Glass Message Board

Glass Mall => Glass Market Place => Topic started by: wurlitzer on April 06, 2015, 07:38:37 AM

Title: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 06, 2015, 07:38:37 AM
WANTED! Stuart water goblets in what I believe is called the "Waterford" pattern  with or without Kny signature. I'm in Australia and can't possibly find these locally. I need at least two.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Anne on April 06, 2015, 04:01:45 PM
I can't find a Waterford pattern by Stuart ... Are you sure this is its proper name?  Stuart became part of the Wedgwood Waterford group in 1995 and some Stuart was made at Waterford for a while.

Have you looked at http://replacements.com/crystal/STU.htm for a pattern match? They do supply worldwide so may be able to assist you. Good luck!
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 06, 2015, 08:39:10 PM
Thanks Anne.

I'm fairly confident this is the name, or at least that it has become known by this name. It's extremely annoying trying to search for it this way obviously...  You do see tableware in the pattern from time to time and there is currently a centrepiece on eBay but stemware is much more scarce. It doesn't appear on replacement sites at all. Thought this would be my best shot besides the glass dealers in the uk.

Ta,
David.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Anne on April 06, 2015, 09:58:03 PM
Do you have a photo of the stemware David? If so you could upload it here in case anyone spots some somewhere...  just a thought. :)
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 06, 2015, 10:45:08 PM
It's clear not red
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 06, 2015, 10:46:57 PM
Detail
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Anne on April 07, 2015, 12:57:58 AM
Thank you, that's very useful to see. Armed with this and a bit of searching on the board I found an earlier discussion about this pattern, so am adding the link here for cross-reference: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,59193.0.html where Paul mentions the Waterford name also...  it doesn't find you some more goblets yet, but at least we now know for what we search! :)
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 07, 2015, 01:13:31 AM
Thanks! Splendid!
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 07, 2015, 03:26:56 PM
oh, I don't know  -  think I prefer it in red ;) ;)

Don't recall seeing Waterford on a drinking glass, in my travels, but you see so many over the years it's always possible.        My thoughts are that this is a large pattern for drinking glasses, and just perhaps was used more on those of a larger capacity only ??

Just about to add a little more to my plate post that Anne links.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 07, 2015, 10:08:47 PM
Actually I have small wine glasses, and have seen champagne and liqueur glasses all with this pattern, though they are a different shape. The goblets (well 4 of them)have the Kny stamp on them. While I own some larger pieces and have seen many pieces of tableware and dressing table sets  in this pattern it is really stemware that interests me the most. This set of six goblets came with a decanter which  I suspect was actually made for the smaller wine glasses I bought somewhere else. The goblets seem to have had a long history as one was an unsigned replacement and another an unmarked incomplete example. I realise the controversy surrounding the Kny stamp and verifying designers of particular patterns but regardless, having a full set  of six (or more) is important. I can live with the previous replacements but unfortunately my wife managed to crack and chip one of the signed examples and it's that one I'm trying to replace ATM.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 07, 2015, 10:55:05 PM
I would say that the smaller glasses I have are actually a more elegant and attractive design. They are unlike a lot of Stuart stemware. This pattern coupled with their bucket shape gives a very crisp feel to them. They have a faceted stem and a more complicated base design as well which is more in keeping with the feeling of the broader design. The decanter mimics this by having an inverted shape to the glasses and a long faceted stopper. Very attractive altogether. However these wine glasses are a little too small to use for most drinks I like so the goblets become the most important.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 08, 2015, 07:15:29 AM
any chance of seeing a good pic of the decanter David?
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 08, 2015, 08:38:01 AM
Hope it's ok. It's the best I can manage here ATM
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 08, 2015, 09:58:38 AM
very nice bottle - the size and height lend themselves to this particular pattern, in my opinion.

Coming back to Andy McConnell....    not sure if you are aware but he did produce a rather thick and heavy book a handful of years back, specifically on decanters........   probably one of the best glass books produced in recent years.             On the secondhand market this fetches three figures, but Neil tells us that Andy is in the process of revising and re-issuing the book, so mention this should you be interested.

Understand the reason for a new edition is to hopefully include a larger section on C20 bottles, which in the first issue was rather limited.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: wurlitzer on April 08, 2015, 10:12:58 AM
No I wasn't aware of the new books. Sounds exciting.  I don't know what other shapes were produced in this pattern but would love to see examples.my guess is that the other  decanter I have is from a different period or series as it's really just the same normal shape with the Waterford  design on it. I've never seen another stuart decanter in this taller shape in any pattern. I also assume that water goblets exist in this pattern which are basically larger versions of the wine glasses instead of the round goblets. Now they would be beautiful!
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 11, 2016, 05:54:20 PM
[Mod: Please note that Paul's decanter shown in this post has been agreed as "not the Waterford pattern". Rather than attempt to modify what is a useful discussion, please see the new thread (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62527.msg351121.html#msg351121) that Paul has created for this decanter - for which somebody may eventually be able to give a pattern name.]

unfortunately, we didn't see a picture of David's other decanter, but always possible it may have been the same as the attached example.
At least I think this one is 'Waterford'  -  there seems to be some variation in what might loosely be described as a butterfly outline  -  a large rectangle with a substantial mitred cut within each of the four segments, producing a sort of 'four wings appearance'.                 Of course, if someone knows it's some other pattern shout quickly.

