Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: glassgull on December 08, 2011, 11:49:40 PM

Title: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 08, 2011, 11:49:40 PM
I just wanted to share a photo of a very early
free blown English footed flask. 17th century. It is the
smaller example on the left.
Greg
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 09, 2011, 12:14:53 PM
Wow, thanks for sharing!

(Sorry, oldglassman Peter - I think these are far lovelier than your glasses  :-[ I like bottles.)
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on December 10, 2011, 12:03:21 PM
Hi Glassgull
         Interresting bottles , do you have any history,provenance etc to go with this piece that you would be willing to share ?

Sue, lol  each to there own , wouldn't the world be a very boring place if we all like the same things ,

though you might like this 1 .

A Lynn Decanter with moulded rings and very naughty kick up base , c 1750.

cheers,
          Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 10, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
 :24:
I think that's more Michael's cup of vino than mine Peter, but fascinating!
It's all the prunty bits and wiggles on the small flask at the top that I love.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 03:34:30 PM
Making a definite attribution to the place of manufacture and date of any piece of early Glass without authentic and accurate documentation would be improper. Even with the case of the footed flask I posted, I should have stressed that my statement of age and origin is a product of research and educated speculation. Several associates who are very well versed in early blown glass have also helped me in making an educated guess or assumption with the determination of origin
and date of manufacture. Other contacts with the Victorian and Albert Museum, Norway's Oslo Museum of Decorative Arts and cross referencing with examples in collections like the Walter Hale collection at Grocers Hall. There have been other similar examples put up in auctions like Bonham's. In the book “The Decanter” you will find another example. During the George Ravenscroft period, examples
with the same form and decoration were made but they typically had a small Ravens head seal attached and a good percentage of the glass suffered from crizzling. This fact has also helped in my theory that the proper lead content with other ingredients helped with the stabilization of the glass in my example which makes me feel my flask was made shortly after the end of the Ravenscroft period. I could actually list other areas of research and contacts but this would take up large
amounts of time and writing. I have other close up photos that show more detail of  the applied foot and decoration. I feel I should have said when posting the flask that through research I feel this footed flask could be 17th century English manufacture .

Greg
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 03:59:45 PM
photo
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 04:00:31 PM
photo
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 04:01:24 PM
photo
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: johnphilip on December 10, 2011, 04:18:47 PM
Peter i love the simplicity of your piece , what more does one want !!! the Kick base really makes it . nice one and Greg remember its the time of year for giving . jp
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on December 10, 2011, 04:19:46 PM
Hi Greg ,
                 Thanks for that ,its always interresting to hear of other peoples research on items they have , your reference to sealed Ravenscroft examples in this form is new information to me, though I must admit bottles and flasks have not been as major an interrest as the drinking glasses are to me ,the recent Bonhams Items if I remember correctly was in the Hartshorne sale I think ,the same one illustrated in Bickerton ,it has been the opinion of quite few for some time now that many of these flasks and that 1 in particular( I think the low selling prices reflected this thought) are not dated correctly and in fact could well be much later,in the style of 17thc examples,I have heard that Scandinavia was a possible place of manufacture for these later ones , so your contact with Oslo would have been interresting,I must say I am more convinced with your bottle though.

Cheers ,
           Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on December 10, 2011, 04:23:47 PM
HI ,
         Great photos,
  the second shot shows what looks to be a lot of ware on the edge of the foot ,were no contact is made ,or am I needing to go to specsavers?,

Cheers ,
           Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on December 10, 2011, 04:31:43 PM
Peter i love the simplicity of your piece , what more does one want !!!   

 A Mini one   6 ins with its own plate  :wsh:

Cheers
            Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 05:18:54 PM
Peter,
Thanks for your reply. Your right about attribution to these
types, they have been scrutinized. That has been a problem I have
been faced with. When you look at the other decanter on
my first post, you can see a major difference in glass type.
That decanter has been dated around 1830 and produced
at the Gjovik glass works in Norway. It is made of a nonlead
glass. It has a gray like color. Information I have received pointed
out the use or nonuse of lead in these types of decanters help
delineate areas and time of manufacture. It's all speculation.
Statements from Representatives of a few large auction firms,
validate what you said about origin. They seem to let the bidders
make the evaluation for themselves. As for the ware on the side
of the applied foot, that has been a point of interest of some.
Once again theory has that it may have been in some case or
leather bag of some type and rubbed against the sides during
travel on horse or coach. The ware under magnification very much
looks authentic????? Being a student of the study of early glass can
be very rewarding and frustrating. But its the unknown that keeps
you digging deeper.
Greg
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on December 10, 2011, 05:46:43 PM
Peter,
 But its the unknown that keeps
you digging deeper.
Greg

 It sure is , you might like to have a look at this post , and the other at the end of that 1  http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43544.0.html (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43544.0.html)

The ware on the edge of the foot is very interesting , I cant think though of any kind of carrier which if abrasive enough to scratch like that made no contact with the rest of the flask which is wider than the foot and is unscratched .

