Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: flying free on May 13, 2012, 11:56:26 AM
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I thought this might be easy to find a match as it looks quite distinctive, but I've been unsuccessful to date. I have been looking rather randomly as I wouldn't even know which country I thought it might be from.
My pictures make it look a little blurred but in fact it's very crisp and the blue and white has a lovely effect of making them look as though they have been drawn on with an ink pen. It's pretty (well, in my eyes it is :) )
The canes are positioned in a scrambled 'layer' mid way up the weight with clear glass below and above in the dome. It is 2 1/2" wide by 1 5/8" tall and has a polished sort of concave base or very large pontil mark type base with a ring of wear around it, possibly a fine ground ring underneath the wear.
any thoughts much appreciated
Many thanks
m
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Hello,
Your weight, apart from being attractive, really is most interesting and would appear to date from, or near to, the classic mid-nineteenth century era of paperweights.
You may well have noticed the white rose-canes with green sepals that this weight contains; the characteristics of these, together with other canes present, could well provide clues that would help with the attribution of this weight. The only problem there is that I suspect that some of the published attributions for rose-canes have been postulated without sufficient concrete evidence and so may well be misleading.
I'll get out some reference books and try to come up with some further information but perhaps someone who carries such information in their head can come back with some ideas straight away.
Nicholas
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Nicholas, thank you very much, your observations are interesting as my knowledge of paperweights is zero (vases are my addiction).
I have tried to look for various of the canes that are showing but so far I've not been able to match them. However...I did not notice the white rose-canes with green sepals - I was trying to match the blue and white ones and the big plain white ones as they seemed to me the most obvious. I will go and look up rose canes now and see what I can find.
Edited later to add: I am very embarrassed to admit that the 'plain white' canes I was looking for appear to be the 'white rose-canes with green sepals' you refer to - I just somehow didn't notice they all had green in them :-[
Thank you for taking the time to look at my weight, I appreciate it.
m
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Something I did notice that might help, is that there are two white and pink canes (are they called complex canes?), white little circles with a pink surround to each circle forming a cane that looks like a flower, that look as if they are sitting on the top of a side-ways on white striped cane. And on the other side there are two more, very tiny, that are squished into either side of a blue and white cane and sort of sat in the middle of one of those white-rose canes with green sepals. I don't know if this helps, and my apologies for not using better terminology but I really don't know what I am describing unfortunately.
m
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With the information from your reply I have done some more searching.
Would the type of base finish indicate this might be French or are there also other places that finished their weights with a concave polished area and a ground ring?
When I typed in rose cane what came up was Clichy although I presume from your answer there were other makers who used them.
I have found green and white rose canes now that are id'd as Clichy, however I don't think the ones in this weight are the same. Mine do not have a central 'stamen' or middle bit in them. They all seem to just be the white petals with a green exterior on the them. I have also read that Clichy used cobalt blue sparingly and there is a lot of it in this weight.
I have found a Clichy weight that has a couple of canes in which have similarities though. The canes that make up the outer circle of the millefiori are the same as those in two of my millefiori but the central bit is different. I'm presuming that lots of makers used similar ideas so I guess the fact that the central bit is not the same possibly also precludes them?
m
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I think I was mistaken about the rose canes in my weight. There are something like 12 or so rose canes and having looked very closely at them, there seems to be two different kinds - most are plain white with green sepals, but the little pink complex canes I pointed out on the previous message actually seem to be the middles of some of the rose canes. I have now found a good example of one right on the edge which is white with the complex pink centre and also has green sepals. (see top pic below)
It also seems where there are what looked like the twin pink millefiori, it is in fact two rose canes with pink centres sat squished together - there are two sets of these, but one set has another blue and green cane put between it to separate the pink middles.
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses things. I'll add some more close up pictures which may help a bit
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a couple more pics
green tubey type cane with a cobalt blue flower centre ( I have found one similar to this with the green tube surround canes) top picture just to off centre to the right and down.
and a blue tubey type cane with flower centre
m
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I think what has happened with what looks like the 'twin' sets of pink flowers is that the flower cane had been split open lengthways and what would have been the middle pink tubes that formed the complex flower centre have either been curled upwards at each end and into the middle, thereby showing the ends of the group of 5 tubes as two flowers, or have been cut and put in specifically like that (although goodness knows how as it must have been fiddly to do if possible).
These rose canes look like those I have seen identified as Clichy rose canes, however I have found a Baccarat weight, or rather two weights, that have the white tubes with green stars in the middle that form the outer ring of the large millefiori in my weight. The centre of the millefiori in those weights though, differs from the centre of mine. Does anyone know if Clichy used these white with green stars in the middle please?
If I am looking in entirely the wrong area please do let me know.
many thanks
m
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Hi "m",
Sorry for delaying with this response, but I kept getting sidetracked from looking for info about weights like yours. I have now found what I was thinking about ...
2011 Annual Bulletin of the Paperweights Collectors Association, Inc.
Article by Paul Dunlop (pages 5 thru 10) titled "Who Am I? Part 2".
