Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on September 18, 2011, 08:20:09 AM
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Henry Greener uranium handled basket with grape and vine pattern, although don't know whether it was intended for grapes. Lozenge mark too difficult to photograph (lies on the inside immediately below where the handle joins the basket) - but according to Jenny Thompson the details run out to registered design No. 238105. This was first registered on 14th January 1870 - so falls into the second group of diamond marks, although don't know when this example may have been made. About 7"/180mm long. Very good nick really, and the pressing is crisp and sharp. I've not seen one before, so just wondered if anyone thought this was a fairly common item, or perhaps far less so. thanks for looking. :)
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Hi Paul
I just found your post while checking out these two baskets which were in our box of surplus items, they must be fairly rare as your post is so far the only thing I can find about them. We have the j Thompson book., are they really uranium.?
The lozenge narks is impossible to identify them from. Would these be a good example for the gallery?cheers Mike
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Yes please, we welcome any photos of items that have an RD on them. We welcome other images for the different projects too: labels and signatures, some unregistered designs, crystal patterns etc... take a look at our gallery here: http://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/ (it's on a separate server/hosting for resource reasons).
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As with most of my glass this one has long since gone back to the charity shop, and whilst I may be very thick in many areas of glass id, I've no doubt that particular example was uranium .......... this was a time when I was very keen on glass that glowed and I spent every Sunday at boot sales with my u.v. torch. If you're asking if these Greener baskets are uranium as a matter of course, then the answer is definitely no .......................... like most of the pressed glass factories, a small percentage only of their pressings were made using uranium oxide in the batch - the majority of pressing were produced in the various other colours that we see such as the opaque Vitro-Porcelain, flint, translucent shades and the various marbled colours - all without uranium oxide in the batch. Your two examples appear not to be uranium - though the pale straw basket is a possible - so it's always worth running the torch over almost any glass you have - except clear - as uranium bearing glass can come in a variety of body colours, as Christine will tell you - perhaps she will give an opinion on your two - assuming you don't have a u.v. torch to hand.
It does surprise me that our examples of this basket should be the only ones showing in the Board's archives - perhaps we have missed seeing others that were posted for discussion and didn't get as far as the Glass Gallery Archive.
The Company has an interesting history, albeit with many financial problems and near bankruptcy, and although the Greener name was retained for business, they were swallowed up by Jobling in the late C19, with the original name disappearing in the 1920s when it morphed into Jobling. Pyrex and Jobling were a very successful pairing for some decades, although I think Corning bought out Jobling in the end.
Perhaps Fred might like to comment on the scarcity or otherwise of these Greener baskets - hope I haven't given away something that was valuable ;)
P.S. Anne - is the 'green' of Mike's second basket the sort of green akin to the Reich piece we were discussing??
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Greener was very keen on uranium! That particular design is not common. Unlike these two, though the blue uranium is uncommon. They seem to have come in three sizes too. I think the design registration is for the handle, as the blue one has the same registation mark. It's likley that the green is uranium too, as I think I may have an unphotographed one somewhere
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2211 and http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1268
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I too think that the design registration for Henry Greener for RD 238105 must have been for the handle shape rather than other aspects of the basket design because Christine's uranium blue example at
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2211
has a different decorative pattern to the 'body' of the basket compared to the other examples.
This is not entirely unusual for Greener's designs. For example, Greener & Co.'s 'twig/rustic-handled' baskets are known with different decorative patterns on the basket 'body'; the 2 baskets in the attached photo each bear the same pair of RD numbers - RD 965775 and RD 965776, both registered by Greener & Co. on 27 March 1888, one RD number being for the handle shape and the other presumably for the decorative body pattern. (Permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by Richie Nunn).
Fred.
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thanks to both for valuable info. :) I've just looked at TNA pix and Register entry for 238105 and neither the image, now attached, nor the 'comments' column in the Register, provide any clue as to what aspect of this design the Registration was protecting. But, in view of comments from Christine and Fred, and looking at the various decorative patterns within the other baskets then I'm sure they are correct in telling us it's the design of the handle only that was the subject of this Rd., and not the body of the basket.
