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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: David E on June 03, 2006, 10:31:56 AM

Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 10:31:56 AM
Oh heck, why did I start this...? :roll:

In respect to Chance's 'Swirl' pattern, a few oddities are starting to crop up. Some I already know about, but there are a few that are causing me to query which is which :?

Christine recently posted one plate that I'm confident is not Swirl: smugly I pointed out that the swirl went in the opposite direction, and the fluting was not a Chance shape. Fine. Max also had the dish with a boar's head in the centre 'hole' that we eventually found to be Filigran by Unionglas. Okey-dokey.

However, I've now come across another two examples (one in my own collection :oops: ) where the swirl is in the opposite direction, but the shapes look right, so I feel the need to 'nail this sucker' as it's starting to annoy me! :twisted:

Here's one where the swirl is in the 'wrong' direction (anti-clockwise):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419813015

Note the gilt appears to overlap slightly (not necessarily Chance) but the design does not go to the edge (Chance-like). Size is also like Chance, so is it Chance? :?

We already know that Sherdley made a copy-cat design (we assume) called 'Twist'. However, I've still to find a piece that's been positively attributed to this design: a few possibilities but that's all.

I've decided to create a new page on http://www.chanceglass.net to show these anomolies... but any thoughts in the meantime?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne E.B. on June 03, 2006, 11:23:58 AM
David - do my eyes deceive me? :shock:  or do the lines look  much thicker than the Chance Swirl lines, and the gilt much heavier and thicker too?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 11:36:19 AM
Well spotted, Anne :shock:

There are several possible deciding factors:
* Colour of spirals (often light-grey although later Swirl may have got brighter)
* Gilt edging (Chance did not usually overlap, but I may have some examples that do!)
* Direction of spiral — always clockwise that I can determine
* Spiral going to the edge of rim. Chance did on some examples, but not always?
* Spacing between spirals: I have one example where the swirls are in the wrong direction, but the spacing is exactly the same.
* Thickness of spirals

Lastly:
* Curve of spirals - some examples are not as tight as known Chance, but the trouble is this is not consistent across Chance's own range and the pattern/transfer was adapted to suit the plate/dish/bowl/glass/jug/carafe (et al) it was being used for. This will have to be compared like-for-like, i.e. the same sizes.

I'll post photos of my findings on this new web page, but have just found myself a whole load of work :?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 03, 2006, 01:15:19 PM
:D :shock: :D

I've never paid any attention to the direction of the spirals - it's a "right -left" sort of problem, and I have to make a conscious effort, using extra image-pairing and anacronym things to work out which is which.

I did start to wonder about the number of arms on the spirals, though, but soon gave up when I realised that footed pudding bowls had a much smaller centre circle than the bread basket. (the 2 bits I have immediately to hand). I then had a look at the one on ebay which David says is in the wrong direction, thinking to count arms if it was the same size.

My bread basket is in the same direction as that one!!!!!!!

The ends of the arms reach the edges of the basket. Looking carefully at the edges of the basket, there is a very slim, ground and polished edge between the flat of the rim and the side of the bowl. This was gilded, along with the surface of the rim. The ends of the arms of the spiral are actually on this polished edge too, under the gilding. I can see this where the gilding has rubbed off.

Not a useless bread basket after all!
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 01:32:41 PM
Thanks for your input, Sue (I think!) :lol:

I can hardly think that someone else would copy Chance's shapes so closely, as well as their pattern. I'm wondering if the transfer makers made a batch that went in the opposite direction? :oops: Perhaps a whole new collecting area for Chancers: 'The Mistakes' :wink:

You are right though: the central hole does vary in size, as do the spiral arms (frequency, gap, curve, etc.) The Giraffe Carafe and other drinkware throws everything into the mixing pot as well, so best to ignore these at this stage! My serviette holder also appears to go in the 'wrong' direction as well, so I'm not too sure about the reliability of that attribution!

OK, well I have been in touch with Tony Cartwright (just back off a cruise :sigh:) and will be meeting him soon, so perhaps he can shed some light on these oddities.