In the article, it is commented that the general attribution of "Bohemian" has been used for many weights of unknown manufacture, but that research has now enabled groupings to be proposed and "European Factory 8" has been used for weights with elements like yours.
There are two overall features that make me think your weight is one of those.
a) the colours and general form of the weight are very much in keeping with one shown as Figure 7 in the article
b) the distinctive central cane of your weight has colours and features that are very close to those shown in canes illustrated in the article as Figures 31, 32 & 33. This is especially true of the particular style of six-point stars set in an outer band of the complex cane.
I have not attempted to compare details of rose canes or other types.
Also, for info, there is a weight with the same style canes illustrated as "concentric 13" in the "Antique Bohemian" section of the PCC's 1999 Christies Exhibition. To locate, click here (http://www.paperweightcollectorscircle.org.uk/) then select "Events" from the menu and "Past exhibitions" from the drop-down list. Then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Index here" next to "1999 Christie's, London". Finally click on the link beneath "Bohemian" in the "Antique" section and then click on the weight "Concentric 13" for a larger image.
In summary, it is clear that the maker of many so-called "Bohemian" weights is still not known but that by building up groups of weights, further research may eventually be able to identify some makers (as has happened for the French makers St Mande and Grenelle).
Until then, your weight has no confirmed maker but is definitely of interest.
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Kev thank you so very much :) I really appreciate you and Nicholas sharing your knowledge so generously. I had found another paper on antique Bohemian weights somewhere on the net, but there were not enough photos for me to find comparison. I would not have found this in a month of Sundays.
The rose canes in the item 'concentric 13' are also the same as those in my weight that have the complex pink centres I believe. The centre star in the middle of the centre cane is also the same as that found in some of canes in my weight - I feel there is little doubt it has come from a similar source, whereas every Clichy or Baccarat I looked at gave me doubts.
I will keep checking to see if there are any developments on identifying sources of the weight now.
Thank you so much.
m
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is it possible this weight was made at Josephinenhutte please? or is there evidence or even any thoughts as to why it could not be from there ?
many thanks
m
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Hi m
If you look through Peter von Brackel's second book (Classic Paperweights from Silesia / Bohemia), Chapter 11 is devoted to a range of paperweights once attributed to Bohemia. Some of these have canes that look very similar to those in your weight. Peter now attributes these weights to one or more unknown French factories, and believes that the 'Bohemian' attribution used in the past was a mistake. I think you can rule out Josephinenhutte - their canes look fairly different.
I wonder whether your weight (and the ones Peter shows) might be from later production at Grenelle, but that is speculation based on no more than the vague similarity of the canes to St Mandé and Grenelle.
Alan
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thank you Alan :)
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I would vote for Grenelle. There was a good article on the factory in last year's PCA Bulletin.
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Thank you - so is the 'Factory 8' classification that Kev talked about, a group that is possibly French then?
And does mine still belong to the Factory 8 group :)
I've come about this in an odd way, as really I'm trying to match the weight to something else :) and clarification of the weight might have helped.
I'm still very interested in time as to what the weight might be but have no intention of selling - I'm just happy to see what comes out eventually :)
Many thanks
m
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I've been having a look around ::) and trying to see if I can match anything in the canes in this weight
I don't have the resources mentioned unfortunately so I'm probably completely off kilter anyway, but
I found this weight on the board (thinking it was Grenelle but happened upon the Clichy closepack weight at the bottom of the post) and there are some elements of some of the canes that are remarkably similar to some in my weight
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45553.msg261638.html#msg261638
Is Clichy completely a no no for mine please?
If so I will abandon that tree and find another to bark up ;D
thanks
m
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Hi. I don't think yours is Clichy - but Clichy, St Mandé and Grenelle are all fairly close to each other in the middle of Paris, so I suspect ideas and influences spread. Charles Bredgen worked at all three, for example.
Alan
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thanks Alan :)
I'll continue to search Grenelle weights for now then
m
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although I think mine is much neater than this, the rose canes have some similarities. It's difficult to see the pink bits in the middle and to see whether they are the same as mine but I'm finding it difficult finding white and green rose canes on anything, and just wondered whether some weights were still classified as St Mande when they might in fact be Grenelle (iyswim?)- is this possibly a Grenelle weight? and do my rose canes look similar to these?
http://www.libertys.com/li5/lib5990.jpg
This is a Grenelle weight with rose canes. I can see the similarity but are they the same?
http://www.world-encheres.com/boisgirard/vo25012010/images/boisgirard_25012010-007.jpg
m
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ref my post above, I'm probably splitting hairs, but I don't think the rose canes on the sulfide weight look exactly like mine, whereas with difficulty I can see that the rose canes I think, look similar to those on this link
http://www.pwts.org.uk/exhib99/Antique/Bohemian/13conc.JPG
I can see that the centre cane on mine with the white surrounds with green hollow star centres look similar to those on the sulfide weight, and on the linked paperweightcollectorscircle weight.
