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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Resolved Paperweight Queries => Topic started by: Anne on January 01, 2005, 02:48:20 AM

Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... ID = Caithness related to the "Zodiac" Collection
Post by: Anne on January 01, 2005, 02:48:20 AM
This one has an odd story behind it... I was given it by a friend who came to stay with me in London some 20 years ago. She told me that her then husband had been doing some building work for someone up in the north of Scotland and when it came to settle up for the work the client paid the bill with a box of paperweights. She said there was maybe 20-30 weights in the box, and she'd been giving them out to family and friends as presents. Mine was one of them... she didn't know which company had made them, nor where in Scotland her husband had been (up the top somewhere! was as much as she knew), so I was wondering, can anyone throw any light on this paperweight for me please?
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: KevinH on January 03, 2005, 01:32:58 AM
Anne,

The weight is in the category which I call "interesting". I think it might be an early, non-production item from Perthshire Paperweights.

The central cane (which, as yet, I cannot find a match for) and the two other better quality ones have a Perthshire Paperweights look to them. And the general design of scattered canes on "lace" [a bit like the weight mentioned in the Ysart and Related Glass messages] was certainly a feature in their production ranges from 1971 onwards, although I believe these usually (always?) had the lace set over a coloured ground.

In the book Paperweights From Great Britain 1930-2000, John Simmonds illustrates a similar item to yours, but with a few more canes, including a "P 1969" cane, and which he describes as "very early undocumented spaced millefiori ...". 1969 was the start of regular production at Perthshire Paperweights.

The link in the story to "up the top somewhere" of Scotland could give the impression that the weights may have been made in that locality. But 20 years ago there were only two main makers "up the top" - Caithness Glass and Paul Ysart, both at Wick. I'll stick my neck out and say that your weight was not made by either of those.

Although it is probably not possible to find out now, it would be good to know what the other weights were like.
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on January 03, 2005, 03:51:10 AM
Thanks for the reply Kev, now you've set me wondering as well. Up the top of Scotland to my friend meant somewhere north of Gretna I think! In those days she hadn't ventured even as far north as Cumbria, so Scotland probably seemed like another continent!

I'd come to the conclusion that it's not Ysart after reading Frank's site and yours today. If it helps to know, the bottom is totally smooth - no pontil mark at all.  

I've no idea what the rest of the weights looked like, I only saw this one, and my friend doesn't recall what they were like either. Perth does ring a very vague bell, so maybe her hubbie mentioned to me where he'd been working - it's a long time ago and I can't really remember.
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anonymous on November 03, 2005, 09:00:27 AM
Isn't that central cane the zodiac sign for Aquarius?
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on November 03, 2005, 05:29:01 PM
Now you mention it, yes I believe it is. I hadn't thought of that before - I'm a Scorpio so not my sign. ;)
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: RAY on November 03, 2005, 07:24:18 PM
yep it is perthshire and a star sign, me and allan scott were talking about these weights about a month ago
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on November 03, 2005, 11:04:29 PM
OK, thanks Ray, were these a regular production item do you know? If so do you know who made them at PP?
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: KevinH on November 03, 2005, 11:13:08 PM
Not sure of the details, but I think the Zodiac canes must have been in the last few years of PP. They are not shown in the book The Complete Guide to Perthshire Paperweights which was published in 1997.

And I have not heard any latest news on the proposed follow-up book, covering PP weights since 1997.
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on November 03, 2005, 11:36:04 PM
Interesting, thanks Kev.I've had this since long before 1997 though - at least 15 years, possibly up to 20 years since my friend gave it to me. Could they have been tried earlier and then shelved perhaps?
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: KevinH on November 04, 2005, 12:19:18 AM
Yes, that is interesting.

Maybe there was a range of canes and weights that were simply not mentioned in the book? Or maybe I will have to ask some more questions of those in the know?

But there's another possibility. I didn't mention it when the thrread was first posted because the closest thought was unproven and did not properly match the actual evidence ... What happened was that I had mentioned this "wavy line" cane to a member of the Paperweight Collectors Circle who is very knowledgeable on one-off Perthshire Paperweights items and also on variations on regular production items. He suggested it could have been a commission for a company and we tentatively thought about ICI, which uses a 'double-wave' Logo. But that logo has a different number of wave crests and I would have thought the letters "ICI" would have been included. It could still be a company logo cane, though.
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: RAY on November 04, 2005, 09:41:05 PM
it's caithness

this is what Allan Scott said

centre cane is from our 1983 "zodiac" design which had all 12 signs in it,and the actual pattern is that of our 1981 "initial"designs so the general opinion is that because the canes are obviously not top quality ,that it was probably a "homer" for one of the workers or their family ,friends etc


thanks Allan
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on November 04, 2005, 10:37:48 PM
Allan and Ray, thank you. This makes perfect sense. From what my friend said, about her hubby being given a box of these whilst doing some building works in a glass works, I have long suspected they were either seconds or trial pieces. The date fits as well, so I think that wraps the puzzle up nicely. Much appreciate all your time and thoughts over this. :) (I don't suppose Allan would remember a Mancunian Jamaican builder coming to do some work then would he? That would be the icing on the cake!  :lol:  8) )
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: KevinH on November 05, 2005, 01:30:10 AM
Yes, it's good to get a resolution on a second look. And I also add my thanks to Allan (via Ray) for the information.

