
So hopefully you might get some idea of what the ones in Perth do look like, despite the photos being so awful.
It was knowing what the Perth ones do look like that made me reckon you've got the same colourway here.
That makes the 3rd bit I've seen.

A 2-D image just can't capture 3-D.
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 13, 2014, 08:26:32 PM
I might not have a UV torch but now it's dark I've  put the lamps on  - one behind the vase - it has now taken on  distinctly green glow - weird!

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: flying free on April 13, 2014, 11:24:41 PM
ooooh that's lovely! :D everything is good, shape, decor, colours - really beautiful.
m
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 14, 2014, 10:37:37 AM
What you need is a bit of sunshine - that's got some uv in it. You're looking for a limey green opaque glow.  :)
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 14, 2014, 10:50:25 AM
Early evening sunshine is best
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 14, 2014, 10:58:09 AM
Hi,
I think that the green enamel used has got the Uranium in it, it really is the strangest thing. I don't think the coppery bits at the top are aventurine either,  it look more like a reddy orange enamel with lots of tiny bubbles that make it look metallic. Today it looks like "Peacock feathers" colours.

Must try to get a UV torch,

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: millarart on April 14, 2014, 05:22:24 PM
stunning piece and one of my favourite shapes, damaged or not a real beauty , well done you,
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 14, 2014, 05:40:18 PM
The "aventurine" in the Perth cylinder vase (and the chalice), isn't copper or gold coloured, it's the colour of bronze, and all clustered around the bubbles, so it must have been particulate within the molten glass.

(I saw a fascinating science programme about bubbles in liquids not too long ago; and how particulate matter will adhere to the surfaces of bubbles in liquids, and while the programme was more about using this phenomenon along with ultrasonics, to deliver drugs directly to the point of interest, but it was very relevant to the formation of bubbles in glass, and how we end up with enamel haloes around  them.   ;) )

I've not a clue what it might be. It's not copper, or gold, or mica flakes from Woollies. ;D
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 14, 2014, 05:51:44 PM
Yes, I know what you mean, it is clustered around the bubbles to amazing effect - any techies out there to tell us how it's done?
It reminds me (but in a much more spectacular way) of the Nazeing bubble halos.

By the way, ordered a UV torch today - will post some more pics when it arrives  :)
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: flying free on April 14, 2014, 05:55:04 PM
does it have silver chloride in it?  it  remind me of some of the WMF Ikora pieces.
m
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 14, 2014, 06:05:57 PM
Hi,
I don't think it has silver chloride - it doesn't have the iridescence or the look of my Mdina bits with it in. I think it's just a combination of all the bubbles with the enamel halos around them and the possible uranium glow that gives the effect. But it changes colour with the light like nothing else I've seen - It's like the Alien Vase  ;)
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 14, 2014, 06:13:56 PM
It's all to do with surface interactions and attractions of different valencies...
A little bit like how detergents work.

Surfaces and how they actually operate at the molecular level are a relatively new (and fascinating) field in science.

Yup, these things change the whole time.

That's why it's so horrible having to see them stuck all static, in fixed lighting, through bullet- sue-, garym- and gary-proof glass...

You don't really get to see them at all. :'(
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on April 14, 2014, 07:00:11 PM
I have a Monart bowl in the same type of decoration but with yellow and orange splashes and no gold aventurine.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41564.msg309957.html#msg309957
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: millarart on April 14, 2014, 08:31:45 PM
that the same. doesn't look same to me
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on April 15, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Having seen, handled and photographed three of the pieces in question ( the 2 museum pieces and my own piece) I am still of the opinion, all four pieces (Roberta's piece now included) are the same type of decoration.
All four pieces have as a basis, the citron colour with bubbles as shown in photo 1 my bowl and photo 2 museum goblet.
The only difference between my bowl and the other three is the size and colours of the splashes, where my one has orange and yellow were as the other three the splashes of colour are blue and green.
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 15, 2014, 06:53:50 PM
Has yours got the bronzy colour in it that looks a bit like but isn't aventurine?

Roberta

Got a UV torch today - will try it later when its gone dark!
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 15, 2014, 06:59:06 PM
Exactly what I was going to ask! I can't see any bronze glittery stuff in the bowl.

I suspect it's the yellowy glass that contains the uranium.
But I would not consider the bowl to be the same colourway at all.
It has bubbles and yellow uranium glass, but that's where the similarities end.

Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 15, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
If it doesn't glow a very bright  in daylight or any other kind of light with a UV torch, then it doesn't contain uranium. You don't need to test in in the dark; that can give a false answer if it contains manganese (that is a dull fuzzy yellowish green glow that looks brighter in the dark).
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 15, 2014, 07:58:15 PM
Here are pictures of my alien vase under UV light!  8)

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on April 15, 2014, 08:01:53 PM
Has yours got the bronzy colour in it that looks a bit like but isn't aventurine?
It has.
Exactly what I was going to ask! I can't see any bronze glittery stuff in the bowl.