My weight seems to have some different types of rose canes, some with a double centre (two - where perhaps the pink centres have doubled up on themselves which makes them look as though they are double centred), one which seems to have a single pink form of centre, some large white ones with no pink centre and green outers and some small tube green types with only a few white rose petals in the centre (would those still be classed as rose canes?).
m
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Hi m.
One problem with attributions is that different people have different views - so a shop such as Libertys and an auction house like Boisgirard may not agree with each other, or with some collectors! You only have to look at eBay to see just how off the wall some attributions are, and the big auction houses can be badly wrong too. I have seen some strange attributions by Bosigirard and by Bonhams, for example.
As alpha indicated, Philippe Frère wrote the best article on Grenelle, in last year's PCA Bulletin. That included 63 images, mainly of Grenelle pieces. There are no identical cane matches to yours, but the white shard rose is quite similar. Paul Dunlop gave a talk at Wheaton in 2012 where he looked at a whole range of antique European weights, forming 14 different groups, most of which are not yet attributed to factories. The canes in yours match some in weights he referred to as 'Factory 8'. These pieces are not from any of the big 3 factories, and probably not St Mandé.
I think the best guess on yours at the moment is French, factory as yet unidentiifed, possibly Grenelle, possibly not!
Alan
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ok, I'm 'at rest' for now then :)
And thank you for sharing the extra info - I very much appreciate it.
(in my defence I do now have Sibylle Jargstorf's book and have managed to find two of my weights in there, but not the tree :) )
m
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just having a search around and came across this thread on the GMB that appears to have a paperweight with similar canes in to mine.
The roses appear to be the same, as does the cane with stars in.
https://plus.google.com/photos/105319207644601120535/albums/5088161420828978577?banner=pwa
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16293.msg95355.html#msg95355
There appears to be matching rose canes across Hazel's, mine and also the one Hazel linked to in the Christie's 2005 catalogue.
Also I think there is a match between the tubey green canes in mine and the Christie's one (if their colour is distorted), and I think there is a link between Hazel's blue star canes and one in mine and another that links mine to the Christie's one is the blue tubey cane and also the cane that is white with blue flower type stars in it (mine is squished so difficult to tell, but it looks remarkably similar)
I think they are all from the same maker.
I think the rose cane is the link between all four of these weights, the three I've just mentioned including mine and also this one
http://www.pwts.org.uk/exhib99/Antique/Bohemian/13conc.JPG
Making the link to what Alan wrote above then my next question would be, if the article on Grenelle weights included 63 pieces mainly of Grenelle and there were no matches to my weight, then are there any in Paul Dunlop's group of Factory 8( which did have some matches to canes in my weight), that also match to any canes in the Grenelle weights in Philippe Frère's article?
I may be wrong but the roses in all four of the weights I've just discussed are, I believe, a match. Therefore if there are none in an article featuring 63 weights mainly Grenelle, I'm wondering if my weight is not Grenelle at all on balance iyswim?
m
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Hi m.
As with any 'difficult' area of paperweight ID, there will be a number of attributions that have been given in the past (in good faith) that are incorrect. With hindsight one can spot errors in just about every book and many auction house catalogues (including Selman, Bonhams, Christies etc). As we slowly find out more about the past makers, the attributions change - and hopefully become more resilient. In his latest book Peter von Brackel identified a whole range of Bohemian / Silesian paperweights, but concluded that one group that he had previously thought might be Bohemian - with examples very like your paperweight - were from an unknown French factory. So I think the jury is still out...
Alan
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Hi Alan
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I understand, from reading about the Ysart, Vasart, Strathearn, Perthshire lineage, that what you say is correct and that it can be difficult to pin point.
I'm just pleased with myself for finding 2 more that I believe have matches including the rose :)
m
Edited to add:
I was not casting aspersions on the Christie's catalogue nor anyone elses previous id's :) I understand how previous attributions do change when more evidence becomes available. But that shouldn't stop me being able to try and identify my own weights I feel :) I was merely using the weights to demonstrate the matches, rather than focusing on the identification of the weights' makers -
although it may be a little disconcerting if the previous attribution was presented as a firm identification I suppose.
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Hi m.
I would love to know who made these pieces - and several other antique paperweights I own, one with a good rose. I suspect that far more factories than we currently credit made a few paperweights at the height of the classic period, and in various countries. But I live in hope: material that has turned up in the past few years and been made available because of the web has helped tie down some pieces, and I am sure more will follow. Also, technical advances in glass analysis may permit us to group paperweights more accurately.
For example, we now know that a particular style of moulded lion / bee / dog paperweights was made by Baccarat in the 1880s (because we now have the catalogue pages that show them). And the 'Mount Washington' plaque nonsense has been ended, as the Russian attribution is confirmed by the existence of relevant pages from the Maltsov catalogue (not to mention examples of the plaques being on display in the Maltsov museum in Dyatkovo - which they have been for ages, but this seemed to be treated as an inconvenient fact that got in the way of accepted - but wrong - 'wisdom').