However, having perused my Caithness references, I would add that the design "Initial" had 6 surrounding canes rather than 5 and had a base of coloured ribbon twists rather than spaced filgree, which is a predominate feature of Anne's. (The idea for the "Initial" weight was that the customer could request a personal initial to be placed as the central cane, hence the name.)

There was also another design in 1981 called "The Glassmaker" which used a very similar ribbon twist base as "Initial" but this did have a 5-cane surround. (This latter design used silhouette canes depicting glass making tools.)

I'm not suggesting that Allan's information is incorrect. But perhaps whoever made Anne's weight could have based the design on a memory of at least a couple of weights rather than one specific one?

Whatever happened, it is certainly true that Anne's item is sufficiently different from the production "Initial" and "The Glassmaker" designs, and very much different from the "Zodiac" design, to have completely baffled me in its identification.  :)

----------------

Oh, and as an extra thought, particularly for Ray, in relation to his Bar Set item with "hollow" cane ( http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3024.0.html ), take a close look at the surrounding canes in Anne's weight. There are canes with an apparent hollow centre and with a tiny rod in an otherwise "hollow" centre. So, had Anne's weight not had the identifiable central cane, maybe we would have been making some sort of Ysart / Vasart / Strathearn connection???? What a difference a cane makes  :!:
Title: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Allan on November 05, 2005, 03:10:17 PM
Hi,
   Just a note to say that you are probably right,Kev, that whoever made the weight was just using whatever was at hand and set up the design without really copying exactly the actual production designs.The company would of probably been against anyone duplicating exact designs for their own purposes.There are so many "homers"made in the glass trade that it must be a nightmare for people to find their origins.I know there has been a lot of what we call "name weights" made for workers relatives at birthdays and anniversaries,over the years, at Caithness which will no doubt drive collectors mad in the future trying to identify them. :lol:
                                      Allan
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on June 22, 2007, 11:10:50 AM
I had seen a similar weight on ebay with the virgo symbol not too long ago - and now (arrived today) I bought one with the aquarius symbol myself - similar to Anne's - but with 6 (not just 5) canes surrounding the symbol cane. Whilst this fact alone will not be very interesting to most of you - there is a surprise:

It's etch signed "Caithness - Zodiac - Scotland" !

I guess, having a "non-existing" weight with Caithness signature just compensates my limited Caithness without signature ;D.

But what do you, Allan, make of this? Would someone making a "homer" dare to "officially" etch sign this item?
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: ALLAN on June 22, 2007, 06:20:53 PM
Hi Wolf,
          Does your weight have any sort of number etched on the base.If it does it will be a legitimate weight.
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on June 22, 2007, 08:40:11 PM
No number - just the "Caithness - Zodiac - Scotland" - which looks entirely authentic (I have dozens to compare it with).
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: cfosterk on June 26, 2007, 09:16:47 PM
Hi Anne,

Definitely Caithness/Whitefriars 'zodiac' central cane - the cane cane be seen in Robert Halls 'Scottish Paperweights' book illustrated on page 109. The cane is illustrated at around 2 o'clock.

I'm intriged by the manufacturer though....
Title: Caithness - zodiac with single zodiac cane
Post by: Wuff on August 22, 2009, 08:55:16 AM
nadine is right now offering another one (http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350241188790) of these weights - this is already the fifth on i see - all with different zodiac signs - which brings me to my suggestion:

we have as 'official' caithness weights
- 'initial' of 1981: this design with a central letter, so the customer could decide which letter he wanted, e.g. initial of his name.
- 'the zodiac' of 1983 with all 12 signs.

we have several examples of these 'unknown' weights of the 'initial' design - but with a single zodiac cane in the centre. could it be that some customers saw the 'initial' design - and asked for a corresponding weight containing their zodiac sign? consequently a small number was made, possibly even upon request, without ever becoming an official design?

just a thought - wolf
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Alsretro on August 15, 2012, 12:12:28 PM
...and another one turns up with what I think is the Zodiac sign for Scorpio. This one is also marked Caithness Zodiac Scotland and again with no number.
Alastair
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 15, 2012, 05:32:10 PM
No - it's Virgo - see cutout images below.
I would very much appreciate your permission to use your image for Scotland's Glass, though - mentioning you as copyright holder, of course.
Best regards - Wolf
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Alsretro on August 15, 2012, 06:11:48 PM
Silly me - not only do I know very little about paperweights, I know much less about astrology type stuff. As ever with your good self more than happy for you to use the image, either the one I've put on this thread or I'll try to get a better larger version and email it to you.
Alastair
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 15, 2012, 07:39:56 PM
Silly me - not only do I know very little about paperweights, I know much less about astrology type stuff.
Not to worry - almost all I know about astrology is the Caithness Zodiac weight(s).