Web page now posted to get the thing rolling. Look under the 'Fiestaware' menu option and there's one for 'Swirl Imitations'. I still have a few possible photos to put under the 'Sherdley Twist?' section.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Frank on June 03, 2006, 01:39:45 PM
Who made the transfers :?:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 01:45:15 PM
I'm trying to find this out, Frank. I've asked Tony and he might have the answer.

EDIT: I sent him a batch of questions that will really help the research.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 03, 2006, 05:44:34 PM
Just to add some more confusion to the pile David... I have photos of two sets which have both directions of swirls on them. One is a ruby swirl sandwich set where the large plate swirls clockwise and the small plates swirl anti-clockwise; the other is a clear swirl boat-shaped set where the larger boat swirls anti-clockwise and the smaller ones clockwise.

I think rather than assume alternative makers we need to consider the transfers themselves... could they be used either side up? Was their use both ways a standard thing or was it a feature of sets such as those I have pics of?

We may be able to attribute the variations in edging thickness, raggediness or otherwise of the central hole, and whether the lines meet the rim to slight changes over time as the pattern was tweaked / updated just slightly. Not enough so that consumers thought it was a whole new pattern but just to keep it looking fresh. Just a thought for discussion.  8)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne E.B. on June 03, 2006, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: "DenCill"
I'm wondering if the transfer makers made a batch that went in the opposite direction? :oops: Perhaps a whole new collecting area for Chancers: 'The Mistakes' :wink:

OK, well I have been in touch with Tony Cartwright (just back off a cruise :sigh:) and will be meeting him soon, so perhaps he can shed some light on these oddities.


Thats it :!:  There's your answer to spirals going in the opposite direction!
Obviously made by members of Chance Glass as they crossed the Equator 8)  :lol:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Frank on June 03, 2006, 06:36:21 PM
Transfer would be one sided, but the negative could be reversed for a batch. I am inclined to suspect it was deliberate though.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 03, 2006, 07:51:39 PM
Frank, I thought they would be one-sided but wasn't sure. Are they like the water-slide transfers? Somewhere I have  a catalogue from a firm who makes those for the pottery industry. I use them as centres for painted plates and suchlike.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 03, 2006, 08:01:18 PM
:D:?:D

I was recently told something about commercial rug-weaving and the Jaquard process. Apparently, two rugs are woven at the same time, using the same pattern and frame, one on top and one on the bottom, so they turn out to be mirror images of each other. This was told to me by a chap selling us some amazing Jaquard rugs. It may be a load of codswallop, but perhaps the transfers were produced in a similar way?
Perhaps it was something as simple as it not mattering which side of the transfer-enamel pattern was attached to the paper used to transfer it, and one worker doing this task was left-handed. If you see what I mean. :?  :oops:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Frank on June 03, 2006, 08:21:15 PM
These are printed onto a backing, te only way to reverse it is by reversing the negative.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 03, 2006, 08:33:11 PM
:D:oops::D

Ok!
Was a cover then put on the backing, the way you see with temporary tattoos, etc. that peeled off at a later date? Perhaps some stuck to the cover, rather than the backing, the way etc. and artificial tattoos do?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 09:47:42 PM
Sorry folks, just got back.

With regard to the transfer: Frank you are right about the inability to reverse them, however, Swirl might actually have been a silk-screen print and not something I can rule out at this stage.

While virtually all of the floral designs were transfers (Silhouette or Elegance weren't) I believe most of the graphic designs were silk-screen. Again, this is one of the many questions I've asked Tony Cartwright.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 03, 2006, 09:51:52 PM
While I think about it: Designer of Swirl?

There is a suspicion that it could have been Robert Goodden, who also designed Spiderweb. As yet unconfirmed.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Max on June 04, 2006, 10:23:09 AM
Finally got through this thread and found the photos David!

Here's the boars head swirl:

(http://i5.tinypic.com/11lmtc7.jpg)

(http://i6.tinypic.com/11lmtj7.jpg)

You mentioned earlier about Chance gilt not overlapping I think that's what you mean, but I could have misunderstood?

I bought a boxed set of swirl a while ago, because I could see they were immaculate condition.  The gilt on them certainly overlaps, and the overall quality is much higher than my other swirl items, even the glass feels slightly more robust.

