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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Gary on August 30, 2012, 12:09:59 PM
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A superb and unique piece of Monart glass sold at Bonhams Scottish sale yesterday. The images on Bonhams (link below) enlarge really well, showing excellent detail.
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19868/lot/61/?page_anchor=MR1_page_lots%3D7%26r1%3D10%26m1%3D1
Gary
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Weird!
I don't like the "piping" on it at all - what do the numbers mean, do you know?
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It is the date (9/3/27) either when is was made or presented, to whom commissioned or received as a gift. It was not a normal production piece.
Gary
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Doh, I couldn't make sense of 9327 with nothing inbetween... :-[
I can see it's not normal production piece.... I don't think it would have been popular. The colourway is lovely, the shape and the piping, on the other hand..... :-X
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sorry but i think it disgusting, :(, i also dont even think that it is Monart, maybe it is but doesnt look like Monart to me, just something not right about it, the adventurine ect doesnt look like Monart but thats just my tuppence worth, i seen it a month back and alarm bells were ringing
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;D
Perhaps Jesus Brasso had a hand in it?
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;D
Perhaps Jesus Brasso had a hand in it?
more like steevie wonder
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Nothing to do with Jesus Braso as he did not come over to Scotland until the 1930s. Salvador and J Braso have used that type or piping on other pieces J Braso on his baskets and Salvador used it on special commissioned piece (Ysart Glass page 15).
Gary
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It might well be a real Monart, but certainly do not like the piping. Glad that wasn't my 695.00
Carolyn
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it may just be myself but something isnt right about this piece (in my eyes), colourway , adventurine and them handles, even though their handled pieces werent done very good at all, alarm bells ring saying that this piece is not near as old as it makes out, but hey what do i know, theres plenty Ysart glass experts out there nowadays so will wait and see ,
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Thanks for the info, Gary, :) I didn't know the dates - just thought the handles and piping looked as if JB might have been involved.
Also, thanks for posting it. 8) Gets discussion going, which is always good!
Having peered at the construction of the colours in the body, I think I'm starting to agree with t'other Gary - that it's just not right at all..... strange.
I'll ask my brother what he thinks about it and report back!
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Thanks for the info, Gary, :) I didn't know the dates - just thought the handles and piping looked as if JB might have been involved.
Also, thanks for posting it. 8) Gets discussion going, which is always good!
Having peered at the construction of the colours in the body, I think I'm starting to agree with t'other Gary - that it's just not right at all..... strange.
I'll ask my brother what he thinks about it and report back!
JB?? sue, you mean JD no?
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Jesus Brasso = JB.
Not coming to Scotland until 1930. ;D
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Jesus Brasso = JB.
Not coming to Scotland until 1930. ;D
lol awwwww duh what a doughball i am lol
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Hmm, looks like someone wanted a glass trophy as opposed to silver/plate, or chrome. If so that might mean it is traceable, since we have the date.
As for all the flummery (including the handle), it's horrible - but if you remove it you're left very much with a Monart shape.
Nigel
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I agree Nigel, but have you really enlarged the images to look at how the colours are worked?
They don't look quite right to me - but you've seen and fondled a lot more than I have!
If somebody wanted a trophy, why would "Ysart" be the name piped onto it?
Unless of course, it was for somebody in the family.
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......maybe I should have actually looked at the second image!!!!!!!! :o
Doh ???
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well am sticking to my guns on this one, doesnt look right to me , i still think its not as old as its made out to be, im sticking with adventurine doesnt look like ysarts to me, handles and their colour doesnt look right, something not right about this piece , alarm bells still ringing loudly , ::)
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The following images are reproduced by kind permission of Bonhams Auction House Edinburgh.
Monart shapes H and Q have piping on them.
The link below shows an example of Monart shape C with piping.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-monart-pumice-vase-2087949-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=2087949&sid=78ccdb3b-fcab-4790-949d-d0b846b06b49
Jesus Braso started to work for J Moncrieff Glassworks 28/12/39, this information comes from the archives held at A.K. Bell library Perth (Company Records).
Gary
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More pics
Gary
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Thanks for the extra images, Gary.
T'other Gary, I think Nigel and I are with you on this one.
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What happened to the Monart glass factory in 1927? The only reference I could find on a quick look was it seemed to be that was when the gas supply was changed. Or maybe it commemorates one of their birthdays?
m
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sorry but i think it disgusting, :(, i also dont even think that it is Monart, maybe it is but doesnt look like Monart to me, just something not right about it, the adventurine ect doesnt look like Monart but thats just my tuppence worth, i seen it a month back and alarm bells were ringing
Gary when you saw it a month ago did you handle it or get any provenance on the piece.
Gary
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Gary when you saw it a month ago did you handle it or get any provenance on the piece.