.. or I'll try to get a better larger version and email it to you.
Alastair
Higher resolution images are always better: you find an email button for me in the left hand column.
Thank you very much, and best regards - Wolf
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Alsretro on August 15, 2012, 08:19:53 PM
Full size pictures have been sent Wuff.
But should have added for here that this weight measures 2 3/4ins wide x 2ins high. Has been tricky (even with the cornflour thing) to get a decent picture of the markings but an attempt at it here.
Alastair

[Mod: Image in this post removed on request. Please see below for clear image of the base markings.]
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: paperweights on August 15, 2012, 10:42:04 PM
OK, just to confuse matters more,  I have a "Whitefriars" Zodiac weight from the Caithness period with the same zodiac canes and a Whitefriars 1983 signature cane.  On lace with a threaded overlay. 
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 15, 2012, 10:51:04 PM
Correct - that's the "official" Zodiac weight - see Scotland's Glass (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1044&category_id=50&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6).
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on August 16, 2012, 11:25:37 PM
Wuff, do you want pics of mine at the top of the topic? If so I can email some over for you.
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 17, 2012, 07:48:43 AM
Wuff, do you want pics of mine at the top of the topic? If so I can email some over for you.
That would be appreciated - though they will not be published on Scotland's Glass immediately: one reason is the backlog of images we have there already; but then this is a somewhat confusing story, as already indicated by this thread. There doesn't seem to be just a few "homers" ... by now I have images of 6 different zodiac signs (own one myself), including several with the official "Caithness - ZODIAC - Scotland" marking to the base - and one marked "Artist's Proof" and sold in 2007 when the Caithness Museum was sold.
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 17, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
However, having perused my Caithness references, I would add that the design "Initial" had 6 surrounding canes rather than 5 and had a base of coloured ribbon twists rather than spaced filgree, which is a predominate feature of Anne's. (The idea for the "Initial" weight was that the customer could request a personal initial to be placed as the central cane, hence the name.)

There was also another design in 1981 called "The Glassmaker" which used a very similar ribbon twist base as "Initial" but this did have a 5-cane surround. (This latter design used silhouette canes depicting glass making tools.)

I'm not suggesting that Allan's information is incorrect. But perhaps whoever made Anne's weight could have based the design on a memory of at least a couple of weights rather than one specific one?

The spaced filgree is taken from Zodiac, and differs from Initial and Glassmaker - so obviously features of different designs were used. The number of surrounding canes does not point to a specific pattern - these "single Zodiac" weights exist with both, 5 and 6 surrounding canes. The idea of it, I guess, is that of Initial: like the customer buying a weight with his (or his friend's) initial in the centre, he would get his (or his friend's) zodiac sign in the centre.
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Alsretro on August 17, 2012, 05:54:13 PM
For reference and with thanks to Wuff for the handy hint to scan tricky to read marks and his deftness with my scanned image, here is a much improved picture of the marks. Maybe some clever person could delete my rubbish effort further up this thread or I suppose it could be left as an object lesson in how not to do it.  :)
Alastair
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Anne on August 18, 2012, 02:14:30 AM
No probs, Wuff, I'll send them and then you have them for whenever they may be useful. I know about the workload you have over there. ;)
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: mjr on August 26, 2012, 05:12:08 PM
and one appears on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Caithness-Zodiac-Paperweight-Capricorn-with-Certificate-/290766640845?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item43b30ad6cd (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Caithness-Zodiac-Paperweight-Capricorn-with-Certificate-/290766640845?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item43b30ad6cd)
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 26, 2012, 07:51:38 PM
... which makes it number 7 (of 12) - IF Capricorn - unfortunately the image is not really sharp, and there is a flare on the central cane >:(. I'll ask the seller for better pics.

Best regards - Wolf
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: tropdevin on August 05, 2013, 01:16:27 PM
***
Hi.

Here is another example: etched 'Caithness Zodiac Scotland' on the base. The central symbol is Cancer, I think.

Alan
Title: Re: Scottish paperweight puzzle... =Perthshire NO Caithness
Post by: Wuff on August 05, 2013, 06:22:14 PM
...: etched 'Caithness Zodiac Scotland' on the base.
Thank you for confirming the maker (again), Alan ... perhaps it would be the time now to correct the thread title ::).