You can see from the Kew image that the original Greener factory drawing for 238105 shows a 'hobnail' pattern plus Iznik/Persian sort of centre circle design, which is a match for the blue uranium basket shown by Christine.
However, it appears that by the time we get to Fred's 1888 rustic-handled basket, there was a name change leading to Greener & Co., plus what seems to have been a change of heart regarding their approach to Registrations. Whilst I accept that one identical pair of lozenge details on these twig handle pieces tells us it must be for the 'twig handles', I'm really unsure Fred as to what the other identical pair are protecting.
My thoughts are that it isn't the body pattern since both bodies have different patterns - is it more likely do you think that it might have been for the scalloped rim of the body, or possibly the shape of the body - both of which are the same on each basket?? :)
Unfortunately, I don't presently have Kew Register details or pix for 1888 to help.
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Some very helpful info as I have a feeling we have most off these shown on this post and Christine's post solves two greener baskets which we had logged as unidentified. But now look like greener,See below picture. On the subject of these similar colours I have included an Unmarked Believed to be Edward Moore basket, would this be uranium.?
All of which are in our box of surplus.
Thanks
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what makes you suggest Moore, Mike? Regret I've no idea if the larger of these three is Moore or not - I've a feeling that rope style handles were more a feature of their baskets. To my eyes your larger piece looks like clear glass, with a hint of manganese showing - is it clear, or is it actually green and it's my eyes that are going.
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I suspect that's a Greener too but can't tell if it's uranium from that picture. One in daylight would be more helpful if you don't have a UV light. If you want to sell them you would be better off buying a UV light (and leanring the uranium glow as opposed to the manganese glow) as uranium glass properly identfied as such attracts collectors
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The latter basket is clearly a flat plate design from the 1881 Percival Vickers pressed glass catalogue, twisted into a posy basket shape. Although no baskets are shown in the catalogue, someone has scribbled against the plate "basket found 6.4 x 5.2 inches" - this scribble would be from a glass collector annotating their copy of the catalogue.
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Great thanks for that, might explain why I haven't managed to find it against E.Moore which I've been looking all evening.here is another picture.
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Thanks Neil
Looks similar to this
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-unregistered-pressed-glass
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That's Neil's website you've found. Worth bookmarking as it's very informative. :)
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Thanks Anne, yes Neil's website is excellent and has been very helpful.
I also found the same plate in our collection, also referenced against Moore. The reference come from a collectors club magazine which I'm yet to get a copy of.should be interesting.
Anne, I am having trouble accessing the picture gallery, even after reading the help pages, can you advise.cheers Mike
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Look what I can see with my little uv torch, we had 3 of the 238105 plus 2 the same as Christine plus a few more bits. However the green basket from P.V does not light up.
I know you guys have seen this all before but I was a bit surprised as my father has never put a uv light on his yellow Pearline collection.
Thanks
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Anne, I am having trouble accessing the picture gallery, even after reading the help pages, can you advise.cheers Mike
Hi Mike, are you trying to register on the GlassGallery? If so, you should be able to do so but will then need to await my finger on the activation button - we get a lot of spam signup attempts so all signups are checked against GMB membership before being approved. Let me know if it's not working for you though and I can add you manually.
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Finally managed to get a copy of the article referencing E.Moore as one of the manufacturers of this Lacey design which may have originated in America.
It says it's from the 1870s Moore catalogue, this snippet is from the " Pressed glass collectors club" Birmingham. Please see attached photos below [ * ] and the one of our original green basket.
Who was copying who?
Cheers Mike
[ * ] Mod: The image of the article page from the the Pressed Glass Collectors Club has been removed for reasons of possible copyright infringement. Even though, as far we are aware, the club is no longer in existence, its articles, images etc. are still subject to copyright. However, Mike's brief information from the text in the article is confirmed by the contextual quote below'... a small side or ice plate depicts a pattern clearly shown Moore's 1870 catalogue. The plate was in fact made in sizes of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & 10 inches. It is plane [sic] to see that Moore must have taken some inspiration from the early American 'lacy style' pressed glass.
