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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Anne E.B. on January 01, 2013, 08:53:55 PM

Title: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 01, 2013, 08:53:55 PM
This came with a lot of Victorian glass (one of a set of four).  I was thinking it might possibly be French ??? It doesn't match any Vallerysthal Portieux shaped egg cups that I can find however.  It has a flat polished base, and flat ground rim - 2" high.  Lots of age related wear on base and top rim.
Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly welcome ;)
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: keith on January 02, 2013, 12:42:45 AM
First thought was Stevens & Williams alabaster but is that cased? looks like it from the top picture, ;D ;D
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Paul S. on January 02, 2013, 09:46:58 AM
Hello Anne :)  -  attractive egg cup.             Is this slightly translucent, and if held up to a strong light can you see the opaline 'sunset glow'?
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 02, 2013, 10:17:24 AM
Morning folks. Thanks for your speedy replies  :-*
It is cased and appears to have 3 layers, i.e. a wider layer of paler pink on the inside, a much thinner darker pink layer on the outside, and a very thin line/layer of what looks like clear in the centre.  I did check to see if it was opalescent, which it isn't as there is absolutely no firey glow, but it is translucent and darker shapes can be seen through the glass when held to the light.

Is Stevens & Williams' alabaster non-opalescent?  I did do a search of S.&.W. pink, but it all seemed to be opalescent with a firey glow, so crossed them off the list.  French was my next thought, but the shape is much simpler than the Portieux ones, which all seem to have a thinner stem with a knop of some sort. 

I think I might have a full set here, as my sets of modern day ceramic and plastic ones are all sets of four ???  ;D  They are very pretty what ever they are.

n.b. I will take another image, as in daylight they are much paler than the first ones taken.
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 02, 2013, 10:24:22 AM
Taken in daylight.
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 02, 2013, 10:30:21 AM
Italian? Nason? Just a thought
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 02, 2013, 10:49:07 AM
The foot is very Nazeing...
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Paul S. on January 02, 2013, 03:53:45 PM
According to 'The Crystal Years', S & W alabaster is cased  but, unlike these pieces, doesn't have 'layers' that can be seen.     Neither does it (alabaster) have a sunset glow, so definitely  not opaline.      I have only one piece (in blue), and it's not easy to see the separate clear casing.   Again, according to the book, rose and blue were colours used  "extensively for toilet and bathroom accessories".   
Thats not to say the colour of these egg cups is dissimilar to  S & W 'rose' (from the alabaster range) - but I guess many factories knocked out something similar along the lines of a rosy-pink.

Taking a rather uneducated guess, I'd suggest that the colour texture of these is too uniform to be Nazeing  -  and I've looked through Geoff. Timberlake's book and can't see any mention of egg cups ;D

There's good reason for thinking that flat bottoms and ground rims suggest these are Continental, but they may well remain without positive attribution.          Lustrousstone's suggestion may well be correct.
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 02, 2013, 06:07:33 PM
Paul did you mean not having a sunset glow means it isn't opalescent? or is it a requirement for it to glow red when held up to light for it to be opaline  :-\  The sunset glow means it contains bone ash I thought?  Opaline can be made with or without bone ash iirc.
Anne I've had very old and new eggcup sets and all have been 4 cups so I think your set is complete  :)
I'm just curious about it being pale glass cased with darker glass.  Is that still called opaline?
Either way they are absolutely gorgeous!
m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Paul S. on January 02, 2013, 08:05:42 PM
hello m............I've just gone through all my books looking again at entries for opaline and opalescent - and am confused.    However, I suspect you are better informed than me on this subject.            I also think that some authors have muddied the waters along the way - and I get the impression that the original Baccarat product which they called 'opalin' didn't show a sunset glow.

my opinion is that if the piece is without the suset glow, then it isn't opalescent, and I don't have a problem with that, and had got into the habit of using the word 'opalescent' when referring to non-coloured products only i.e. Jobling's 'Opalique' and the bulk of Sabino and Lalique etc. (these all have a sunset glow) - so cannot be anything other than opalescent).