Gary
sorry i never made myself clear, i meant i saw this piece on line when it first came on,
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The image below is from Moncrieff Glassworks company records, it shows Salvador's, Paul and Augustine personal signatures.
I do not claim to be an expert on calligraphy, but there is to my eyes there is a clear likeness between Salvador's signature and the Ysart piping on the vase.
The similarity that I see
1/ the way the "Y" loops at the top and bottom of the "Y"
2/ The space between "s" and "a"
3/ The "r" and "t" look very similar.
This no way confirms it as Salvador signature as it would take someone with knowledge of calligraphy to work that out.
I have emailed Bonhams asking if they can pass on any provenance the have on the piece.
Gary
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Well Gary, I take on board your caveats, but agree with your observations. Nice piece of work :) :)
Nigel
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I'd say there is a definite similarity.
I also think the apparent 'Y' of Salvador and Paul's signature looks to me like an old fashioned cursive capital I :-\
m
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I'd say there is a definite similarity.
I also think the apparent 'Y' of Salvador and Paul's signature looks to me like an old fashioned cursive capital I :-\
m
That is a very interesting point you make about the capital I as the name and spelling of Ysart was adopted when the came to Scotland. Their correct Spanish name was Isart.
Gary
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http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/ig/old_handwriting/Kurrent.htm
I believe it is the old way of writing a capital I (see above).
Having now found the chronology on Ysart Glass, Paul would have been 11 and Salvador obviously adult when they came here... therefore presumably Paul's use of his name Isart and way of writing it was already established, whereas Augustin was only 8 when they came here so may have easily adopted the new spelling, hence the way they are written in the documentation you show. With regard the cup I also think it's spelt with a capital I on the cup as well. Given they were known as 'Y'sart, presumably there are only two people who would have made that cup and spelt it that way with an 'I', i.e. Salvador or Paul? and as you point out there are also other obvious similarities with Salvador's signature.
m
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http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/ig/old_handwriting/Kurrent.htm
I believe it is the old way of writing a capital I (see above).
Having now found the chronology on Ysart Glass, Paul would have been 11 and Salvador obviously adult when they came here... therefore presumably Paul's use of his name Isart and way of writing it was already established, whereas Augustin was only 8 when they came here so may have easily adopted the new spelling, hence the way they are written in the documentation you show. With regard the cup I also think it's spelt with a capital I on the cup as well. Given they were known as 'Y'sart, presumably there are only two people who would have made that cup and spelt it that way with an 'I', i.e. Salvador or Paul? and as you point out there are also other obvious similarities with Salvador's signature.
m
Totally agree with your observations, when I was at the library I only had my camera phone and only took 5 photos of the ledger, one of the other images is of Vincent signature and is surname is a definite Y. I do intend to return to do some more research and will check how Antoine spelt his surname.
Gary
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Below is an image of Vincent Ysart signature from the Moncrieff's employees ledger. This shows he spelt his surname with a Y.
Gary
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Below is the email I received from
Miss Katherine Wright
Specialist
Ceramics and Glass
Design from 1860
Bonhams
re the provenance of the vase.
"Thank you for sending the link. Having seen the piece in person I feel is certainly Monart. It came from a lady who inherited the vase from her father, who was an antiques dealer in Perth.
Katherine "
All the hard evidence is pointing towards the vase being Monart.
This is only one of many possibilities, Salvador was friendly with a Jack Henderson antique silver and jeweller from Perth, who we know was given a one off decanter (see link) by Salvador.
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/YsartSpecial.htm
Gary
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Below is an image of Antoine Ysart signature from the Moncrieff's employees ledger. This shows he spelt his surname with a Y.
I spoke to the grandson (who still runs the family business) of Jack Henderson and he confirmed his family never owned the piece.
Gary
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Gary, I know nothing about Monart at all, but I've been musing on why this piece would be signed and dated. It's a small piece as far as I can make out. So if say Salvador made it for someone in 1927, why would it be signed Isart? were Monart glass not well established as Monart by then? So I was wondering did he make it as a personal gift for someone with the date for them on the front, but then as a 'signature' signed it Isart on the reverse..it's not a huge piece so the 'signature' would not have been huge really would it? I wonder if it was because using glass was the only way of signing it, i.e they didn't have a way of acid etching or diamond marking the signature?
As I say, just wondering out loud about why :0
m
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It is the date (9/3/27) either when is was made or presented, to whom commissioned or received as a gift. It was not a normal production piece.
Gary
I did mention earlier in the thread that possibility and I believe it was not a piece that Moncreiff's sold, as their own thru the usual outlets for Monart Glass.
It is generally accepted if a piece was made by the Ysarts and in the Monart style at Moncrieff Glassworks then it is classed as Monart
You are right it is only 16cm high and the writting on it is fairly small. Moncrieff's did have the facility of acid etching, I can only presume they had some sort of engraver.
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I've PM'd you Gary.
Nigel