I suspect it's the yellowy glass that contains the uranium.
But I would not consider the bowl to be the same colourway at all.
It has bubbles and yellow uranium glass, but that's where the similarities end.
What I said, it was the same type of decoration ie uranium, citron colour and bubbles with splashes of colour and not  the same colourway.
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 15, 2014, 08:13:41 PM
Oops, I think we read that a bit wrong - not same colourway same TYPE of decoration!
Yours looks like it has big angular patches of colour - white? But definitely lots of bubbles  :D
Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Frank on April 15, 2014, 10:02:33 PM
They used, rarely, other colours of aventurine. Red, Blue, Green and a Bronzy colour that is hard too see.

Plate 34 in Ysart Glass used red.
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 15, 2014, 10:14:43 PM
But I haven't got a copy.
What exactly is aventurine?

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 15, 2014, 10:21:57 PM
Okay, apparantly Aventurine is a variety of Quartz characterized by bright inclusions of Mica or other minerals that give a shimmering or glistening effect to the stone, most commonly green, though also occurring in blue, red to reddish-brown, dusty purple, orange or peach, yellow, and silver gray.

Now I have learnt something new  :D
Now I just need  Lustrousstone to give me a lesson in Uranium  ;)

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: KevinH on April 16, 2014, 01:14:46 AM
Roberta, you missed out one of common colours for aventurine - gold.

And also note that many Americans refer to it as "adventurine".
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 16, 2014, 06:24:35 AM
Aventurine in glass is a manmade though and based on copper or other metals  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_(gemstone)

What do you want to know about uranium?
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 16, 2014, 08:08:00 AM
Kevin - isn't the "gold" the reddish brown I mention that is copper  ?
Goldstone or aventurine is either copper based giving the colour most commonly seen in Monart, cobalt gives a blue, manganese gives a purple (both appearing more "silvery"), green goldstone forms its reflective particles from chromium oxides rather than the elemental metal. If the copper based one is overheated, past the melting point of copper, it can change to a blue / green colour (put very simply).
What was used for the red one Frank mentions?

Why is Uranium used in glass, what's he difference between the yellow and green? Was it safe for the glass workers?

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 16, 2014, 08:33:52 AM
I'll email you some good links
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: flying free on April 16, 2014, 09:49:26 AM
The 'gold' aventurine as far as I know is made using copper however it's not reddish brown, at least not in the pieces I have with aventurine in them. 
It photographs extremely badly, but in real life the aventurine in the pieces of glass I have are bright shiny sparkly gold.

However, from reading that article, it does seem that once the aventurine is made, some parts of the final lump can be better than others (it says in the wikipedia article the heart of the mass can be the best bit).  Therefore if the worst bits of the mass are used then perhaps it's cheaper and not quite as beautiful(dull browny in colour)? 
Also if aventurine is then used in glass, then  as I understand it, if it is not used at the correct temperatures, it can appear dull and darker (burnt? lol) in the finished article.  I see this in some earlier Chinese glass (Dalian examples that were confused for V Nason Avventurine pieces) that used a lot of aventurine - it appears brown rather than gold in the finished piece where the Nason Avventurine pieces are utterly superb in their 'sparkliness'.

I have spent weeks trying to get my camera to work efficiently to photograph an Italian 19th century paperweight I have with aventurine in, to try and show it off to it's true effect.
This is the best one I can get (attached).  In real life it's effect on the eye is  superb, really  ;D, it's a mass of sparkly shiny lights.
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: flying free on April 16, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
These are pics of some of the V Nason Avventurine pieces I also owned, but at that point had not worked out how to photograph them effectively.
The aventurine in them is utterly superb.  As you can see, they don't photograph well- I suspect that anyone who buys a good aventurine piece online is always delighted with their purchase, because it's just not possible to convey in a photograph the beauty of it on the eye.  But it's definitely not reddish brown.
m
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: glassobsessed on April 16, 2014, 04:17:42 PM
It can be distinctly coppery in colour, as in these goblets.

John
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on April 19, 2014, 01:39:03 PM
The use of red aventurine was sparsely used by the Ysart's in the Monart range, though i believe Paul used it in his paperweights.

Whilst checking what colours were in a small Monart bowl in todays sunlight, something sparkled inside the bowl.
I took some photos with a macro lens, the first one is what I believe to be red aventurine, the second is gold aventurine.
The actual size of of the red adventurine is 1cm long.
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on April 19, 2014, 09:09:27 PM
Thank you everyone for your lovely pictures - I know it always looks much better in real life than on pictures!
Having looked again at my pieces some look really quite coppery, others a much brighter gold, so perhaps it does come down to the chemistry - temperature, the inner or outer bits of the 'lump" etc.

Roberta
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: Gary on May 15, 2014, 07:52:48 PM
At the moment I am transferring all my data of my old lap top to my new desk top and came across  a colour code for your vase and it is 295A.
I cannot post the images of the UB bowl with label 1V+ UB 295A due to copyright.
Gary
Title: Re: Latest Monart purchase - today
Post by: orangeglass on May 15, 2014, 07:56:50 PM
Thanks for that Gary!
Roberta