Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on September 05, 2014, 04:12:14 PM
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massive amounts of limescale which fortunately now removed, but problem remains as to meaning of mark.
Probably an underplate of some description, and plenty of wear caused by what may have been jardiniere/flower pot etc.
The oval in relief says REGISTER'D 30TH APRIL 1864 with No. 4631 in the centre. About 7" in diameter.
Neither correspond with each other so mystery - although I'd assumed it was a Board of Trade Registration.
Perhaps it's just a modern piece given a meaningless mark to make it look old, and it certainly achieves that.
Looking for ideas if anyone can help please. thanks :)
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Should be 1884, perhaps a mis-stamping :)
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that had occurred to me already - but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work :)
By the time you get to 30th April 1884 the Rd. Nos. are in the region of 5849 - so way past my No.
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An American mark?
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looking in Ivo's booklet, the answer appears to be no (page 43). For 1864 the Rd. Nos. are in the range 1879 to 2017.
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?? http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/regnos01.htm
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thanks Frank, but my last post referred to States Rd. Nos. as shown in Ivo's book, and as you can see from the Great Glass details, 4631 wouldn't correspond to 30th April in the British series. :)
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Butter dish! http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14036520 8)
Reference: BT 45/24/4631
Description:
Useful Registered Design Number: 4631.
Proprietor: Thomas George Webb.
Address: Manchester Glass Works, Manchester, Lancashire.
Subject: Butter dish.
Category: Earthenware, China, Pottery, Kilns, Glazing.
Date: 1864 April 30
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
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now who's a clever lady - you're not a Dame for nothing Anne :-* Why didn't ordinary mortals like me think of the possibility of an Earthenware (CLASS IV) design.
Not being a collector of ceramics, I know little or nothing about U.K. Class IV during the period in question.
As most people know, the British Board of Trade separated entirely the various materials - glass, wood, ceramics etc. etc. into material specific groups during the period 1842 to 1884, and as can be seen from my comments above that since this Rd. No. refused to correspond to the date shown, I'd assumed therefore that probably it wasn't a U.K. Registration... shows how wrong you can be. :)
Since we can't see this design on the pc screen, it'll need a visit to Kew to determine whether or not this dish represents the entire item being Registered, or whether there was perhaps a lid/top, as was the case usually in the C20 for butter dishes. It might have been the case that in 1864 butter was put out onto the table fresh for each meal, and they didn't see the need for a lid.
Do people know if all earthenware Registrations - during this period - were marked with an oval as shown on this dish, instead of the lozenge (as in the case of glass - CLASS III)?
Again, sincere thanks for your sleuthing Anne - and I will comment further here after I've been to Kew and photographed the original image for this design. :)
P.S. meant to request please that item is now removed to British.
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Wow - looks like you found a previously unknown Molineaux Webb registration. To me it looks most like the butter number 74 (and similar 73). Number 76 was the raised dots pattern and 78 the Greek Key, both August 1864, so with sequential numbering, just prior to that would match.
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It was a bit of lateral thinking that brought the result, Paul. :)
The butter dish is in the Useful (as opposed to Ornamental) designs classification. I had a read of the Nat.Arch. helpfile to see what it says about them...
Registers and representations under the 1843 Act 1843-1884
... record series BT 45 and BT 46.
These are the designs submitted to the Patents, Designs and Trade Marks Office under the terms of the Non-ornamental ('Useful') Designs Act 1843. Representations by classification ‘useful’, design range 1-6740.
The registers are divided into three parts: a register of the items by design number, an index to proprietors’ names in BT 46/5-7 and an alphabetical index to subjects in BT 46/9.
01/09/1843 30/06/1884 1-6740 Non-Ornamental (Useful) Designs
Representations: BT 45/1-30
Registers: BT 46/1-4
Index to Proprietors' Names: BT 46/5-7 (7 (8
01/09/1843 12/04/1883- Alphabetic Index to Subjects
BT 46/9 (8
Diamond marks were used on all material classes, i.e.
