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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Wuff on September 22, 2012, 12:27:05 PM

Title: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Wuff on September 22, 2012, 12:27:05 PM
This paperweight (http://www.ebay.ch/itm/271065139578) is scratch signed - signature doesn't look very professional, though.

I am aware of Ferro & Lazzarini, of course, and know their label(s) - but have never seen a scratch signed paperweight. The aventurine hints towards Murano .... questions:
1. Is this actually Ferro & Lazzarini? ... and (if yes)
2. Is the signature genuine, or added by someone else at a later stage?
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: rosieposie on September 22, 2012, 03:06:01 PM
Hi Wolf,  I have a Ferro and Lazzarini Elephant (2 in fact) and I have never seen an engraved signature for  F&L.
The first word is definately Ferro,  but can you be certain the second word is Lazzarini? I'm not too sure, and the engraving looks very 'Dremmelled'... maybe you are right to question it.
What are the red chunks in the glass?  Are they lumps of iron oxide?  If so, is the 'signature' saying Ferro something, Ferro being iron.
These are just thoughts not facts.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: adam20 on September 22, 2012, 03:32:26 PM
I have owned Ferro & Lazzarini weights in the past and they were labelled not signed. I also think that signature looks a bit rough.

Adam
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 22, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
 ???

The lumps inside it look like what is called "goldstone" - when it's being described by folk who are into crystals.
I'm pretty sure it's glass containing copper specks - and what is used as Aventurine in glass making (as opposed to the green stone the crystal folk call aventurine.)
However, I don't know how it's made if it is glass containing copper specks - how does it not oxidise?
It can get very confusing. 
You see bracelets and lumps of crystal on leather straps produced by crystal folk, who say it promotes good health or brings luck or whatever, and they have their names for certain semi-precious stones, then there are the real chemical names, the gemologists names etc.

Frankly, the whole weight looks like something fairly contemporary, probably from the far east, and is basically just lumps of goldstone shoved at the bottom of a lump of glass.
I can see no artistic merit in it at all, I can easily imagine a whole stall of them at some new-age fair.

You can buy elastic bracelets of goldstone and other crystally things very cheaply in British Heart Foundation shops, I don't think it's confined to Murano. ;)
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: rosieposie on September 22, 2012, 09:40:18 PM
Goldstone is not a naturally occurring crystal, but a man made glass formed by adding copper crystals to glass, and is never used by true crystal therapists (of which I am one!). It has no useful properties other than to look pretty.
That said, I don't think the chunks in the paperweight are Goldstone, although difficult to be certain without actually seeing one.
I agree, the paperweight looks as though it has had chunks of something added...
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: flying free on September 22, 2012, 11:50:48 PM
I'm pretty sure that mark just says Ferro Murano.  I don't think it looks like a bad mark, it's neatly written I think and that is quite hard to do I believe.
Not sure about the goldstone, to me it looks like chunks of pink bath sponge  :-[
m
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 23, 2012, 10:12:54 AM
I know you do crystal stuff, Rosieposie - but I don't know the difference between what you do and what I see on sale being promoted as crystal stuff.  :)
I didn't even know there was more than one kind. It's not my sort of thing at all, so sorry for any offence caused by my confusion.

I also didn't think "goldstone" was naturally occurring, but I am still curious as to how copper particles get suspended in glass without the heat affecting the copper's sparkly appearance. Copper is very highly reactive.

It's obviously possible or aventurine wouldn't be in glass.

 ;D ;D ;D I want the recipe, the mechanics, the physics, the chemistry, please, somebody????
I've asked this before on threads about aventurine, no answer has been forthcoming!


I still think this is some generic modern un-artistic thing with goldstone lumps in it. 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Sach on September 24, 2012, 01:08:00 AM

 ;D ;D ;D I want the recipe, the mechanics, the physics, the chemistry, please, somebody????
I want the recipe, the mechanics, the physics, the chemistry, please, somebody????
I've asked this before on threads about aventurine, no answer has been forthcoming!
 8) 8) 8)


Let me try then.  Aventurine glass is made by melting a formula very rich in copper.  The furnace is then turned off and the glass allowed to slowly cool.  While cooling the copper will begin to precipitate into small crystals.  The rate of cooling controls the size of the crystals formed.  To utilize the aventurine glass the crucible is removed from the furnace and the glass in the pot is broken in to usable sized pieces.  Over heating the aventurine when using it will destroy the crystals by remelting the copper into the glass.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Sach on September 24, 2012, 01:09:24 AM
Well clearly I managed to enter my text inside the quote somehow......
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 24, 2012, 08:36:02 AM
I don't care how you embedded things - this is wonderful Sach, thanks! :-*

Last question, when you say "formula rich in copper" do you mean the mix of raw ingredients, all the different solid lumps and powder etc. that constitute the batch before melting?