cheers,
              Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: KevinH on December 10, 2011, 09:58:28 PM
Quote
The ware on the edge of the foot is very interesting , I cant think though of any kind of carrier which if abrasive enough to scratch like that made no contact with the rest of the flask which is wider than the foot and is unscratched .
How about a tray of some kind with a shallow, snugly fitting recess???
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: glassgull on December 10, 2011, 10:51:28 PM
I do want to clarify that the prunts and pinched glass on the sides of the widest section of the flask do exhibit considerable ware that does
not show in the pictures.
Greg
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: Ming on December 12, 2011, 02:48:38 AM
There was a 17th c flask very similiar to Greg's in Fieldings 3 centuries of Glass No. 72  LOT 58 few years ago for £500.  

An early 18th Century flask circa 1700, the body applied with pinched strapwork and raspberry prunts, a central band of "nipt-diamond-waies" above a similar basal collar, 15.5cm long. ILLUSTRATED.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: freeblown on March 05, 2012, 11:04:46 PM
What a beautiful flask Greg. If it is indeed lead glass I would agree with you that it is likely English circa 1700. Thanks for sharing the pictures! Rob G.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: Paul S. on March 06, 2012, 10:45:35 PM
I think I'd like to own any piece of late C17 glass - whether it be a flask or something with Lynn rings - they all look very 'historic' :)

I have no knowledge of these older pieces since they are beyond my pocket, but nonetheless like to acquire some information as they concern a distinguished period of English glass making  -  and would like to pose some questions, which I'm sure Greg already has the answers to - and which will help me to understand a little more.

I'm aware, from the few books I have, that for perhaps 25 years after the death of Ravenscroft the lead oxide content was increased to a maximum of something like 33% (at which level it stayed for a long time).          In view of Greg's comments regarding the flask...............quote............."my theory that the proper lead content with other ingredients helped with the stabilization of the glass in my example which makes me feel my flask was made shortly after the end of the Ravenscroft period."  -  suggests a similarly high lead content, and presumably if so then it must feel heavy for its size.   Is that so?  -  and definitely not soda glass.   

Despite the lead content, it probably won't ring, presumably because of its shape  -  so I guess no point in giving it a flick :) - perhaps you have already had this tested for lead content Greg (although I believe it may not be possible to test for percentage content).

Had it not been explained which piece was which (in the first picture) I would, in my ignorance, have plumped for the right hand example being the earlier piece - I have become accustomed to being told that older, lead content glass, appears less bright and with a slightly leaden tone - partly because of the high lead content which was a characteristic from that period (and for probably the next 120 years) - I can see this colour in some of my own British Regency and Georgian glass. 

The clarity of this flask is noticeable in comparison with the right hand piece, although I don't know what decolouriser might have been used at the suggested period of manufacture     I believe that the use of manganese was known in the early C18, but what agent might have been used at earlier dates  -  or were they just very careful about avoiding the iron content  and choosing very clean English flints.

As regards the wear on the sides of the foot and body, as we know, this doesn't in itself indicate any particular age - rather some rough use perhaps somewhere in the last 200 years, although leather would not be a culprit unless impregnated with something like quartz particles in some way.

Hope you won't think my questions too pertinent Greg, and feel sure you have the answers anyway :)
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on March 06, 2012, 11:21:13 PM
HI ,
            You might find a lot of the answers to questions you may have on early English glass here,

                       http://www.cbrain.mistral.co.uk/home.htm

   Cheers ,
                Peter.

 ps  Colin has also written an article on my 'Dublin' baluster goblet ,made in Odacio Formicas Glass house in Dublin , c 1690  ,published in the latest edition of the Glass Associations , 'The Glass cone'.
                      
                
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: Paul S. on March 07, 2012, 08:44:23 AM
thanks very much Peter  -  popping out to Ardingly for an hour or two for a rummage (since it's only a fiver on the second day) - and will read your details when I return.
Presumably I'd only get to see the Glass Cone article by being a member of the Glass Association - unless it can be bought as a 'separate'? 
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: oldglassman on March 07, 2012, 10:25:02 AM
Hi ,
          I am pretty sure that copies of the Glass Cone are available to non members at a small cost , they were available to buy at the recent Cambridge Glass Fair,
   btw , Lynn glass , with the rings are 18thc , not 17th , c 1740 ish to 1800 ish,although there is still some doubt if Kings lynn was actually the place of manufacture of these very individual glasses,there being no solid archaeological evidence available.

Cheers ,
              Peter.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: ju1i3 on March 07, 2012, 11:10:05 AM
Copies of the Glass Cone are 4.50 (www.glassassociation.org.uk). A year's membership which includes 4 issues of the Cone and a copy of the Journal every other year is 20.
Title: Re: 17th century English free blown footed flask
Post by: Paul S. on March 07, 2012, 02:31:11 PM
thanks for pointing out correct dating re Lynn glasses - and I will follow up the matter of individual copies of the Glass Cone - thanks for the link Julie. :)