Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: Patrick on December 09, 2005, 03:26:15 PM
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Hi, I think this may be a vase by another factory ( Not Whitefriars ) .....
http://whitefriars.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=3575#3575
Do you have the Answer? Thanks Patrick....
Mod: The link is broken, but the vase in question is here (http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/a6-auctions/a6-01-06/auctions_during_june_2001.htm). "Ruby Bark/Bowl 5", search the page for "£42".
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I'm with Jon Andersson. I think it was probably blown uneven, came out of the mould with the top a bit heavy and once on the punty, the gaffer opened it out to stretch the rim.
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There's a similar shape vase here... http://www.hemswell-antiques.com/products.php?type=cat&cat_id=74 but I don't know if this is helpful or not. :?
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With all due respect,
I have a view...
the glass makers are probably right, the glass commentators may have missed a variant, and those that set their faith in the absolute certainty, of the rectitude of the commentator's knowledge, will have the parameters of what they, and their idols, thought, challenged...more often than is comfortable..... So,
same as it ever was....
Only fiscally motivated buyers/sellers have something to fear, amateurs know the true value of what they buy.....
Sorry Patrick, it is probably not what you wanted to hear. Anne, nice find, (take a bow) and Emmi, we can move the rules all day, hand gathers, and different gaffers, bad hang-overs and find all the excuses we want, these folks were real people, not machines, what the hell makes collectors so bothery arrogant, that they want every piece delivered within the parameters of a latter-day, anally-retentive, automaton? If you want exact piece by piece accuracy, buy Pavel Hlava designed automatic production glass, Sherdley, but Whitefriars????... please, get real.
Marcus
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Hi Marcus, I am with Anne on this and put her well found link on Whitefriars. com.......................... I just was not convinced it was a normal bark vase that was opened out !!!!!! Are you saying it is or is not ? or are you with Anne on the vase ? Regards Patrick
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I think the person bidding on 7372260533 knows quite a lot about Whitefriars. 8)
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Hi Patrick,
I am definitely not a Whitefriars expert.
However, when active glass makers are saying yes this is ok.... we have to listen.
Me I'm merely a commentator on Czech glass, and I have been wrong. I don't make glass, but I might know slightly more.... i do not presume I am expert/ infallible ...
Anne's link suggests that these vases are not unusual.
Adam Aaronson and Jon Andersson are suggesting this is within normal parameters...
Me, with a background knowledge of Czech glass, I'm suggesting that the parameters that are being policed are wrong. I firmly believe that pieces such as the vase at the centre of discussion, can and do exist, outside any pattern book, because hand pressing was inexact, no team stays the same, and the aberations make glass interesting.
I "know" lime green, does not exist in Czech pressed glass.... yet twice in a fortnight, examples of a non Czech colour have appeared...... so why...? Not because I'm an idiot, not because my knowledge is not good, or comprehensive, but because,.... Czechoslovakian glass has done some thing I was warned about.... it has thrown up an anomaly, based on materials shortage, on a particular day.
It sure as hell makes me uncomfortable.... having studied this area of glass for many years.... :lol:
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Can I just say that I'm not making any assertions about this vase. I happened to find a similar shaped vase whilst looking for something else and posted it as a matter of interest - nothing more should be deduced about my views from this please. :)
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The honest answer from me... I don't have the answer.
Regards,
Marcus
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This bowl/vase may well be a Whitefriars piece. Certainly it is not a catalogued item. That does not matter as there are numerous un-catalogued items that have appeared and been given provenance by ex-Whitefriars workers.
It IS important that this is identified as the seller has it advertised as Whitefriars. The seller has admitted that he thinks it is Whitefriars as it has a similar look, feel and pattern etc, to his Whitefriars bark vases. He has also admitted that that is all he knows and can't be sure. He is being honest about it. There are far too many items advertised as Whitefriars that are not. Most are described wrongly through lack of knowledge. Some are dishonestly advertised as Whitefriars. Nobody whould have to pay for something that is NOT as described. Whether it cost £5 or £5000.
Adam and Jonathon Anderssons views on HOW it was made I am sure are correct. I am certainly not going to argue with them. The item HAS been made! LOL!!! WHO made it is another matter.
Here are some facts that I do know from studying Whitefriars items.
It is NOT Pattern 9835. Emmi on whitefriars.com is entirely correct. It is the wrong size but that is the LEAST important thing. As anyone knows, and Emmi certainly knows, Whitefriars pieces are regularly under and over size.
The shape is wrong. It is just not the same.
Pattern 9835 has a completely different style of texture. The mould for the texture was not the same as the one for the bark vases. It was a new style for 1974.
There are many pieces of glass similar to Whitefriars. Especially the textured items. There are Scandinavian, Czech, Maltese and other British companies that all made similar glass. It is quite easy to mix them up. I do think that the glass in question is more like Whitefriars than most that appear. I will not just take the word of the seller though.
Le Casson, most Whitefriars collectors now know that there are many Whitefriars items that were made that were never in a catalogue. Many were friggers, some were seconds and some are "Experimental". You do a great disservice to Emmi in thinking that as this piece does not "fit" that she thinks it can't possibly be Whitefriars. Certainly she has her doubts as do others. She merely pointed out that the item was not that shown by Anne. Emmi is a collector of Whitefriars and I do know that she does not buy things for their monetary value. She has take giant strides in learning all about Whitefriars and her knowledge on the subject gets better everyday. I also think you will find that the majority of Whitefriars collectors do not buy them because they might be worth thousands of pounds. That idea is mainly absolute garbage. You might also have addressed Emmi on the correct forum. She has not added to this thread but does contribute to the glassmessages forum.
Anyway!!! So is it Whitefriars or not?
Vidfletch
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.Hi David , I Have now CLEANED MY GLASSES, and as you say it is NOT a 9835 vase !!!!!!
However I still think the amount of glass on the rim would be hard to achieve from a standard bark vase with a heavy top that has been expanded....
If only we had been there when it was blown... Regards Patrick
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Thank you David for your kind words....I have posted on whitefriars.com where this topic originally started. Emmi
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Jacqui Olive of www.whitefriars.org has noticed that what is probably the same vase/bowl was for sale on Ebay way back in June 2001. It ended at £42 but did not meet its reserve. May be there were "Reservations" !!! LOL!!!
See http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/a6-auctions/a6-01-06/auctions_during_june_2001.htm
During that year there were a few of Pattern 9835 sold including two ruby ones. See this one.
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/memb1/a6-auctions/a6-01-05/auctions_during_may_2001.htm
Just scroll down the pages and you will see them.
Interesting but still provides no answers!!!
Vidfletch
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Well that was a good find by Jacqui....altogether a better photograph, and would have aroused some interest at the time I would think, but still not in my view a redesigned bark or a small 9835 although the quality of the glass looks very good. As you say, still not an answer...it would be interesting to have seen the original listing details/description for this one as well.
I noticed as I was browsing this 2001 archive 2 FLC Coffins - one Aqua one Gold at £26 and £27 respectively!!!