I also possess a number of coloured pieces which show the sunset glow, but seem to remember that when the piece is coloured I was told to call it 'opaline' and not 'opalescent'.
In the famous French 'bulle de savon' and 'gorge-de-pigeon (both opaline products), how are the colours produced  -  calcined animal ashes??

As I understand it, the opalescent effect seen in some of the famous pressed pieces from Manchester in the C19 would, as you say, have been produced using calcined animal bones and arsenic, although later similar products like Jobling's 'opalique' did away with the calcined bones and substituted a chemical composition of phosphates (but still included the arsenic).

Too many manufacturers have used words, or variations, on opalescent/opal/opaline - each with their own interpretation.

Harold Newman (dictionary) says ..........................Opaline - opacified with ashes of calcined bones and coloured with metallic oxides
Mark West says .............................when an opaline piece is held up to the light it is possible to see a red and orange tint, known as 'fire'.
Raymond Knotley says (speaking of opalescent)..................If glass of a uniform thickness was used, an even opalescent effect was produced and was called 'opaline'.

Did you mean to say ................opaline can be made with or without the sunset glow?              In order to simplify the matter, and to get back to the definition of Baccarat's orginal product, perhaps we should adopt the word opaline to cover only those pieces without a fiery glow, and to reserve the word opalescent for those which do.

P.S.     Re a set of four egg cups................. what happens if Mum and Dad have three children  -  who is forced to go without their boiled egg and toast soldiers ;)

Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 02, 2013, 08:19:00 PM
okay, I'm going to take some pictures of what I think of as 'opalescent' glass which has a fiery glow when held up to light.  I believe the fiery glow is a result of bone ash content.
I am open to correction on all these  :) so please do.

Secondly a picture of what I think of as an 'opaline' jug, I believe mid 19th century, I wouldn't say a fiery glow like the opalescent pike, but yes a warm glow under lighting.

Then a third of a 1930's Stevens and Williams rose pink 'Alabaster' range cordial that I also call opaline glass.  It is different to the previous two but not that much, and I've no idea if it contains bone ash.

Lastly a picture of a Baccarat Opaline perfume bottle again uncased, thick glass, translucent.  No really fiery glow like the opalescent but I do remember when held up to sunlight there was a warm glow.

Later opaline glass, I 'think', does not generally have bone ash content and so whilst it looks like antique opaline glass does i.e is smooth opaque colour but has some translucency, it does not have a warm glow when held up to strong light. But I don't think that makes it not opaline glass?

 However I did think that true opaline glass was simply one layer of glass, not cased but again I'm open to correction on that as it may simply be my misconception.

So what I mean by my question to you,  is that not having a fiery glow may indicate it is not 'opalescent' glass but doesn't indicate it is not 'opaline' glass as opaline glass may or may not have a glow dependent on whether or not it was made with bone ash.
I'm open to correction here, as I do often wonder what exactly is the  definition requirement for something to be classed as 'opaline' glass.

 I have seen reference to what I think of as opaline glass, actually referred to as 'opaline type' glass in Gulliver's Decorative Victorian Glass.  It looks like opaline glass to me, but perhaps is correctly referred to as 'opaline type' because it is not thought to be a Baccarat Opaline piece?  I meant to start a discussion thread on it after we discussed my small white opaline jug with the red rim



Attached below is a picture of an opalescent glass Molineaux Webb pike which has an obvious fiery glow
Also what I think is an antique mid 19th century, opaline glass jug, possibly Baccarat.
Neither are layered or cased.
I also attach a picture of a Stevens and Williams rose pink alabaster cordial.  This I also call opaline glass but I don't believe it it cased. The white opaline from the stem is drawn up over the pink very finely at the bottom of the bowl but the pink is just one layer.

Finally a picture of an antique Baccarat Opaline glass perfume bottle again uncased.

