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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Leni on October 13, 2007, 08:03:03 AM

Title: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on October 13, 2007, 08:03:03 AM
I think this weight is a Strathearn, but it looks a bit out-of-the-ordinary to me, as the centre two circles of canes are smaller than I've seen in other Strathearn weights.  Can anyone tell me anything about it?  Like, who / when / etc.?
Any info you can give me would be most welcome. 
Thanks I.A. 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 06, 2007, 09:03:52 AM
I'm bumping this for another go.

I really have tried myself to find the canes and/or a similar weight on Richard More's site, but with no luck.  PLEASE can someone help me?  I think it looks a like a Strathearn P8 but I see that Richard has some of a similar layout which he has subsequently found to be Perthshires!  Should I be looking through my Perthshire book again? 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 06, 2007, 10:37:33 AM
Their paperweight vases have quite tiny canes. I'll compare my vase with your weight when I get home
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: josordoni on November 06, 2007, 01:43:14 PM
Hi Leni,   :hug:

That's interesting about the Perthshire possibility,  I tend to think of Perthshire in terms of very sharp canes, with the Strathearn ones reminding me of sea anemones, that sort of cone shape? 

So did Perthshire use the anemone canes too?
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 06, 2007, 06:16:39 PM
I'm really puzzled about this one, Lynne.  I had always thought, like you, that Perthshire canes were a bit sharper, but there are a couple of weights on Richard's site which he says he has discovered were not Strathearn but Perthshire, and they  appear to have the slightly more 'squishy' (and that's a technical term, I'll have you know! ;) ) canes I have always associated with Strathearn, but are a bit smaller - like the ones in the middle two circles of my weight.   

I was beginning to wonder what I'd done to upset the experts around here, like Kev and Ray, :-[  :cry:
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 06, 2007, 07:39:51 PM
I am sure you done nothing to offend, but if they cannot add anything straight off - they could well be ferreting out information and IF found report back.

It gets tough to see all the posts these days, I usually only check glass, weights and cafe - but rarely view all the glass or cafe threads. A time thing  :mus: :sleep:
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: RAY on November 06, 2007, 07:57:08 PM
me an expert i dont think so LOL, but the outer cane's do look like them crab stick's you can buy
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 06, 2007, 08:00:26 PM
... but the outer cane's do look like them crab stick's you can buy

Which of course are not really crab meat, so not a great comparison....  ::) on the other hand a great comparison considering the question!
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 06, 2007, 08:23:58 PM
No canes matches but my vase certainly has some tiny canes, they don't even look big through the glass and the magnifying glass, and some of the colours look the same - the dark blue and the bluey green for a start
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: KevinH on November 07, 2007, 11:35:24 AM
Leni, I am not ignoring you (how I could I ever do that?). But I did not see this first time around - I sometimes miss various messages if I don't look in regularly.

Your weight could be either later Vasart or Strathearn. There is no problem with having a mix of different size canes. Perhaps this happened more with Vasart than Strathearn, but I have no sure facts to back that up.

My weight shown in this link (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/vas-strath/weight18.htm) has a cane match with yours - both in the outer rows. I have suggested that mine is "transitional" because I can't tell whether it's Vasart or Strathearn.

And my weight shown in this link (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/vas-strath/weight10.htm) has the smaller inner cane set-up. This one has a Pirelli label proving it's a later period Vasart.
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 07, 2007, 03:55:22 PM
Thank you, Kevin  :hug: 
But I would love to know more about how you decide if a weight is 'transitional'!  :huh:  What time period would that be?  I admit I really haven't taken much notice of Vasart / Strathearn and dates so far.  I must explore your excellent website more thoroughly! 

And yes, I can see your weight and mine both have 'crabstick' canes round the edge!  ;D   
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: KevinH on November 07, 2007, 06:10:20 PM
In this context "transitional" means anything that was made in the few years before or after 1964 and assumes that styles and working methods would not have changed much over those years.

More specifically, for me at least, it means anything that does not easily fit into a "look and feel" of either a known Vasart (56 to 64) or Strathearn (64 to 80), but is clearly from one of those companies. In making a judgement, I compare the features to those I have seen in weights that are signed or labelled or have some other form of provenance.

Problem is, the more I see, the more I realise that some of the design or finishing clues can apply to both companies and possibly for a longer period before and after the 64 changeover date. So, in simpler terms it's a case of, "It could be either, but I ain't sure".

When exploring my web pages, please note that there are some things that need an update. Such as this weight (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/vas-strath/weight15.htm) which, in the light of extra info, I believe is an early Perthshire Paperweights and not Strathearn. I must get around to those updates one day (hmmm, I seem to keep saying that ::)).
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2007, 06:21:05 PM
Vasart closed down the Shore Works on the 26th December 1964.

On January 22nd, 1965, the Strathearn glass factory opened at Muthill Road, Crieff, with Vincent Ysart as works manager. Strathearn was the first glassworks in Europe to fire its furnaces with propane gas. Later the same year, Vincent left the factory to work as a filing clerk for GAFLAC (General Accident, Fire & Life Assurance Company) in Perth until he died in 1971, following a fall from a ladder at work.

The staff were the same and work just continued, all that changed was location, name and management. It was some time before Strathearn evolved to completely it's own products and materials - this is called the transitional period... so 1965 to 1968 (ish) is likely period when significant Vasart period canes would be used.

