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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Gary on August 04, 2012, 11:25:44 AM

Title: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on August 04, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
The photos here are of what I believe to  be a variant of the Monart SC shape and possibly an unrecorded shape. The first photo is a SC shape, what makes this one different it has a stopper as opposed to the one in the Monart catalogue which has not. The label and the piece is genuine, I have handled this piece and did bid on it.
http://www.lyonandturnbull.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=205++++++++3+&refno=++100063
The second is in the Perth museum collection, the neck on this one is much longer than the example in the Monart catalogue. The photo of this one is of poor quality, but I am going to Perth museum next to view the Monart archives and glass collection, so I will get a clearer image and measure it.
Gary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on August 16, 2012, 02:04:20 PM
Up date on my recent visit to Perth museum, below is a clearer image of Monart piece with dimensions included and a image of the base, which is indicative of early Monart production( no grinding of outer ring). The colour code is 162.
This piece is 33cm (13inches) tall and the one in the Monart catalogue is 23cm (9 inches), without other pieces to compare and measure against, it will be difficult to say if this one is an unrecorded shape or a variation of the Monart SC shape.
Does any member have a Monart shape SC ?, if so would it be possible to measure  the piece to compare with this one.
Gary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: flying free on August 16, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
I have a question - when you say early Monart production, what period do you mean please?
thanks
m
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on August 16, 2012, 08:25:15 PM
That type of finish was used mainly in the period 1924 (the start of Monart production) to approximately 1929.
http://www.ysartglass.com/BaseLabel/Bases.htm
Gary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: flying free on August 16, 2012, 08:55:44 PM
thanks :)
m
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: nigel benson on August 17, 2012, 05:03:57 PM
Hi,

It is of course quite possible that the way a piece of Monart is finished could relate to the shape being made, just as much as its chronology. Maybe this should be bourne in mind?

I know you're very careful about these things Gary, so just flagging up a thought ;) :)

Nigel

(PS. I haven't forgotten Gary, just had lots of domain and email problems - now sorted, but I'm away just now.)
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: helenaJ on August 17, 2012, 09:12:04 PM
I own the shape SC with stopper.  ;D

I also owned until recently another smaller SC without the stopper, the new owner is a friend and contributes to the Forum.   I know he hasn't as yet unpacked the bottle.   When I originally purchased it I believed it would be the same height as the decanter, but it's much, much smaller, no more than 7" in height.    I have no doubt if I sent the new owner an e/mail, he'd be able to confirm dimensions and may be provide a better picture

Mary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: helenaJ on August 17, 2012, 09:32:02 PM
2 pics of decanter

[Mod: Duplicate image deleted]
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: helenaJ on August 17, 2012, 09:34:10 PM
try again - second pic should be of the base  !!!

[Mod: Duplicate image removed]
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on August 18, 2012, 12:02:26 PM
Good point Nigel, but I did say "was mainly used" perhaps It should have been "mainly found". To date no post war pieces (1947-1961) has been unidentified with that type of finish. That leaves the pre war period (1924-1939) and every piece of Monart with a Monart Ware label (1924-1929/30) that I have owned, seen and have images of, have this type of finish. The only period left is when the Monart Glass label with the size, shape and colour code was in use (1929/30-1939), so far I have only come across one labeled piece from this period with that type of base finish.
Thanks Mary that would be great. Did you purchase the red and black SC at Burns auction house (2009).

Gary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: helenaJ on August 18, 2012, 01:29:29 PM
I think you may be right about the date.  Know I was living in France, so could well be - everything I have at the moment is still in storage, so I'm unable to check it out.   

I was a bit disappointed when it arrived and I saw the size of it, but the colours are brilliant, it's almost a solid red rising to black with lots of aventurine.   

Were you the under-bidder for the decanter?   I never expected to pay that much, but the pics don't do justice to the wonderful colours, just wish I could find the glasses that must have been with it originally. !!!!

Mary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on August 18, 2012, 01:55:08 PM
I was the under bidder and a bit disappointed in not winning it (sorry for puttting price up), the colours are brilliant and you are right the picture does not do it justice. I have few pieces of that colour scheme (colour code 156) and I can never take a photo showing the true vibrant colour of the red.
Gary
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Frank on August 29, 2012, 12:29:40 AM
Seems like some more work on shape variants is needed... fascinating. But you can always be sure that Monart will always surprise... one of its best features quite aside from being one of the most documented - but I never doubt as much again can be written. It is one of the most remarkable aspects of the Ysart family's glass.

Just had a small deja-vu to that day nearly 30 years ago when I first discovered Monart and realised it was something special.
Title: Re: variants of Monart SC shape ?
Post by: Gary on February 23, 2013, 08:27:49 PM
It is of course quite possible that the way a piece of Monart is finished could relate to the shape being made, just as much as its chronology. Maybe this should be bourne in mind?

With further research into Monart bases and pontil marks, I have come to the conclusion that a particular Monart shape does not determine what type of base and pontil mark is used on said piece.
The link below shows a selection of various Monart shapes with a variety of bases and pontil marks.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=991

The first two images are Monart shape AE, the next three are shape A, next two shape FA, next three shape FB, next two shape RB, next two shape WK, the next two shape WH and the last two shape Z.
As can be seen the shape of the piece does not determine the type of base and pontil mark finish.

Frank Andrews touched on the subject of dating a piece of Monart by the base and pontil mark (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3692.msg29304.html#msg29304), my conclusion are, in the main the type of finish of the base and pontil mark on a piece can be put in chronological order. I believe the first type of finished used by Monart was, no grinding to the base and some grinding on the pontil mark, see shape A,FB and Z  with Monart Ware label, the second was with a polished base and some grinding to pontil mark, see shape FB with pre war Monart Glass label and the third was polished base and pontil mark, see shape Z with post war Monart Glass label.

There is two other types base and pontil mark finish, one has the base polished and a concaved pontil mark and the other is when a piece has been polished completely flat with the pontil mark polished out, these two type of finishes were used throughout the life span of Monart. These can be seen on shape WH in link to glassgallery.
My research is still ongoing, if any members have a Monart piece with different type of finish other than I have described, please let me know.
Gary