I'll hunt out some pics of what I think of as modern 'opaline' glass and add them when I can find something to photograph.



m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 02, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
1.  modern probably 70's? pale yellow 'opaline' lidded glass jar - not cased, translucent colour but close up magnified looks very different to my antique 'opaline' glass pieces above.  I would still call this opaline glass, no fiery /warm glow but it is uranium glass.

2. Blue 'opaline' glass Chance ashtray for Parker.

Just to add a reference for my comment above regarding Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass referring to a jug in what I would have called opaline glass, as 'opaline type' glass, the reference is page 238 and is the description of a mid 19thc large white jug with red trailed rim that looks very like a larger version of my small jug above.  His description reads'...The alabaster colored body and applied strap type handle are formed in an opaline type glass.  The body sits.....'  A blue jug below this is described in the same way.  Whereas a blue jug on page 248 decorated all over with silver leaves is described as being '...formed in blue opaline glass'.  For the life of me I cannot see what the difference is or why two would be described as 'opaline type glass' but the other as 'opaline glass' unless he knows that the one described as 'opaline glass' is a  French piece perhaps and the believes the others aren't.  However that is just my speculation.
m

Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 09:36:08 PM
... Just to throw a spanner into the works, Thomas Hawkes, Dudley Glassworks England, produced a translucent pink opal, but egg cups??? I do not think so....  "Opaline" as is termed, was only ever produced in France, to the best of my knowledge. Opalescent, Opal and Opaline are all completely different. All said, a lot of working procedures have gone into producing the egg cups... French Opaline, they could very well be and may have just had a set of saucers at some point? Have seen side plates of this colour type, and also in pastel blue, but as to the maker??? John
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 09:37:12 PM
P.S.   Nice Pike, Flying free.  :)
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 10:12:49 PM
If of any help: There are basically, three different kinds of opalescent glass however each type uses heat combined with coolness to provide its creamy-opalescent effect. In the first Sabino piece for example (don't worry please Anne, the glass is mine   ;) ) the blue-tinged & semi-opaque rich-creamy colour is produced by slower cooling of the thicker parts of the glass. The effects are astonishing under different light conditions. The glass glows a golden colour when light is allowed to shine through from behind, and then a wonderful opal-blue, bordering on violet-pink which blends into an almost white when lit from the front. Armed with this knowledge, it then takes thickly detailed glass patterns to bring this glass into life.

There is then also, vaseline (USA) uranium (GB) opalescent glass, as a second example. Here, the uranium glass has the ability to become completely opalescent throughout. Again, it is HEAT which will cause this. One can often note a dot of opalescent white, to the pontil mark upon such pieces, caused by the heat required to remove the ponty rod...  The creamy-white at the top of this piece is governned by rotating the vase in a flame. The opalescence will not travel any further than the controlled heat allows it to. "Opalescent" glass is in essence a "heat sensitive" glass..., whereas "Opaline" and "Opal" are not...  Not within English terminology of these glass types.     

SORRY.. My Pics need to be compressed before I can add them... This may tke me 'til next Christmas... lol   Am hopeless at such things :-(
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 02, 2013, 10:25:43 PM
Thank you for your comment on the pike.
Is this an example of uranium opalescent glass that might demonstrate your point?  If not I'll delete it :)
It is a uranium opalescent bowl that glows a mad fiery glow in light.
m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Paul S. on January 02, 2013, 10:51:40 PM
nice pike m.............if you want to part with it, let me know ;) ;)  -  although bearing in mind this piece includes uranium, I suggest we ignore it for the time being - we have enough confusion already.

Not really sure what you mean when you speak of a 'warm glow'  - whatever that may mean technically :)      Something is either opalescent (a real sunset glow) or it isn't  -  however, not everything without a fiery glow automatically becomes opaline.
The S & W alabaster was made to copy the naturally occurring mineral (even down to the white flecks) - and the book makes no mention of the words opal/opaline.    Apparently they were very secretive about the make up of their batch.