I am sure we will find out much more about the origins of currently 'unknown' paperweights - but please don't ask when! ;D
Alan
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well I'm ever hopeful :)
Is there a difference in the pantone (? couldn't think of another way to describe the hue and tone of the colours - not sure if that is the correct phrase to describe glass colours) of the colours used over time periods? I ask because the blue in my weight appears to be the same as the blue in a Bohemian overlay vase I own from c.1850/1860 and both the green and the blue in mine appear to match the same green and blue in a Clichy weight I have.
The blue is particularly difficult to match.
I found a few more that I believe are possibles -
The first is a pic of the Christie's one on Hazel's link showing better colours - weight 316
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491-details.aspx?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5
The other two, I feel also possibly are from the same maker:
This one has a rose with a large clear centre that looks to be the same as one on mine as well as the green tubey cane
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-clichy-type-macedoine-weight-probably-continental-mid-19t-4351550-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4351550&sid=481e054b-df8b-481c-8f02-9b03458bfa2b
Lot 320, has the same spirit and colours but it's difficult to see the detail
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-patterned-blue-ground-millefiori-french-mid-19th-4545497-details.aspx?from=searchresults&pos=73&intObjectID=4545497&sid=a2876434-2366-46d7-bb54-01f47443db1a
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Hi m.
I agree that each link shows one example (amongst the groups of paperweights) that are probably from the same factory (and not Clichy!).
I don't think you can draw much of a conclusion from the shade of blue. The darker blue in just about all antique weights is made using a small amount of cobalt oxide as colourant (it is very strong), and is hardly affected by the glass composition. It will look much the same colour whether it is from France, England, Bohemia - or even Roman times. What can affect the apparent colour is any inherent colouration of the clear glass. The paler blues / turquoises are a different matter: these colours are usually copper based, and much more sensitive to the glass batch. As potters will tell you, you can get brighter, intense colours more easily using lead based glass than soda-lime glass.
Alan
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Thank you for the explanation of the blues.
Yes not Clichy - when I said above
'.... - although it may be a little disconcerting if the previous attribution was presented as a firm identification I suppose.' I didn't mean disconcerting for me, but was trying to be polite, meaning disconcerting for a buyer who bought it firmly id'd as Clichy perhaps :)
But that led me on to searching Christie's database for weights under 'Clichy', to try and find more that were similar to mine - in which I was successful ;D
m
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see my reply above :)
Also for reference adding a picture of a cane I found just now, looking more closely at the weight.
Looking through the thread, I hadn't put a picture of this on before
I'll try and get a clearer pic and amend.
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Hi m,
another voice from Austria: yes indeed, a very fascinating and attractive weight- and the opinions of experts are pinpointing
the problem already. No doubt, by the actual state of knowledge, a French weight, and factory 8 a good working title.
Maybe someone from the St. Mande works made the facscinating roses- they made roses with shards of white glass and very complex canes- but sorry there's not yet a match with an identified St. Mande rose cane to your example.
My first question is always- is it "lead glass"? Antique weights from France, England and the USA are known to be made of this kind of glass. Antique "Bohemians"- there is only one supposed source with lead glass (Egermann).
attached a very small rose cane by St. Mande, this time a micro "collapsed tube" type, kind regards E.
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thanks you also for your help and further information on this -
yes I believe lead glass - it glows under UV light with the same intensity but I think just a teeny fraction bit greener than my Clichy weight, which glows a fraction more to yellow.
I've found a few St Mande weights that vaguely remind me of mine. One with a green and white rose (see link for reference)
http://catalogue.drouot.com/ref-drouot/lot-ventes-aux-encheres-drouot.jsp?id=2599418
I've also come across this one which has many canes in. There's something different about the canes in mine though, the way they are constructed. I probably can't explain it properly, but these look as though the rods that make up each cane were mostly bundles within a clear surround so each cane appears to have lots independent rods if you see what I mean. Whereas with mine quite a few of the canes seem to have the rods bundles within a coloured surround/casing, so they 'appear' differently, more like a stick of rock is what I think I'm trying to say.
http://www.world-encheres.com/boisgirard/vo30052011/images/boisgirard_30052011-024.jpg
m
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Hi m,
another voice from Austria: yes indeed, a very fascinating and attractive weight- and the opinions of experts are pinpointing
the problem already. No doubt, by the actual state of knowledge, a French weight, and factory 8 a good working title.
Maybe someone from the St. Mande works made the facscinating roses- they made roses with shards of white glass and very complex canes- but sorry there's not yet a match with an identified St. Mande rose cane to your example.
My first question is always- is it "lead glass"? Antique weights from France, England and the USA are known to be made of this kind of glass. Antique "Bohemians"- there is only one supposed source with lead glass (Egermann).
attached a very small rose cane by St. Mande, this time a micro "collapsed tube" type, kind regards E.
p.s.:
please have a look at this:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16293.0.html?PHPSESSID=95i5v0pp9nir4j6f7642dsii34
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/bridgesantiques/Paperweights
maybe from the same group?? and surely not Clichy....
kind regards Erhard
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Hi Erhard
Yes I linked to that one on page 3 of this thread :)
here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47540.msg308383.html#msg308383
I found it by accident and it started me off looking again for this weight.