(just for complete clarity - I need to be able to "see" the whole process happening in my head.)
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: rosieposie on September 24, 2012, 08:55:59 AM
Absolutely no offence taken Sue,  :)  unless you are 'into' Crystal Therapy you couldn't be expected to know why we who are, dismiss goldstone as having 'healing' properties.
Goldstone is produced in much the same way as Sach has so clearly described... the 'Lump' of glass and copper mix is placed in the furnace and the outer parts that become overheated are written of as waste, it is the inner core that  is not overheated which is used to make the 'gemstones' that are sold as goldstone.
It is very pretty and quite costly due to the wasteage, but it has none of the Piezo-Electric properties of Quartz, and as the colour is artificially produced, neither will it work in Chakra Balancing.
I feel much as m does, that this paperweight has lumps of something unattractive within, and one thought was... could it be that we are all correct, and that these lumps are pieces of the overheated waste goldstone...??  Just a though?
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 24, 2012, 09:14:29 AM
So:-
That's me, Flying-free and you, Rosieposie, all think, no matter what the accuracy or not of the writing on it, or what it says, that the weight itself is a bit of total tat which would strongly suggest that whatever is written on it is designed to decieve.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: rosieposie on September 24, 2012, 09:27:09 AM
I suppose that unless you get to see the piece 'in the flesh' as it were, then that would be a difficult statement to make.  It could be that it was the best that artist could produce... the only thing I feel certain about is that it most likely is not Ferro & Lazzarini.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 24, 2012, 09:43:06 AM
I was being overly harsh using a word like "tat" - I certainly couldn't make it!  :-[

I've seen things of this type and quality, mostly in boxes which are labelled Royal Crest or Leonardo Collection or in heart foundation shops.
I do think it is a good few years since I've seen ones with goldstone lumps in them.
I do have significant memory problems, but I know I have seen weights like these before, en masse.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: glassobsessed on September 24, 2012, 10:44:55 AM
These weights have been discussed before but I can not find the topic now. Here is one with a label, sorry the photos are not the best.

John
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: flying free on September 24, 2012, 10:53:23 AM
 that has the pink stuff in as well.  Is it just the pictures?  but that doesn't look how I think aventurine would look in lumps.  It certainly doesn't look like the aventurine in my Nason pieces. 
m
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: glassobsessed on September 24, 2012, 11:17:53 AM
Sorry about that, no pink but probably a result of the white balance setting chosen at the time by the camera (and my lack of photographic know how). There is a green/blue blob visible though. This photo may be a little clearer:
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Sach on September 25, 2012, 01:08:30 AM
Yes, the batch mix for melting contains a good deal of copper bearing materials along with the usual slica and flux ingredients.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 25, 2012, 08:39:42 AM
Dropping off to sleep I was suddenly startled into wakefulness by the thought...

"Why does the copper metal not react with the glass to colour it when it is at a high enough temerature to melt the glass?"
Silver metal ions do - and copper is morre reactive than silver......
And I know Ed Iglehart uses old copper wiring to colour his lampwork glass.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 25, 2012, 09:48:14 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_%28gemstone%29

When the aventurine is used there is no oxygen in the molten glass to cause it to oxidise. Presumably you have to keep it within glass
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 25, 2012, 09:58:18 AM
Oxidation of copper is different to the metal reacting with the glass itself.

I don't know if copper does - but I do know silver does - hence yellows and ochres from the silver (in silver chloride) with clear glass and greens with blue glass. Silver (from the nitrate) will react with red glass to produce browns. You also find that lovely ethereal blue cloudy effect deep within a thick casing.

Copper oxide is black, a chemical substance on its own.