Many factories in Europe described their products under the heading of some variation on the words 'opal or opalescent' - and I doubt that you could now unravel the history of all of that.

Newman says that opaline was first made at Murano in the C17 (inspired by the Bohemians) - then France in the early C19, coming back to Venice in the 1930's  -  and he goes on to say that the early French material more resembled opaque white glass, but later pieces are closer to 'milk and water' glass.
I might suggest that in the absence of a fiery glow - but with a milk-like slightly translucent appearance - then you have opaline (also available in pastel colours).

John - I had some notion that opaline was produced in the States  -  is that wrong?

None of which helps Anne with her egg cups.    Sorry Anne :(

Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 02, 2013, 11:11:00 PM
Paul I think we may be talking at cross purposes
My original response to your post was to your specific comment

Quote
'According to 'The Crystal Years', S & W alabaster is cased  but, unlike these pieces, doesn't have 'layers' that can be seen.    Neither does it (alabaster) have a sunset glow, so definitely  not opaline. ' (my underlining of the point I was responding to)

To me your comment read that if it doesn't have a  sunset glow then it's definitely not opaline.

I was merely trying to demonstrate that opaline glass doesn't have a sunset glow although some of my older pieces do have a warm glow when held up to light.  They just don't have your 'sunset' glow that I think you are referring to, meaning that of opalescent glass I thought?

Yes, apart from the pike which is opalescent glass, I would call all my pieces opaline glass.  However I'm not entirely sure that is technically or historically correct with regard to the definition of real opaline glass.

I also did not know that opaline glass could be layered or cased and still classified as opaline glass, which was my question earlier.

No, sorry the fish wont ever be for sale  :) well, not  unless I come across another that is.  Unsure what you meant about it containing uranium though - or did you mean the bowl?

I added the opalescent uranium bowl because I thought it might help John with the point he was making about opalescent glass.  Happy to remove it if it's causing a problem
m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 11:40:39 PM
Paul S.  I "think" that much confusion is caused in the main
 due to the many different names that different countries call the very same glass-types... These things do not help, but cannot be avoided and nobody is to blame.
Certain terminology can also detract from what is the same: Warm Glow... Firery Glow... etc. A Glow is a glow after all and one will perhaps write "Firery" or "Warm"
when describing a certain glass. "MILKY-WHITE" or "CREAMY WHITE" for opalescent!
Same as Satin Finish... Matt-Frosted... but then again Satin GLASS is yet another term, which say in USA will be nown as Mother of Pearl...
But Mother of Pearl, was also termed by Kralik,
and both galss types are completely different...
The confusion continues to this very day and can become a mine field.
Many French folks will call any glass type Pate de Verre,
when to us here in England, Pate de Verre cannot be applied to every piece of glass...
We do not recognise Depression Glass or Vaseline Glass as terms which we have used...
It is Art Deco era glass or Uranium and not Vaseline.
Who is right or who is wrong is simple....  Neither of us are.
Center piece.. or Centrepiece? Color or Colour?
I would suggest that the only thing which truly differentiates, is the actual make-up of any glass-type; the ways in which it was produced, and when etc. which can determine what it is, rather than what "we" all choose to call it, in our own way.

And yes... OPALINE, to "ME" refers to a French glass, and was produced there only...
If or when the term OPALINE became more widespread, then fine, so be it perhaps,
but that is my individual understanding... as learned, and OPALINE glass is NOT Opalescent glass. It is an entirely different glass all together. 

"Cranberry glass" ... or is it "Ruby" or "Crystal Cased Ruby Glass???"
Each glass type (it could be argued) is exactly the same...
Only the terms that are used are different,
used by whoever it is that is describing such glass... 