I'm wondering if the older stuff was better made and therefore had a touch more gilt?

http://i5.tinypic.com/11lmtn7.jpg   <~ the swirl
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 10:46:30 AM
Thanks Max!

Oh heck, I've just noticed the swirls go in the 'right' direction! :shock:

I'd always assumed this was Filigran (Unionglas, German), but I'm not sure now. Erm, can you give me the exact sizes, pretty please 8) Could be a customised Chance item, so possibly quite scarce.

With regard to the gilt overlapping, this does occur on some pieces (carafe for example), but it might have been confined to older pieces as you surmise. Tony Cartwright mentioned that – he was quite definite about this – this was never a Chance feature. However he was 'only' at Chance from 1959-81!

The gilt does vary in brightness too. I've yet to determine any reason for this, but could be age related, or how it's been exposed to sunlight, etc.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 01:09:27 PM
Web site updated to include Christine's Swirl example (possibly Twist), Max's 'boar' dish and some other odd 'uns.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 04, 2006, 01:43:58 PM
Max's boxed set has gilding much like my Fligran 'Swirl' a bright gold colour and overlapping about 2mm. My Night Sky has a bright coppery gold edging (quite a different shade) that overlaps about 1 mm and other known Chance I've seen has quite dull, almost an old gold, gilding.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: bubbles on June 04, 2006, 02:15:42 PM
David
Just revisited your site again,  can't believe how much it has grown in such a short time! Well done!
I notice that you don't have a picture of a rounded 3-sided nut dish,  I think I have one of these in the calypto pattern would you like a picture of it?  Please let me know.



Did I really buy it?  Well it just sort of jumped into my hand and adopted me, who was I to refuse! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 04, 2006, 02:17:09 PM
:D:D:D

When folk are talking about the gilding overlapping, could they look to see if the overlap is actually on a thin border of ground and polished edge that lies between the side and rim proper of the piece?
My bread basket has such a border, but that might be a feature of the rim being deeply curved.
Looking at a bit of Calypto which does not seem to overlap, it does not have a thin polished border.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 04, 2006, 03:41:15 PM
Night Sky gilding definitely goes on to the top surface. No bevelled edge at all.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 05:45:47 PM
I think early Chance items gilding may have overlapped gilt. In most cases where this has happened, the gilt seems quite shiny. However, worn gilt probably goes dull and who knows what effect ageing has on it if it wasn't stored away?

Sue, when I talk about overlapping, I mean where the gilt actually comes onto the faces of the glass. The ground face can sometimes be square, with bevels, and even slightly rounded. If you see the web site (Swirl Imitators page, last photo in right column) there is an example that shows what I mean by 'overlapping'.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 06:18:25 PM
Now for something completely different...
 as some bloke once said.

Radical thinking: I've just gone through a huge amount of Chance glass, and the only items I can find WITH any meaningful, overlapping gilt has the 'Swirl' pattern. All the rest is edge painted: some of it shiny, some quite matte (but in the last case, often a little worn)

So... that being the case, this could mean that ALL 'Swirl' with overlapping gilt is actually another make, like Twist... :shock: Remember, Tony Cartwright was most emphatic that Chance simply painted the edge.

Gulp, that's a bit of a bombshell! But it would explain soooooo many things! 8)

Pat, I forgot to respond properly. Thanks for your praise and I'm so glad people are taking real advantage of the data — but remember this is all our work, not just mine! :D

Just don't ask me to put a frilly pink border onto the web pages :lol:

While I do have one example of the 3-sided nut dish, I would always welcome photos of other patterns, so please feel free to post them. Probably best on the main Chance thread though. :P
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Frank on June 04, 2006, 06:26:34 PM
Quote from: "DenCill"
Just don't ask me to put a frilly pink border onto the web pages :lol:


Frilly gold then :P
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 06:58:14 PM
Quote from: "Frank"
Quote from: "DenCill"
Just don't ask me to put a frilly pink border onto the web pages :lol:


Frilly gold then :P

Hmmm........ rub chin, thinking  :lol:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 04, 2006, 07:24:26 PM
David, whilst looking at the reverse swirls yesterday I was thinking there may be more than one maker involved in the pics I have too. There are oddities in centers as well as the edging.  We could do with looking at all the images we have and see which ones have labels and assume pro temps they are Chance and then see what we have that matches or doesn't match those.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 09:16:44 PM
The problem with this, Anne, is that we don't have many with labels. I doubt whether there'd be many from the 1950s that still have them. However, there may also be some with boxes – assuming they haven't been interchanged with another plate.

