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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on September 14, 2011, 09:41:28 AM

Title: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 14, 2011, 09:41:28 AM
Following on from Michelle's thread about early drinking glasses - the attached pics. are some examples showing my 'flower vases' ;) - with the printies/punties - also some rummers, ranging from the largest (marked '1 pint') to more usual sized examples.       I suspect these are all pub glasses - most being rather crude and thick, and of basic shape.    The smaller rummers are sometimes found with a slightly 'crazed' bottom of the inside of the bowl  -  which I now know indicates that they were used for 'hot toddies'  -  the rounghness being caused by using a pestle to grind the sugar in the bottom of the glass (so don't discard those as worthless).    Although most have ground/polished pontil marks the odd one does have a gadget mark, so date wise they are probably nearer the end of the C19.        For whatever reason, it seems that owners names are sometimes indicated (diamond point scratched??) - one of which has been obliterated, almost  -  although the other remains quite clear, but I can't make out what it says.   Maybe when you went to the pub of an evening, you asked for 'your glass' - and they kept it especially for you.??
However, small but important point,.............correctly, the term 'printies/punties' can be applied to cut circles/ovals only  ---    similar shaped decorations produced by means of pressing, are called 'lenses'  -  I say this because some of the pub glasses are indeed pressed examples showing these cirlces and ovals. :)
P.S.   One of the glasses shown is not remotely C19 (not hard to spot really)  - so who will be the winner of this 'Antiques Master' quiz??  :)
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: ju1i3 on September 14, 2011, 09:56:47 AM
Interesting, thank you for posting.

One of your glasses looks like one of mine I was curious about. Would you say that's a gadget mark on the base?
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 14, 2011, 12:30:55 PM
gadget marks, as you probably know, are often 'y' shaped - or perhaps a bit like a 'K'  -  but are not always clear in outline, and I'm not seeing your example very well.  If your glass is without a ground/polished pontil, and you consider it is from that period then your mark is quite possibly a rather deformed gadget mark.   However, not a guarantee.  Try perhaps posting another picture, with the light angled more to the centre of the glass. :)
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: ju1i3 on September 14, 2011, 04:07:11 PM
I've tried to take some clearer pics of the base. I don't know much about gadget marks so I don't know if this is one or not. If it isn't, what is it??

Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Nemmie on September 14, 2011, 05:58:39 PM
Is it the one at the back furthest to the left?
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 14, 2011, 07:32:19 PM
Spot on Nemmie :)  -  I believe it's an FT 33/3 (Goblet)  -  easy, because the glass is so much thinner.       I think the jury is still out on Julie's mark, sorry. :)   What do other people think?
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: ipdglasspolishing on September 14, 2011, 08:27:23 PM
definitely a gadget mark, no other manufacturing method would leave a crease to the base.  :thup:
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Max on September 15, 2011, 06:55:37 AM
Not sure how this particular glass would have been finished off, but usually irregular marks like that are from where cold shears are used to cut the gobbet of glass. Gadget marks are most often C shaped to the best of my knowledge.  You can find the two open parts of the C shape imprinted on the base of glasses sometimes, where the gadget is clamped around the base.
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 15, 2011, 08:31:22 AM
is it possible Max that the mark to which you refer would show on the top of the foot (the slightly open C shape of the tool)............Hajdamach ('British Glass 1800 - 1914) when speaking of wineglasses says of the mark left by a gadget   "The mark left on the underside would resemble a letter 'T' or 'Y'".  :)
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Max on September 15, 2011, 11:23:29 AM
Quote
"The mark left on the underside would resemble a letter 'T' or 'Y'".

That book is still packed up here...is there a photo of what he means?  I've got some Glass Circle articles about gadgets somewhere, I might be able to lay my hands on them.  I'm not sure how you would get a T or Y shape without a photo showing exactly what that means?



Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 15, 2011, 12:30:33 PM
sorry your books are still packed away  -  Hajdamach is too heavy to hold anyway :)...........did you settle near that field you were once discussing?

o.k. then I'll go for it, head on the block time........................the platform of the gadget is that circular part which provides spring loaded pressure to hold the foot of the drinking glass, and is attached to a hollow tube, inside which is a (spring loaded) rod, which when depressed opens the (upper) platform part of the tool, and when released allows the platform to close on the (upper side) of the foot.          Apparently, the platform can be a single or double holding part, and in shape is/are akin to upper case letter 'C'.        Going from illustrations in my book (Wilkinson - so certainly worth buying), the open letter 'C' (the platform) is that part of the gadget that would encase the upper side of the foot of the glass  -  presumably thus leaving a 'C' impression (perhaps feint) on the top side of the foot.       I'm sure Bernard was explaining something about this tool a year or so back, but I've foregotten exacactly when.
This doesn't explain why the 'gadget' should specifically impress a 'Y' or 'T' shaped mark on the underside of the foot - so will someone please explain.

Of course if I've mis-read my book, then I've confused everyone, no doubt  -  only hope I've got this right. :X:

Ref.  'The Hallmarks of Antique Glass'  -   R. Wilkinson  -  1968.
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: oldglassman on September 15, 2011, 02:13:35 PM
HI ,
          From what I have been told and seen in production the T or Y mark seen on glasses that have been held for finishing by a gadjet is actually the mark left after the glass was sheared by scissors from the blowing rod ,with more than 1 cut required from the scissors,hence the T or Y mark,which would have softened when the glass was replaced in the glory hole to fire polish the rim etc ,unlike those with a snapped pontils which went straight into the lehr after breaking off the punty rod.

Cheers ,
            Peter.
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Max on September 15, 2011, 05:07:29 PM
Quote
From what I have been told and seen in production the T or Y mark seen on glasses that have been held for finishing by a gadjet is actually the mark left after the glass was sheared by scissors from the blowing rod ,


That's pretty much the same as I said earlier, that the cutting from shears (or scissors, whatever) can make that irregular pattern in the glass.  

Incidentally (and no doubt you'll all find this VERY useful - not) with the Murano/Chinese clowns that are often sold 'with scorpion marks' (as if that makes them desirable), what they are actually referring to is the same irregular marks from shears/scissors where glass has been cut to form the clown's buttons, the clown's hat and other areas of applied glass.  So 'scorpion marks' are purely from the manufacturing process, they're not there by design.  :sun:



Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on September 15, 2011, 07:08:28 PM
However, the shearing marks are not like a 'C', and as Peter has confirmed, they are 'T' or 'Y' shaped where the scissors may have produced more than one cut, and they are found on the underside of the foot only.       As I understand it from Wilkinson, the 'C' mark would appear, feintly perhaps, on the top side of the foot only, and is the impression from the platform of the gadget.     A little knowledge is dangerous, as I know only too well, and my only experience of glass making is that I once stood on the walkway looking down on what may well have been Frank Thrower, when visiting Dartington - more years ago than I care to remember.       It may well have been that shearing, as opposed to snapping the pontil away from the piece, was carried out solely because it is more economical, and saved having to grind/polish the pontil scar afterwards (used on cheaper material (i.e. pub glasses). 

No one should be buying those clowns anyway - kitsch - garish, and very poor taste ;)

P.S.   I understand that the gadget mark is not seen before 1860
P.P.S.  In addition to ..........snapped pontils  -  ground/polished pontil scars and gadget marks, there is a fourth underside finish to the foot, apparently.    This is the 'swirl' effect, and seems to have been created in some way by a different type of gadget.    In place of a 'T' or 'Y', there is the impression of a spiral in the centre of the foot, and may possibly be the result of twisting the piece away at the foot, but I really am not sure.   Date wise it is more or less contemporary with the 'T' and 'Y'.   (This information comes courtesy of Chris Elwell at Chris Buckman Select Antiques).
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: oldglassman on October 22, 2012, 02:37:35 PM
HI ,
          this  video shows a gadget in use ,T or Y marks would be left if the attached blob used to from the foot was cut by shears , the swirl mark is left if the blob is just trailed off  as seen in the clip .
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQGO3wDesLE&feature=related

cheers ,
             Peter
Title: Re: pub glasses and rummers.
Post by: Paul S. on October 23, 2012, 09:29:42 AM
thanks for posting Peter. :)