If you go back to that post in this thread I also found two more on the Christie's online search that are possibly from the same maker. I believe I have linked four with the same rose - I'm so curious to know where this was made :)
m
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Polite bump to see if any further knowledge has surfaced regarding the roses in my paperweight please, or perhaps even a possible maker?
Thanks for any help :)
m
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Hi. I think that research by Paul Dunlop (see his PCA Bulletin articles) is pointing towards 'unknown French factory'.
Alan
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Thank you :)
m
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Thanks Alan - btw is there any further evidence of there being more than the four I've found so far that have very close similarities (four apart from the on on the Christie's site that Kev gave me the link to)?
m
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Hi. I have not been keeping records, I am sorry to say, but I have seen a few similar pieces go through auction in the past 5 years. Whether these were all distinct pieces, or maybe repeats, I do not know. A couple were in lesser French provincial auctions. I suspect there are a lot more than four out there!
Alan
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yes me too, I was just wondering where they all were - the more there are to compare, the more chance of someday finding out from whence they came.
m
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Suggest mailing the pics or a link to them to Paul Dunlop. He very recently ID'd a weight of mine as Grenelle and sure he would look at yours as well. Google Paul Dunlop Paperweights and you will find his website and contact link.
Ian
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Lot 21 in this auction - I think the green and white rose canes might be similar to those in my weight?
https://www.theglassgallery.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/021.jpg
https://www.theglassgallery.com/blog/82nd-glass-paperweight-auction-fall-2022/
It was listed as Grenelle or St Mande.
My weight:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102025;image
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102019;image
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The weight looks to be from the same source, but I do not have a lot of confidence in attributions from Selman for the more unusual pieces!
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Thank Alan. I saw that you had one very similar to mine and it was just listed as Antique French.
m
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That should have read 'Thank you Alan.'
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Hi Erhard
Yes I linked to that one on page 3 of this thread :)
here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47540.msg308383.html#msg308383
I found it by accident and it started me off looking again for this weight.
If you go back to that post in this thread I also found two more on the Christie's online search that are possibly from the same maker. I believe I have linked four with the same rose - I'm so curious to know where this was made :)
m
Just keeping track. I think there might now be six - including one on Alan's site as linked above, and the one from the 2022 Selman sale.
They're lovely weights - very exuberant and colourful.
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Not exactly news hot of the press... but in case you did not know, Paul Dunlop illustrated some examples of paperweights in this group in the 2011 PCA Bulletin, in the article 'Who am I? Part 2'.
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Aah I remember reading that earlier. Thank you for the prompt. I still don't have a copy of that bulletin, but I suppose there may be a few more as I don't know if they are different examples to those on this thread.
Not many have surfaced on the net in the last 10 years though.
m
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If this is Grenelle, the rose is I think what mine might look like unsquashed?
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
Mine showing the pink inner circles in the rose?
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102019;image
The green tubular canes are also in mine.
Another here as well also listed as Grenelle:
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
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Alan, re Grenelle - and Charles Bredgen, the only reference I came across was one from 1855 where a C Biedgen fils, Cristallerie de Grenelle was mentioned. Is this a typo in the original document 'Annuaire General du Commerce et de l'industrie ...'?
See page 1967, last line of middle column and top line of column second from right:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Annuaire_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_du_commerce_et_de_l_i/n2ZCAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=presse+papiers+grenelle&pg=PA1967&printsec=frontcover
Difficult - another link shows it as 'Bredgem' with an M on the end. How annoying.
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Hi
There have been various articles / talks / bits of research into Charles Bredgen (there are several spellings of his name) over the years, and I need to refresh my memory as to quite what the present understanding (or lack thereof...) might be. There is also an argument to be made that Grenelle did not exist as factory, but only as a retail outlet (Don French presented a case for that in a talk at a PCC meeting a couple of years ago). If you can email me, I can send you some relevant images / pdfs.
Alan
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Interesting. The link I gave has the listing as :
'Cristaux (fabric. de):
Biedgen (C.) fils, CRISTALLERIE DE GRENELLE, artistes de fantaisie, presee-papiers et tout genre ...' etc.
I'm unsure whether the (fabric. de) indicates they were makers of or purveyors of as there is another name listed underneath with a similar description.
They are still appearing in 1859 directory but as Bredgem C. - see page 1266
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Annuaire_almanach_du_commerce_de_l_indus/bdeT1Xx4ZSwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cristallerie+grenelle&pg=RA8-PP2&printsec=frontcover
And a description here on page 119 of a visit in the 1870s(?) to 'la cristallerie de Grenelle pour la fabrication du verre;'
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Bulletin_de_la_Soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9_Franklin/h-4k1jEw_kAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cristallerie+grenelle&pg=PA75&printsec=frontcover
This is 1857 - also mentioned Grenelle and Bercy although I thought Bercy was gone by then: (see column 702)
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Troisi%C3%A8me_et_derni%C3%A8re_Encyclop%C3%A9die_th/GdcqAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cristallerie+grenelle&pg=PA701&printsec=frontcover
Thank you Alan. I will do.