We also know certain shapes, going from other known Chance patterns. One problem here is that these were also copied very closely.

Reverse Swirl (counter-clockwise) I believe is a Chance anomaly on some of these examples like the Ruby version (Max's) that demonstrates this.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Max on June 04, 2006, 09:32:31 PM
Quote
So... that being the case, this could mean that ALL 'Swirl' with overlapping gilt is actually another make, like Twist...


You mention the boxes in your subsequent posting David.  Is it worth getting my swirl box out and photographing it?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 04, 2006, 10:23:53 PM
Quote from: "DenCill"
While I think about it: Designer of Swirl?

There is a suspicion that it could have been Robert Goodden, who also designed Spiderweb. As yet unconfirmed.


Found an obituary for Robert Goodden which gives his association dates with Chance Glass which pre-date the date we have for Swirl (1955):
Quote
Also in the early Thirties began Goodden's involvement with the industrial manufacturers Chance Brothers, designing mass-produced pressed domestic glassware, a relationship that continued until 1948.

Source: The Independent 13 April 2002 transcribed here (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020413/ai_n12608155)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 04, 2006, 10:40:13 PM
Quote from: "Max"
Quote
So... that being the case, this could mean that ALL 'Swirl' with overlapping gilt is actually another make, like Twist...


You mention the boxes in your subsequent posting David.  Is it worth getting my swirl box out and photographing it?

Thanks Max. It wasn't me who mentioned it, but I suppose we do need any proof of definite Swirl patterns. Oh what a tangled web we weave... :roll:

Quote
Also in the early Thirties began Goodden's involvement with the industrial manufacturers Chance Brothers, designing mass-produced pressed domestic glassware, a relationship that continued until 1948.

Anne: That would fit as Goodden also designed Lotus (1948), but I wonder how reliable it is. Perhaps Goodden took on the odd commission afterwards? More confirmation needed.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 04, 2006, 11:51:51 PM
After 1948 he designed for various places e.g. Wedgewood, but was primarily a professor at the RCA, and then involved with the Festival of Britain and some prestigious commissions - such as a kettle for the Duke of Edinburgh (it was a Xmas pressie for the Queen apparently!) I've read all the obits I can find online (around 6 of them) and they all include slightly varied detail but they all refer to the glass designs as either during the time Goodden had his own design practice (1933-39) or before 1948.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 05, 2006, 07:59:36 AM
Thanks for that: I wasn't doubting this, but from past experience it's unwise to rely on a single written report. But if this information is being substantiated that's fair enough.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 05, 2006, 06:02:12 PM
I also checked the Dictionary of National Biography (DNB) as our county libraries have a remote access deal with them (in fact most libraries subscribe) and their very detailed bio substantiates what I read in the Goodden obits as well.

What I haven't been able to find is any supporting evidence for the alleged Casson designs - all I find when searching for Casson and Glass are the endless eBay items. I did read that there's something in Jackson's 20th Century Factory Glass about this but as I don't have a copy I cannot confirm. Can someone with the book check the reference for Margaret Casson and see if there's a quoted source for the info please?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: robbo on June 05, 2006, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: "Anne"
Can someone with the book check the reference for Margaret Casson and see if there's a quoted source for the info please?


Anne,
Lesley Jackson mentions Swirl, dates it to 1955, production to "mid-1960s" and describes it as "a pin-wheel pattern printed in dove grey". It goes on to say "Swirl was followed by a knobbly-line pattern called Night Sky (1957), inspired by diagrams of stellar formations, which was designed by Margaret Casson, along with Green Leaves (1958)." So she gives no designer for Swirl. There are no references for the Casson attributions of Night Sky and Green Leaves.
robbo
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 05, 2006, 08:04:07 PM
Quote from: "robbo"
Quote from: "Anne"
Can someone with the book check the reference for Margaret Casson and see if there's a quoted source for the info please?