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I think the Pressed Glass Collectors Club have made an inference on the pattern. The plate they show is of an actual piece (it has chips) and not copied from a catalogue. It would be interesting to see the image from the actual catalogue. The item shown is identical to Percival Vickers, which was made in sizes 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 inches.
There's no doubt in my mind that some of the early plate patterns, before say 1845, were made for several manufacturers. My feeling with this design is that it is a bit later, and unlikely to be replicated across manufacturers, unless the same mould was being sold on. In this case it's difficult to see it being the same mould as the listed sizes are different.
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In the PGCC booklet (16 pages) Edward Moore, Unregistered Glass C.1870, which appears to consist of copies of the images from a catalogue, on page 11 there is a selection of custard cups and jelly glasses, one of which appears to be a match for the pattern on the plate Mike posted in reply #17 above. The booklet states that in 1888 Moore bought the "entire stock of moulds" from Coalbourn Hill Glassworks in Brierley Hill.
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I just had a quick peek on the Tyne and Wear Museum catalogue and found this entry for the same plate, logged as Moore:
http://collectionssearchtwmuseums.org.uk/#details=ecatalogue.282952 (http://collectionssearchtwmuseums.org.uk/#details=ecatalogue.282952)
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Some of the pressed glass attributions on the V&A website and on the Manchester Art Gallery website are known to be off (even of Manchester pieces) so unless there is source evidence it is difficult to be fully convinced.
Having said that, most of the plates in the PV 1881 catalog are generic, barring a few which they registered in 1873, and a couple that look distinctive enough that one hopes you could pin it to one glassworks, such as this one. Quite a few in the PV catalogue look close or identical to those in the earlier c1870 catalogue from Molineaux Webb. A couple of items look like they could be pre 1840 patterns, before PV opened in 1844.
If it turns out this one is a mould which was made several times over, then I guess we would have to ascribe the plate to Moore or PV and maybe others, if their catalogues had survived. As the moment though, PV is proved and Moore is inferred I would say.
It could also be argued the only plates PV had designed were the ones they registered, and all other moulds were bought in. Difficult to know.
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That's useful to know, thank you. Did you see my reply #19 as well Neil? I did two responses rather than go back and edit the first one, and it wrapped onto the next page of the topic... #19 references the images in the PGCC booklet Edward Moore unregistered designs c.1870.
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Thanks Anne/ Neil for your comments, Anne I'm impressed someone else had a copy pamphlet as there are several items and enlarged references at the back.
Still no picture of the green basket. I think I shall take the basket back to my father and place it back on the shelf in front of the 10inch plate and leave it alone.
As quoted in the pamphlet it's a minefield to try and attribute these old designs.
Cheers Mike
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a reminder to those of us interested in pressed glass, that we should be eternally grateful to those manufacturers who DID Register their designs. :)
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Mike, my pamphlet came as a freebie with the Davidson book I bought, by way of an apology from the PGCC due to the inordinately long delay in posting out my order. It has come in handy a few times for checking things though! :)
There are a few Edward Moore patterns shown on this page under Supplement to the Pottery Gazette - December 1st 1888: http://www.victorianpressedglass.com/pattern_books.htm along with two catalogues of Sowerby designs (dated 1880 and 1882). Useful to bookmark if you've not already found them. 8)
Paul, absolutely! And immensely grateful to you for going back to the National Archives and looking them up for us and posting images of the designs. :-*
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Just thought I'd add my two penn'orth with this pair I bought yesterday, I could feel the lozenge mark on one side of the handle but couldn't decipher it. It's good to identify them.
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I think these two are RD 238105 1870, checkout the gallery pictures for greener baskets, sometimes they have two registration numbers for bowl pattern and handle pattern. Lozenges in these are impossible to read sometimes.
Mike
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Yes Mike this post confirmed they are RD 238105, after taking another look I can just make out the "C" for 1870 in the right hand part of one lozenge.