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There is no mention in the 1867 exhibition catalogue of either Grenelle or Saint Mande - see pages 18, 19 and 20 for list:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Catalogue_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral/R58yBzQoKBYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=cristallerie+grenelle&pg=RA3-PA18&printsec=frontcover
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I think I was mistaken about the rose canes in my weight. There are something like 12 or so rose canes and having looked very closely at them, there seems to be two different kinds - most are plain white with green sepals, but the little pink complex canes I pointed out on the previous message actually seem to be the middles of some of the rose canes. I have now found a good example of one right on the edge which is white with the complex pink centre and also has green sepals. (see top pic below)
It also seems where there are what looked like the twin pink millefiori, it is in fact two rose canes with pink centres sat squished together - there are two sets of these, but one set has another blue and green cane put between it to separate the pink middles.
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses things. I'll add some more close up pictures which may help a bit
Just requoting this as I'm pretty sure the rose canes in the paperweight I linked to above (will edit to add reference) , which is listed as Grenelle on the Boisgirard-Antonini site are the same as those in my paperweight:
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
Mine here for comparison:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102019;image
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...
Another here as well also listed as Grenelle:
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
The rose looks to be the same as in mine and there is a distinct similarity in the canes with cobalt blue outers - the colours of the inners and design looks to be remarkably similar to one in mine but the colours are transposed.
See cane at 9 o'clock in mine on this photograph:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102025;image
Better photo of the cane in mine here at 12:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47540.0;attach=102077;image
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There is some potentially interesting information here in Pressglas Korrespondenz Seite 12 right hand column. A reference to a donation of glass from a Nocus and Bredghem
'and in
1843 Nocus and Bredghem of the Saint-Mandé
glassworks'
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2017-2w-sg-pw-ader-saint-mande-1840.pdf
The Bredghem possibly being the C. Bredgen/Bredgem/Biedgen ? but a reference to Saint-Mande glassworks.
And there is more information on Saint-Mande in the following pages.
I guess what's missing is definitive information on the Grenelle manufactory? Was it a manufactory or a purveyor of glass?
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Jargsdorf says Saint-Mande survived until 1848.
m
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There is some potentially interesting information here in Pressglas Korrespondenz Seite 12 right hand column. A reference to a donation of glass from a Nocus and Bredghem
'and in
1843 Nocus and Bredghem of the Saint-Mandé
glassworks'
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2017-2w-sg-pw-ader-saint-mande-1840.pdf
The Bredghem possibly being the C. Bredgen/Bredgem/Biedgen ? but a reference to Saint-Mande glassworks.
And there is more information on Saint-Mande in the following pages.
I guess what's missing is definitive information on the Grenelle manufactory? Was it a manufactory or a purveyor of glass?
Link here to the evidence of that donation from Saint-Mande and Nocus and Bredghem:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Description_methodique_du_musee_ceramiqu/Z0BJAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bredghem+nocus+villete&pg=PA383&printsec=frontcover
See page 383
Description Methodique du Musee Ceramique de la manufacture Royale de porcelaine de Sevres dated 1845
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On page 29 of Curiosities of Glass-making(1849), Apsley Pellat discusses incrustations. He says 'about 40 years since' and talks about Bohemian attempts to incrust glass which were mostly not successful from how I understood what he wrote.
He then goes on to talk about the idea being taken up by the French manufacturers who succeeded in incrusting several medallions of 'Buonaparte'. Says it technique was very expensive and on the point of being abandoned when it was 'fortunately taken up by a French gentleman, Monsieur de St. Amans'. Do we know who Monsieur 'de St. Amans' was? It just seems remarkably similar to Saint-Mande but appreciate this could be a big coincidence.
m
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Talking of Bonaparte. It occurred to me that this group of (closely aligned to my eye, seemingly by the same hand/maker) specifically coloured weights have a political message or a political leaning from the maker. They appear to be red white and green (Italian flag colours) mixed with red white and blue (French flag colours).
Not that the thought helps with identifying the maker as perhaps they just reflected governmental colours of the time or something?
m
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I think I have 10 in total so far that could be linked. I can't show links to them all but descriptors here:
- There are 5 including mine that I think could be by the same hand possibly? can't explain why but they look thoughtfully placed somehow:
So that is mine (pic attached below of mine from top but lighting bad so colours look dull), plus
PWTs scramble with central large cane - link to rose cane and other canes
https://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale%2010/7203m.jpg,
Christie’s Concentric - Link to three canes – no 316
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491/?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5
Boisgirard - Link to rose and green tubey canes
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
Boisgirard – Link to complex canes (transposed colours) and rose canes
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
- There are 4 more which have more red in them and are scrambles and have a link via I think at least the white rose canes with green sepals but no centre and possibly some have the rose canes with 6 pink squashed tube centres, but they don't have the same kind of careful placement as those 5 above it seems to me:
Selman red https://www.theglassgallery.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/021.jpg
Christies scramble
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-clichy-type-macedoine-weight-probably-continental-mid-19t-4351550/?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4351550&sid=481e054b-df8b-481c-8f02-9b03458bfa2
Plus possibly two more which I can't show.