The backstamp is simply the word Stuart - no England - and the final t has a Wrigley tail.             In view of the lack of staining, base wear and overall condition - combined with the type of backstamp, then I'm going to suggest the date of manufacture is around 1950 - 60.

It will no doubt go back out to the charity shop very soon, but for 2.99 I couldn't resist it.

Not sure what David meant by 'the same normal shape' - decanters vary enormously in design and shape  -  I was tempted at first to say my one was a form of bludgeon, but now not sure, and it could even be something rather obscure called a 'Taper-globe' - an Anglo-Irish form made originally c. 1800 - 1820 - a hybrid derived from the taper and shaft-and-globe.             But I'm taking a bit of a punt and could be well of course.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: brucebanner on April 12, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
The original post is listed as 26320B as shown here in Stuart's 1930's catalogue 51, I think yours Paul is missing the two downward cuts and looks more like the second pattern on a vase in an early 60's catalogue maybe  30149.

On the next page the set looks different on the foot and stem listed as 26958

The page with all the decanters is from the 1927 catalogue.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: brucebanner on April 12, 2016, 03:47:50 PM
Second page showing the rest of the set.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 12, 2016, 06:51:29 PM
yes, I think you're right Chris  -  'Waterford' is quite distinctive, and it's unfortunate that there are other fairly similar variations on the large mitres design which makes life confusing   -   it does appear from your pages that factory pattern Nos. 26320B, 26958, 27239 and 27586 are all 'Waterford.
I've just compared my decanter with my 'Waterford' trinket tray and there is a noticeable difference.

As you've suggested, am sure my decanter matches factory patterns 30145 and 30149 - the goblet and what I assume is a tall ale glass.

What knowledge of factory pattern names that we do have (as opposed to simply Nos.) comes from books, and unfortunately I'm not aware of having seen a name for my decanter pattern  -  haven't seen it in my few books that show material from this factory  -  so nameless for the time being.                  Stuart designs must be one of the largest in terms of different patterns.
I haven't tried the Replacements Ltd. site yet - will have a look some time  -  but there are so many different patterns shown that I run out of enthusiasm, usually.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: brucebanner on April 12, 2016, 07:58:41 PM
Is Waterford a documented name I have never heard of it?.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 13, 2016, 08:07:32 AM
Am sure I originally picked up on this name via the Miller's/McConnell book '20TH-CENTURY GLASS'  -  page 237.                 It forms part of an interesting eight page section solely on Stuart, from the late C19 up until approximately the late 1930's, and covers most of the better known types and patterns of glass, produced by this factory.
Andy McConnell speaks of ............"Kny's Waterford pattern...........derived from the C18 repetoire ..................etc."         I have in fact quoted, elsewhere when we were speaking of 'Waterford', the full caption accompanying his pictures, where he says that some pieces in this pattern are in fact signed by Kny.
Reading Andy McConnell's comments in Miller's, he comments that 'Waterford' was a cut pattern adopted by English cutters in the late C18  -  so perhaps it was something that Kny chose and gave his own variation of.                Apparently, despite the seemingly obvious connection, this pattern has nothing to do with Ireland.   

Nigel also refers to this cut design, in his 'ART DECO TO POST MODERNISM', where he writes ............."known locally as the 'Waterford Pattern' (page 11).

Would imagine this is one of the earlier names given to a cut design from Stuart, and although it appears to have remained in production until at least the early 1950's, I've no idea if it survived beyond that period.................    judging by the book references it's heyday looks to have been c. 1930  -  1950.

If you have a rummage through my contributions re Stuart/Waterford, you'll probably find where I quote, in full, McConnell's words from the book.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: brucebanner on April 13, 2016, 10:10:08 AM
Ok that makes sense with the timing of the pattern name, I could not see how Stuart would name a pattern after a competitor but Wayerford Crystal by the looks as a company did not take off until 1947 maybe as the Stuart pattern of the same name died out ?. I think unknowns should be given a pattern name would help collectors source matching sets.
Title: Re: Stuart "Waterford?" pattern water goblets
Post by: Paul S. on April 13, 2016, 05:09:07 PM
I had meant to also say earlier today that.............      as we know, many of Stuart's cut designs do have names - some very well known - as can be seen from the Replacements.com site, although I've no idea if these names were provided by the factory, or had some other less official origin  -  there are just a very few on the Board's Glass Gallery C5 site, 

Whilst the pattern for this cut design seems to have originated in Eastern Europe, I don't know whether it was Ludwig Kny or someone else at the factory, who originated the 'Waterford' name for this particular cut design - nonetheless a very good and early example perhaps of success by word association, since Waterford Crystal had a reputation for fine cut flint glass from the late C18 until the 1890's.              As you say, the name was revived again around 1947.

Until recently it has been difficult to source images of this factory's pattern books, not that this necessarily would have provided names, but a daunting task, especially in view of the volume of different patterns produced.