Anne,
Lesley Jackson mentions Swirl, dates it to 1955, production to "mid-1960s" and describes it as "a pin-wheel pattern printed in dove grey". It goes on to say "Swirl was followed by a knobbly-line pattern called Night Sky (1957), inspired by diagrams of stellar formations, which was designed by Margaret Casson, along with Green Leaves (1958)." So she gives no designer for Swirl. There are no references for the information.
robbo

Robbo,
I'm not entirely conviced that Swirl finished production in the mid-60s. I have one of Chance's publicity card, early 1970s, that promotes the gilt version of Swirl, but there is not mention of it in the 1976 price list.

However, I do respect LJs opinion in not attributing it to Margaret Casson. I'd still like to know who to give credit to though!
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Frank on June 05, 2006, 08:16:11 PM
But sufficiently badly edited that it easy to see why literate eBayers would misread it. It has a comma in it for one. After the first few sell well, people take notes and  :idea:  a myth.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 05, 2006, 08:25:08 PM
Quote
Swirl was followed by a knobbly-line pattern called Night Sky (1957), inspired by diagrams of stellar formations, which was

But the key is in the words "which was". Singular and refering to the last item: Night Sky. Hard to see how people could have mistaken this. Blinkered with rose-tinted specs at the same time! :)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: robbo on June 05, 2006, 09:26:22 PM
Quote from: "DenCill"
Blinkered with rose-tinted specs at the same time! :)


David,
I agree entirely, including C20th "Roadshow" Experts. I'm sure, if I remember correctly, Margaret Casson was named as designer when they did Chance Swirl :lol:.

Anyway, here's more overlapping gold. A three sectioned rectangular dish (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10019/sectioned.jpg). Here's the edge (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10019/sectioned_edge.jpg). The edge is basically ground flat, with a very slight bevel on the top (but not on the bottom of the edge) that I think is similar to that mentioned by Sue. The swirls are in the right direction and they go the the very edge of the underneath.
Hope this helps.
robbo
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 05, 2006, 09:35:59 PM
Thanks Robbo.

That's definitely a Chance shape and I also have one of these dishes, where the gilt does overlap a smidge. The edge on mine's definitely wayward though – sometimes bevelled, sometimes flat!

So the overlap might not be significant then. I'm rather thankful in a way as I have a perfectly flat cake platter with three applied feet that must be the only item that's not slumped. Trouble is, the swirls are the 'wrong' direction and the spiral arms don't meet the edge. Grief, I wish I could find some consistency... pass the Valium, dear...
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: robbo on June 05, 2006, 09:58:03 PM
I'm sure with something that was in production for that long there is likely to be either unintended "mistakes" or deliberate "tweaks" to the design.
To help you cope, here's a cyber gift (http://www.sixthseal.com/images/diazepam.jpg).
robbo
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on June 06, 2006, 02:26:01 AM
Robbo, thank you for the Jackson extract - that helps a great  deal and explains why we see Swirl attributed to Margaret Casson even though there is no actual evidence for this in the book (or that I can find elsewhere and believe me I've searched!  :roll: )

I'd love to know what her source was for the attribution of Green Leaves and Night Sky - I can believe those are by the same designer as there are stylistic similiarities but to be sure we need primary evidence. More searching needed.  8)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 06, 2006, 07:36:36 AM
:D :D :D

I've rooted around a bit, and found a Calypto rectangular dish, (3.25" x 8.5"). The gilding is very worn, there is no bevelling but there are a couple of patches of gilding overlapping onto the side a little, where there is less wear. Just looks as if a paintbrush went over a bit.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 06, 2006, 07:40:50 AM
I have a few examples like this myself. My original thought was, though, that were it looks deliberate and fairly deep, it only seems to appear on 'Swirl' examples. I have other non-Chance examples where the gilt overlap is quite pronounced (2-3mm), which is my thinking behind this.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 06, 2006, 09:05:07 AM
My Night Sky definitely has overlap :shock: I think the flowers were easier :shock:
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 14, 2006, 11:08:43 PM
As an update, I'm no closer to pinning down the Swirl imitators. So not really an update then :roll:

I even managed to purchase four diamond shaped dishes that I was convinced were Chance, except the gilt overlaps. Tony Cartwright informed me that this shouldn't appear on Fiestaware, but I am finding a few examples: like Christine's Night Sky – any Chance of a close-up piccy, please? :wink:

Not sure what the answer is, but perhaps the lady who did this job — I believe her name was Catherine O'Driscoll (dec.) — was on holiday at the time and some cack-handed apprentice was doing the job! 8)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 16, 2006, 12:46:20 PM
Here's an example by what I mean by overlap. A small amount is probably not significant.