The use of propane gas appears to have had no noticeable change in the glass but the use of the Leaping Salmon seal did. Blowing the glass to the thickness used at Vasart gave insufficient strength to use the seal and as a consequence Strathearn gllassware would be made thicker. Which is the easiest way of recognising unmarked Strathearn (with ground off seal and added basal ring) - obviously the thicker glass weights did not need any compensation.

It is therefore likely that weights made to fill an order on the 26th December 1964 and those made a month later to complete such an order would be indistinguishable without a label. If the batch had Pirelli labels, then Pirelli labels would have been on those made at Strathearn too.

In time it is likely that different glass chemistry and sources of colours would change.
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2007, 06:23:42 PM
Snap.

Except Kevin also allows for vagueness to apply to before the move! I disagree mildly.
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 07, 2007, 06:30:18 PM
Thanks, Kevin and Frank  :hiclp: 

I'm intrigued at this confusion between Strathearn and Perthshire weights, which both Richard and Kev have noted.  I wonder if anyone is able to explain this to me?  Is there a person or persons who worked at both glasshouses and made canes at both, or took canes from one to the other?  Who might that be?  Do we know? 

The more I learn, the more I'm amazed at how much I still don't know!  :o  ::)
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2007, 06:43:36 PM
Stuart Drysdale remained as manager of Strathearn until February 1968 when, in his words, he was ‘forced to leave’. He went on to set up Perthshire Paperweights, mainly producing millefiori and lampwork paperweights. He took Jack Allan and a few others with him including Peter McDougall and John Deacons.

Companies: http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/YGcompany.htm (staff incomplete)
People: http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/YGpeople.htm
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 07, 2007, 08:02:49 PM
Frank, that's fascinating!  Thank you very much!   :hiclp: 

So the first 'Perthshire' paperweight canes could have been made by any (or all?) of Jack Allan, Peter McDougall or John Deacons, I suppose.   I wonder if they would recognise their own work today from those early weights?  I knew about Peter McDougall and think I can recognise his canes in Perthshire weights, but I simply hadn't realised that John Deacons and Jack Allan were also involved at the beginning of Perthshire.  I would really love to know exactly which canes were whose!   I must look again, more closely, at all my millefiori weights! 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on November 07, 2007, 08:56:39 PM
I have a lot of Perthshire and McDougall millefiori in my cabinet. That center cane looks like it was made in the same cane molds McDougall uses today. I know I've seen canes like that center group in a Perthshire, probably a closepack. I will have to search through my collection with a magnifying glass to find them
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2007, 09:02:30 PM
Jack was the top gaffer, he started under Salvador in 1948 so had 20 years behind him at that point - certainly missing from the lists is Dave Moir (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=35) who started at Vasart in 1954 and left when Stuart took over Strathearn.
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 07, 2007, 10:48:23 PM
Did Dave Moir pull canes as well, Frank? 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2007, 11:25:03 PM
Probably  :huh:


Kevin?
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: tropdevin on November 08, 2007, 10:24:37 AM
I seem to remember from the talk Dave Moir gave to the NPS last year that he was certainly involved in pulling canes. He also described how various one-off weights were made when the bosses were not around! Hence some of the interesting weights he still owns.

Leni - I don't know what Paperweight books you own, but the history of Vasart / Strathearn / Perthshire and who worked at them is discussed in some of them (eg Scottish Paperweights by Bob Hall, Paperweights from Great Britain by John Simmonds, though not in intricate detail), and then there is the family tree of scottish makers that Dave Webber has put together (in a PCA Bulletin). Here is a link to my general collectors and Paperweights Book list: http://astore.amazon.co.uk/collectorssite-21 (http://astore.amazon.co.uk/collectorssite-21).  Hope this helps.

Alan
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 08, 2007, 01:40:12 PM
Thank you, Alan.  I recently bought the Perthshire Paperweights book, but I haven't got Bob's book, or the Paperweights of Great Britain.  Perhaps Bob will have a copy of his for sale at Gaydon!  I'll look out for them both.  I clearly need them!  ::)

I have the PCA 2005 Annual Bulletin with Dave Webber's article about a rare Jack Allan weight.  Which bulletin was Dave's 'family tree' in?  Could I get hold of a copy? 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: tropdevin on November 10, 2007, 12:52:51 PM
Hi Leni

In my opinion no-one can have too many paperweight reference books! I don't think Bob will be at Gaydon, as he is not very well.  Sweetbriar may have the books, but it is worth checking via the link I posted what the cheapest second hand price is.

Regarding Dave Webber's article (The Evolution of Scottish Paperweight Makers), it was first in the PCA 2000 Bulletin, then appeared updated in the 2003 Bulletin.

Regards

Alan
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: Leni on November 10, 2007, 01:18:09 PM
Thanks, Alan.  Sorry to hear Bob's not well.  Will we see you at Gaydon? 

I'll certainly have a look for Bob's book, and also see if I can get hold of the 2003 Bulletin. 
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: josordoni on January 19, 2008, 02:21:24 PM
Has anyone heard if Bob is feeling better? I was only thinking about him this morning...
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: tropdevin on January 19, 2008, 03:42:14 PM
Hi.

I spoke to Bob Hall earlier today.  He is much improved, and looking forward to starting his hospital-based rehabilitation treatment shortly. I gather that could last 3 months or more though.

Alan
Title: Re: Anyone tell me anything about this Strathearn?
Post by: josordoni on January 19, 2008, 03:52:12 PM
 thank you !  I am pleased to hear that and hope that all continues to go well for him.

Could you try to keep us posted?