I did think copper should react directly with the metal, because of what Ed told me about using copper wire to give his colours.....
However this is all physical chemistry, I'm far more comfortable with the organic sides of science.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: rosieposie on September 25, 2012, 10:45:43 AM
Hi Christine,  your 'wiki link' describes perfectly what I was trying (rather clumsily) to describe about how goldstone was produced.....thanks, it is a great help to me as well as anyone else reading this thread. 
I am now convinced it is the waste or spoiled pieces used for the weight!!
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 25, 2012, 11:38:35 AM
Sue It's not the same; silver chloride is a compound that decomposes with heat to form silver and chlorine. Silver and chlorine are both way more reactive than copper, which is really pretty stable. These probably react with constituents in the glass other than the silica to give your colours
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 25, 2012, 01:06:01 PM
The chlorine dissipates as a gas..... when it's silver chloride, and both copper and silver tarnish in air (the green "copper" you see on roofs (rooves ??? ) is copper nitrate.
When you heat copper in just a bunsen burner, it goes purply and dull and red and sort of multicoloured - I've done copper enamelling, (jewellery, by myself) and I've seen fused glass plates and dishes with copper inclusions - which are all "burnt coppery" colours (they're lovely pieces - The Carnelian Gallery, in Crieff  ;) )  and glass is fused at lower temperatures than are required to melt glass....
 ;D
(
I did say I'm no good at physical chemistry.... I've just got a few inklings about how individual ions work, and they've got a nasty habit of flying off at random in subatomic bits.
I like great hulking lumps of protein molecules swimming around in a pH specific primordial soup, doing lovely neat gloopy enzymatic things with other proteins in a controlled manner at controlled rates..... mump grump... ;) )
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Sach on September 25, 2012, 03:28:22 PM
Copper does indeed cause pigmentation of glass.  It is used to produce shades of blue, green, and red depending upon the other elements present in the batch, the relative percentages of those other components, and the level of oxidation/reduction produced in the melt.  For aventurine it is necessary to control the conditions to prevent this from occurring and to induce the copper to crystallize out of the glass "solution".  Overheat your aventurine as you work it and the resulting color is a pinkish beige without any sparkle.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 25, 2012, 03:43:06 PM
I was sure it must,
thank-you, Sach. I was doubting my sanity.
( ;) no comment please, Christine!  :-*)
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 25, 2012, 05:34:23 PM
Sach is right of course

The colours will only form (i.e., the chemical reactions) when the conditions are right, which generally means in the presence of "oxygen", water or some other catalyst; heat is not always enough. Once the batch of raw ingredients has formed glass, everything that is going to react will have reacted and you have a pretty inert medium. That is why you can put silver metal, gold metal and copper metal into glass and they stay metallic. Silver chloride is an exception because it only needs heat to decompose. The chlorine is reactive enough to react with "whatever" in the glass and form a new coloured compound. The silver probably stays as silver metal but because there is so little of it you only see it when it is on the surface, as iridescence. Iridescent treatments rely on the fact that a spray containing a reactive salt and, importantly, lots of air gets hot on the glass surface. That the "colour" is sticks is more physical at the molecular level than chemical.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 25, 2012, 05:48:44 PM
I really don't think chlorine reacts with molten glass. It will form a gas and escape or form bubbles.
It's just the silver that reacts, to give the colour.
Most dyes and colours are associated with metals - (apart, I suppose, from the modern synthetic ones - I'ne notaclu what are in them.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: ck2407 on October 03, 2012, 11:17:19 PM
Still unsure about this paperweight  ???

The 'rocks'/'sand' on the base of the weight are very sparkly and more gold in colour than copper in reality.  The glass itself is transparent and only has a very few tiny bubbles in the 'dome'.

The signature on the base is ferro murano? and although it's quite clear it is ornate/old fashioned?

Does anyone know anything about this company/paperweight? (I've attached 3 photos)
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: Sach on October 04, 2012, 01:05:13 AM

Just opened this thread and quickly glanced at the image.  Read the first word as "Mexico", I can still see it that way just as easily as I can "Ferrro"   The use of copper aventurine does suggest Murano, although I would expect them to use it much more effectively.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: ck2407 on October 04, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
Thanks so much for your reply Sach.  I've looked again at signature through a magnifying glass as I too could possibly see 'Mexico' :-\.  It also 'sparkles' as it looks as if the same material in the base of the paperweight has been used and the maker probably european? due to etched signature as capital F is crossed and erro is joined up as is the word 'Murano'. Would love to solve this if anyone can help and find out more about this unusual paperweight as it looks quite old and surface of black base has become quite scratched.
Title: Re: Ferro & Lazzarini ?
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 09:52:12 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MURANO-GLASS-MILLEFIORI-PULLED-FEATHER-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-FERRO-/370655018756?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item564cc2bf04
there is another different weight here 'signed' Ferro Murano  :-\ it looks a little different  :-\ :-X
m