I Metal
II Wood
III Glass
IV Ceramic
V Wallpaper
VI Carpets
VII-XIII Textiles of various kinds, including dress and furnishing fabrics
But that doesn't help explain why yours is an oval one!
Neil: If you go to the Nat. Arch. website and into the Discovery catalogue search box put:
"Useful Registered Design Number" glass
and select 1800-1899 as the date range, it brings up 74 registrations, which include two for Manchester Glass - 4631 (as above) and 4632 (another butter dish.) Hope this helps. :)
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thanks for your poking around Anne - perhaps mine was the prototype, and didn't get as far as a lozenge. ;)
So would appear nothing to do with MW then Neil, and in view of other designs for similar objects, it probably did have a cover/lid, although I don't think I missed seeing it when I bought the base, but will go back just in case.
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Am I missing something? Thomas George Webb was running Molineaux and Webb in 1864, aka The Manchester (Flint) Glass Works.
It looks to me like the two numbers 4631 and 4632 correspond to butter dishes 74 and 73 in the Molineaux Webb pressed glass catalogue.
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nope - obviously my misunderstanding re the names :)
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I have had one of these for a number of years (just the base), wondered about the shape and couldn't find the manufacturer.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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pity we don't each have the opposite corresponding half - at least we could make up one whole butter dish :)
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We were mentioning butters number 73 and 74 from the Molineaux Webb catalogue earlier in the thread - today I've turned up an example of pattern 72, which is a three piece butter dish. Not photographed it yet, but here's the image from the catalogue. So it looks like 72 went unregistered, and I presume 73 and 74 were registrations 4631 and 4632
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Here you go... pattern number 72 dating to 1864
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And here's my 73 with the same style of unusual registration mark as the piece in the original post:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,23648.msg132069.html#msg132069
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Continuing in the vein of M.W. butter containers, here are some National Archive pix of dishes/parts of dishes, that at first I thought I'd be able to link to the factory patterns which have appeared earlier in this thread, but I have failed ............... probably because they're later than those discussed here, or I'm up against non-Registered items. Having gone to the trouble of watermarking, I hope they are of some interest - slightly confusing as two separate Nos. appear to show identical design/decoration ???
Whatever, perhaps if Neil has the time he might cast an eye over these images and let us know if they are related or not. thanks.
I think there's five, so one will flip over to the next post. Of course, these images may already be on the Board's archive - if so apologies for doubling up.
tomorrow I will post a couple of M.W. 'marmalade dishes, from 1866, that at a quick glance might have been thought to be for butter, but the factory caption says marmalade.
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the final 'butter' related item - Reg. No. 228202 from 1869.
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Yes they're all in the catalogue - later frosted pieces from 1865 to 1869. I have an example of the raised dots 1865 butter and it's a bit more roughly made than the fan shape pattern 72 from 1864. I've also seen the squared shape frosted bands 1869 butter. The only one which has yet to turn up is the frosted lid reg 190758
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thanks Neil.
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also meant to say, and still continuing the butter theme, I've copies of TNA drawings of Derbyshire Regs. 180699 and 206304 .........PYV Regs. 189121/22 - and the MW marmalades I mentioned yesterday. I can add these if they're drawings of interest or that you've not seen previously - you might let me know some time please.
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I've got all the Manchester registrations from Kew except for the ones that started this thread, the class 3 mistakes of 4631 and 4632 - did these come with a drawing or were they text only notifications?
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though I've been back to Kew a number of times since Anne located the source of 4631 and 4632 (the Useful rather than the Ornamental Registrations), have to say that I've not made an effort to inspect these two and take photos - so the answer is that I've nothing to show for either at the moment.
When I next visit Kew I will order up the papers for them, and take some snaps which I will post in due course - though probably not for a month or so.
Have to say I don't really understand the reasoning behind the separation of Useful from Ornamental in the sense of these particular Registrations, but no doubt at the time it was considered necessary.