- There is one more which is similar in spirit and colour but again, not carefully placed, is a scramble but no centre cane and the canes appear to be simpler to my eye but it's difficult to compare on this one:
See number 320
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-patterned-blue-ground-millefiori-french-mid-19th-4545497/?from=searchresults&pos=73&intObjectID=4545497&sid=a2876434-2366-46d7-bb54-01f47443db1a
m
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The man who bought the patent from Apsley Pellat was Honoré Boudon de Saint-Amans - he is well documented. The similarity of name to St Mande is just coincidence.
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Thank you for clarifying that Alan. Much appreciated.
There are similarities in the design of the 4 large canes with circles of stars around the centre cane in this weight. Love the colours. Not the same as the ones on my weight but very similar to the 4 different types in my weight:
https://scottishantiques.com/paperweights/American-European/Rare-Early-Silesian-Bohemian-Paperweight
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close up of a couple in mine for comparison
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- re the green tubes cane. There are two where it's possible to just about see the detail. They aren't just green tube canes, the green tubes surround and have a centre of, a blue flower.
At first I thought this was just another cane part but the other one doesn't have a cane like that near it and it's just possible to see a half ish of the blue flower poking out.
- On the Christie's Concentric - it was sold in 2005 as a Clichy. It's tiny compared to my weight:
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4545489
Quote from Sale:
'DETAILS
A Clichy miniature close millefiori weight
MID 19TH CENTURY
The canes predominantly in shades of green, white and blue, enclosing a white rose and a pink rose (slight chip)
1 5/8 in. (4.1 cm.) diam.'
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There is one tube cane in my weight. It appears fairly plain in design compared to the stars canes, star circled canes and the roses.
It has a green interior, cased in white, cased in red and then cased in blue.
This pic should show it and also the other squashed green tubey cane with the blue and white flower centre:
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is this a star link at all?
The white 6 point star in my weight in the centre of a cane, appears in the various guises in the Clichy Concentric (Christie's)
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4545489
(Cane at 1 o clock in this picture - weight 316 which I believe is the same cane the blue one with stars seen in the Boisgirard weight below)
and also appears in the Boisgirard Grenelle weight with the salmony coloured canes (the big blue canes have an outer circle of green stars, then two inner circles of blue stars then a central white star I think the same cane as that in the Christies' weight above)
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
and also appears here in the Clichy vase in the Corning (very difficult to find - it's half way between left hand side of vase and the Clichy name cane and down a bit - it's 6 white 6 point stars surrounding what seems to be perhaps a small white rose cane?):
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/millefiori-vase-1
They also appear on as white stars against a green background in a cane on these vases:
https://www.rubylane.com/item/161143-A4436/Ex78traordinary-Offering-Museum-Quality-Antique-Clichy
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There are only 4 I can find that can definitely be linked via cane matches:
1) - Mine
2) PWTs scramble with central large cane - link to rose cane and other canes
https://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale%2010/7203m.jpg,
3) Christie’s Concentric - Link to three canes – no 316
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491/?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5
4) Boisgirard – Link to complex canes and rose canes (the one with the orange cane outer surround)
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
There are 4 more which have more red in them and are scrambles and have a link via I think at least the white rose canes with green sepals but no centre and possibly some have the rose canes with 6 pink squashed tube centres, but they don't have the same kind of careful placement as those 5 above it seems to me:
5) Selman red https://www.theglassgallery.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/021.jpg
6) Christies scramble
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-clichy-type-macedoine-weight-probably-continental-mid-19t-4351550/?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4351550&sid=481e054b-df8b-481c-8f02-9b03458bfa2
7) and 8 ) Plus possibly two more in a book which I can't show.
There is one more that may have similar rose canes and contains green tubey cane groups
Boisgirard - Link to rose and green tubey canes
9) https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
There is one more which is similar in spirit and colour but again, not carefully placed, is a scramble but no centre cane and the canes appear to be simpler to my eye but it's difficult to compare on this one:
See number 320
10) https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-patterned-blue-ground-millefiori-french-mid-19th-4545497/?from=searchresults&pos=73&intObjectID=4545497&sid=a2876434-2366-46d7-bb54-01f47443db1a
m
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There are only 4 I can find that can definitely be linked via cane matches:
1) - Mine
2) PWTs scramble with central large cane - link to rose cane and other canes
https://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale%2010/7203m.jpg,
3) Christie’s Concentric - Link to three canes – no 316
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491/?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5
4) Boisgirard – Link to complex canes and rose canes (the one with the orange cane outer surround)
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/
There are 4 more which have more red in them and are scrambles and have a link via I think at least the white rose canes with green sepals but no centre and possibly some have the rose canes with 6 pink squashed tube centres, but they don't have the same kind of careful placement as those 5 above it seems to me:
5) Selman red https://www.theglassgallery.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/021.jpg
6) Christies scramble
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-clichy-type-macedoine-weight-probably-continental-mid-19t-4351550/?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4351550&sid=481e054b-df8b-481c-8f02-9b03458bfa2
7) and 8 ) Plus possibly two more in a book which I can't show.