I still like that Opalescent-Opal-Opaline Press-Moulded-Flashed-Glass Pike!  ;D   
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 12:00:08 AM
Paul S.  You have hit the nail on the head: "Opalique" was only a trade name used by Jobling.. Same as say "Crystaltynt" ad even "Crystopal" by Bagley... They are not a "type" of glass, but names used for marketing their glass and unique to each glassworks, but Jobling Opalescent glass is more or less the same chemical make-up as any other as is also say Bagley "Crystopal" to Jadeite...  There is even 'Almond Nouveau' glass usded by L E Smith, which in essence is 'Slag Glass' the ONLY difference being its name as used for marketing purposes.  :-\  Shucks.. why cannot EVERYHTING be known as PYREX! Life would be so  much easier then.  lol John
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on January 03, 2013, 12:10:08 AM
Is it all all feasible (bearing in mind the flat polished rim - I don't know if that would rule this suggestion out?), that they might be Archimede Seguso Alabastro?
Here is a link to a labelled fish that using pink over a white
http://www.rubylane.com/item/385822-RL420-12/ARCHIMEDE-SEGUSO-Murano-Pink-Glass

I appreciate there are differences but just wondering?
m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 01:16:23 AM
...absolutely.. It is only through shared opinions and suggestions that each can help each.
Perhaps the subject matter (egg cups) will be the pointer in this instance, rather than the glass type itself...  After all, it would certainly rule out many factories, whilst also introducing those who produced such items? John
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 01:23:02 AM
... another thing of course (subject to them being egg cups) is that for them to have a culinary use, then sodalime glass could be ruled out, due to the sudden heat of a hot boiled egg being placed into them! I'd sure not risk it with most glass types!!!  And surely, "egg cups" in this instance would not have been made purely as decorative pieces?
Just a thought... John
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 03, 2013, 02:47:50 PM
Thank you so much for your fascinating input folks :-*
I'm afraid I can't add anything remotely intelligent or knowledgeable to the discussion, but just out of interest, include an image showing the rim in more detail and the base.
I'm widening my search to also include American glass...  :)
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on May 09, 2017, 07:27:11 PM
is the base on these very slightly concave, i.e actually a very large polished pontil mark?

Also is the interior actually a pale white with the pink reflecting through it rather than pale pink?

I think the cut rim is beautifully done and you don't usually see a cut and bevelled rim on old Italian glass do you?
I'm thinking these might be Bohemian and quite old.

m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: Anne E.B. on May 10, 2017, 03:15:41 PM
Sorry but I no longer have these. :-[
I'm not quite sure what I did with them  ::) Most probably sent to the local auction in a box of assorted things.
Darn!
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on October 17, 2017, 06:35:53 PM
Bohemian I think
http://sumava.net/fr.asp?tab=snet&id=9855&burl=

This is a photograph of display items in the
'Exhibition from the collections of the Klatovy Museum; showcases in the entrance hall of the museum.' (according to google translate.  I'm sorry but  my knowledge of Czech museums is entirely limited so I don't know if that is the right translation).

Scroll down to find the pink eggcups ** (down to 10th and 11th photographs)
** See reply below

There are many 'interestingly' enamelled items on there that might be of some interest since I do see them on the board and online from time to time.
There are also a few pieces of superb opaline glass!

m
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on October 17, 2017, 10:58:33 PM
sorry, didn't mean 'to find the pink egg cups' meant to say  ' to find similar shape to the pink egg cups'.  I think they might be little schnapps glasses or something whereas yours look more like egg cups.
However, I'm sure the process is the same (pink over white cased and then a cut rim) -  the pink is the same and the foot also looks to be the same or similar shape.
Title: Re: Old pink opaline egg cup
Post by: flying free on November 14, 2017, 07:30:17 PM
There is a lidded bowl here being sold by Antikes Neuwirth which explains the process as white alabaster glass cased with pink goldruby glass, and calls it ' so-called Jubilee' glass

http://antikes-glas.de/en/neuwelt/white-alabaster-glass-with-pink-overlay-gold-painting-p-1838.html

They say Harrach 1870-1900.

m