 :shock: click to zoom :shock:
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10058/thumb_swirl-overlap.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2317)

The above example overlaps at the tip by 3mm and down the far edge by 2mm, so is quite pronounced. However, this is not evident on the underside. The ruby Swirl plate is quite worn, but I can note some overlap on this as well, so the overlapping might be a little misleading.

I also note one 'Swirl' dish listed on eBay that has a fluted rim similar to yours Christine, so I might purchase this to see for myself any further oddities that might be apparent.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 17, 2006, 03:31:30 PM
Night Sky overlapping edges. The overlap is on all 7 plates and is 1 to 1.5 mm. Click o enlarge

(http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/th_IMG_0468.jpg) (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/IMG_0468.jpg)(http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/th_IMG_0465.jpg) (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/IMG_0465.jpg)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on June 17, 2006, 10:57:19 PM
Thanks for the excellent photos: yes, I think this pretty much does confirm that overlapping did take place.

The doubts occured because Tony Cartwright is adamant this practice didn't happen, but as he started at Chance in 1959 (Night Sky = 1957) I can only assume it was a practice they changed c.1960 so any earlier Swirl might show this. I'll give him a call and see what he says - he has looked at this debate once before.

The other problem is the reverse Swirl, but if it's a silk-screen printed version then it is possible to reverse the screen. That's my only contribution so far to this problem.

I'm breathing a little easier now! :)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 23, 2006, 01:14:10 PM
More Swirling :shock:  :shock: Two black with gold clockwise Swirls, 12 flutes, 8 inch diameter. Rim gilding overlap on one barely on the other. Gilding looks like that on the Night Sky set. The glass is actually Ruby but the only way you can tell is by holding it up to the light. The swirls also do the one in, one out in the centre. Photo to follow (I'm supposed to be washing today's purchases, then doing some housework :cry: 0
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on July 23, 2006, 01:31:27 PM
Ruby Swirl is an excellent design IMHO :D

I have since discovered that reverse swirls do appear on known Chance items, as do the alternating long-short central radial arms. Max's Ruby Swirl dish, featured on the site, shows reverse swirl as well, but this could be a result of printing on the topside (one of the few occurances of this on Chance items).

The overlapping gilt, though, is a little more controversial as Tony is adamant this didn't happen when he worked there and I assumed this could then only apply to earlier (pre-1960) patterns.

However, I have found some later silk-screen printed patterns (c.1965-on) that show the alternating central hole, so I suppose it all depends when this style was adopted and/or when Ruby Swirl was dropped.

I've actually started a bar-graph timeline to try and assimilate all this data!
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 23, 2006, 01:36:54 PM
But these aren't ruby or anticlockwise. They're black - much, much darker than Max's - and clockwise swirling.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on July 23, 2006, 01:43:52 PM
Sorry, I wasn't comparing like-for-like there, merely pointing out that reverse (anti-clock) swirl is known on Ruby and probably as a consequence of reversing the transfer.

But the darker colour sounds mysterious. I have problems getting ruby to show red on my camera, but it does show well enough when backlit. Do you have another Ruby piece to compare it with Christine?
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 23, 2006, 02:04:43 PM
Black Swirl one with flash, one without. Better photos on request. Click to enlarge
(http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/th_IMG_0527.jpg) (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/IMG_0527.jpg)(http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/th_IMG_0526.jpg) (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/lustrousstone/IMG_0526.jpg)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on July 23, 2006, 03:35:12 PM
I'm inclined to think this is 'normal' Ruby Swirl as they can appear quite dark when not lit from behind, even on a white background. Not easy to tell without another similar dish to compare with though.