There is one more which is similar in spirit and colour but again, not carefully placed, is a scramble but no centre cane and the canes appear to be simpler to my eye but it's difficult to compare on this one:
See number 320
10) https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-a-patterned-blue-ground-millefiori-french-mid-19th-4545497/?from=searchresults&pos=73&intObjectID=4545497&sid=a2876434-2366-46d7-bb54-01f47443db1a
m
Re the following:
5) 6) 7) and 8 )
I have looked at these red scrambles again and I can't see a link between them and the First 1- 4 above. I think the roses are different
9) There is one more that may have similar rose canes and contains green tubey cane groups however I am not entirely certain the inner centres would squash to a rectangular shape if squashed so I cannot be sure this is a link
Boisgirard - Link to rose and green tubey canes
9) https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
This brown and white one has a similarity in the inner 3 circles of stars in terms of number of stars per circle:
https://scottishantiques.com/paperweights/American-European/Rare-Early-Silesian-Bohemian-Paperweight
There also may be the right colour green in the frit in the base as there seems to be a mossy colour green and also a bluer grass green. The green in the First 1-4 which are linked by canes is a grass green.
So in summary I think there are only 4 that can definitely be linked.
m
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Alan, re Grenelle - and Charles Bredgen, the only reference I came across was one from 1855 where a C Biedgen fils, Cristallerie de Grenelle was mentioned. Is this a typo in the original document 'Annuaire General du Commerce et de l'industrie ...'?
See page 1967, last line of middle column and top line of column second from right:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Annuaire_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_du_commerce_et_de_l_i/n2ZCAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=presse+papiers+grenelle&pg=PA1967&printsec=frontcover
Difficult - another link shows it as 'Bredgem' with an M on the end. How annoying.
I've also noticed that in the above listing right under the listing of Biedgen (C.) there is
'CARON (V.) filigrane, torsine et crist.de coul.'
No address is given. Could it be that at the same premises as Biedgen C ( Bredgem / Bredgen / Bredghem ) there was a part of the premises selling filigrana and twists etc.?
There is no mention of millefiori or murrine.
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The paperweight with the pale orange outer canes sold by Boisgirard as Grenelle in 2021, that has cane links to the other three in what I think is a set including mine, was previouly sold in 2015 by Boisgirard as Clichy (Clichy Appert?):
See page 21 and 22 here
https://cdn.drouot.com/d/catalogue?path=boisgirard/16092015/Boisgirard_16092015_bd.pdf
but also here:
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de-bonbons-tricolores-le-second-de-bonbons-bleus-blancs-et-verts-a-etoiles-bleues-et-vertes-autour-dune-rose-centrale-blanche-et/
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Re the following:
5) 6) 7) and 8 )
I have looked at these red scrambles again and I can't see a link between them and the First 1- 4 above. I think the roses are different
9) There is one more that may have similar rose canes and contains green tubey cane groups however I am not entirely certain the inner centres would squash to a rectangular shape if squashed so I cannot be sure this is a link
Boisgirard - Link to rose and green tubey canes
9) https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-panier-millefiori-compose-de-trois-cercles-c-3/
This brown and white one has a similarity in the inner 3 circles of stars in terms of number of stars per circle:
https://scottishantiques.com/paperweights/American-European/Rare-Early-Silesian-Bohemian-Paperweight
There also may be the right colour green in the frit in the base as there seems to be a mossy colour green and also a bluer grass green. The green in the First 1-4 which are linked by canes is a grass green.
So in summary I think there are only 4 that can definitely be linked.
m
Bonhams sold another two with red roses/red in them that are different to the 4 with lots of red I've seen as discussed above, so that makes 6 of the ones with red roses/heavy on red canes in total. It's easy to see the rose in this link to the Bonhams 2 and I don't think it's the same as the roses in my weight, so that also supports my comment above, i.e. taking them out of the comparison with the group of 4 weights including mine:
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/26834/lot/261/three-clichy-scrambled-millefiori-miniature-paperweights-and-two-french-scrambled-weights-circa-1850/
Therefore my summary of weights with links to mine remains as quoted - I can only see 4 which are linked by cane matches including mine, in this group:
1) - Mine
2) PWTs scramble with central large cane - link to rose cane and other canes
https://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale%2010/7203m.jpg,
3) Christie’s Concentric - Link to three canes – no 316
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491/?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5
4) Boisgirard – Link to complex canes and rose canes (the one with the orange cane outer surround)
https://www.boisgirard-antonini.com/lot/grenelle-presse-papiers-a-motif-de-deux-cercles-concentriques-lun-compose-de/