Does look to be an extremely nice example though! :)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 23, 2006, 04:34:10 PM
I don't think they were ever intended to look ruby. The colour is so intense that it really does appear black, not a hint of red, unless you hold it up to the window or against a light
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Anne on July 23, 2006, 07:51:50 PM
I've seen examples online that look as dark as Christine's too, but wasn't able to tell if they were poorly photographed ruby or intended to be black. They are much darker than the ones I've seen as ruby, so I think we have to consider these to be a separate colourway until proved otherwise now we've Christine's examples to judge by.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on July 24, 2006, 10:43:15 AM
Ruby Swirl can often look very dark. The reason being is that the ruby 'flashing' might not be consistent and a thicker coating would look dark. I think Max has backlit her plate better and along with a bit of image editing (by me) it will look slightly brighter. It is possible the way it was made, or the type of red glass used, differed for later Ruby Swirl as well.

I have never heard, rumoured, hinted at, of a 'black' Swirl and just think it is not wise or safe to imply there is a 'new' colourway until this dish has been compared with known ruby Swirl. Attached is an early photo I took, completely unedited apart from cropping/resizing.

 :shock: click to zoom :shock:
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10058/thumb_chance-rubyswirl.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2646)
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 24, 2006, 11:54:03 AM
If it's ruby flashed, it would have to have an awful lot of colorant for a thin layer to appear black. (It really looks as black as my Jobling plinth, which is really purple. We know that black glass isn't  black if you can get light to pass through it.) One plate has a couple of tiny edge chips, these too look black. I thought at first that they were where the gilding had worn. And we know that

And you wouldn't be  able to sell a plate as ruby if it only looked ruby when back lit - quality control can't have been that poor, especially as ruby colorants were/are expensive
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on July 24, 2006, 12:20:55 PM
Originally, the ruby glass was left over from making railway and traffic light signal lenses and was just reused glass.

I don't believe it has anything to do with "poor" quality control. Earlier pieces might be darker simply because they were simply remelting these left-over pieces. Later models may have used a different process entirely. Whatever the reason, I only know of a ruby-flashed glass in Swirl.

'Ruby Greco' is also very dark but is known exactly as this.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: William Goodden on October 14, 2006, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: "Anne"
Quote from: "DenCill"
While I think about it: Designer of Swirl?

There is a suspicion that it could have been Robert Goodden, who also designed Spiderweb. As yet unconfirmed.


Found an obituary for Robert Goodden which gives his association dates with Chance Glass which pre-date the date we have for Swirl (1955):
Quote
Also in the early Thirties began Goodden's involvement with the industrial manufacturers Chance Brothers, designing mass-produced pressed domestic glassware, a relationship that continued until 1948.

Source: The Independent 13 April 2002 transcribed here (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020413/ai_n12608155)


Hello there.

I am Robert Goodden's grandson. I have asked my father (Robert's son) about this, and he is almost certain that my grandfather had nothing to do with Swirl. Also there were no examples in his home.

In addition, I asked Robert's daughter, and she doesn't have any information on a possible connection between him and Swirl.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: David E on October 14, 2006, 11:00:19 AM
Hello William,

I noticed your name popped up as a new member and hoped you were related!

Many thanks for clearing this up. The possible connection was published in Andy McConnell's 'Miller's 20th Century Glass' but I really wasn't convinced. While I would like to attribute this pattern correctly I feel this data might be lost forever.

I am aware that your grandfather was quite prolific from about 1930 and has always been credited with Spiderweb (1934) and Lotus (1948), the latter just before he took a full-time post at the RCA, I believe. However, Robert has also been attributed with the Waverley and Britannia designs - see my web site www.chanceglass.net for more details. Again, I am unsure but would welcome any guidance on this matter.

Please feel free to e-mail me privately, if you would prefer.
Title: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: William Goodden on October 14, 2006, 11:07:57 AM
Hello DenCill,

I will pass on your query to my father and aunt.

If there's anything else I may be able to help you with, please ask.
Title: Re: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: bungie60 on May 16, 2011, 05:02:38 AM
Thought you might like to see this scarce variant of Swirl gilt spirals on bronze glass known as Sun swirl all the best Mark
Title: Re: Head in a Swirl, by any Chance?
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 16, 2011, 10:12:46 AM
Note the Fiesta label, so post Chance