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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Gary on May 10, 2012, 08:49:21 PM

Title: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 10, 2012, 08:49:21 PM
Seen this item on ebay, (IMHO) it does not look right for  Vasart and certainly is not Monart. What do other members think.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vasart-Monart-Ink-Bottle-very-rare-example-Salvador-Ysart-/261021426864?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item3cc616e4b0
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on May 10, 2012, 09:15:54 PM
Certainly interesting. Definitely early Ysart canes.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 11, 2012, 10:56:21 AM
The shape looks right - and it's a jig-saw of bits holding itself together somehow - also typical of Monart.  ;D
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 11, 2012, 11:44:33 AM
The shape looks right - and it's a jig-saw of bits holding itself together somehow - also typical of Monart.  ;D
Do you mean the shape looks right for Monart, Vasart or both. There is no shape exactly like that one in the Monart catalogues, the nearest is shape HE, which has steeper incline from shoulder to base.
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 11, 2012, 11:47:36 AM
I didn't check catalogues, I'm afraid - just that I've seen and handled a lot of scarce pieces of Monart over the years and it just looks right to me - for one of the scarcer bits.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 11, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
I have been collecting and researching Monart for the last six years and one thing I have learned if a shape is not in the Monart catalogue be very sceptical of said piece. I know very little about the canes used in the ebay pieces, but the positioning of the canes are poor, they are up and down and not in a straight row and not what one would except in a piece of Monart.
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 11, 2012, 04:14:02 PM
I was involved with my brother collecting the stuff with a vengeance, starting about 12 years ago....
I've also learned never to say "never".
I'm certain I've seen this shape at my brother's, with this squat base.
I agree, the decor looks a bit...... odd, quirky even, certainly not typical.


But I was very surprised by some of the colours I saw in Perth Museum - have you seen the lampshade yet?  The thin white, ceiling bowl-shaped one, with jagged spatters of colours around the edge?
I wouldn't have attributed that to Monart in a month of sundays!

The bit about it being a jig-saw, holding together with a wing and a prayer says MONART to me, very very loudly.


I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but my guts think it's absolutely right and I trust my guts.
I rather like it. If you don't want it, I might have a bash (whoops, bid - bash would not do it any good!) ;D
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 13, 2012, 12:58:54 PM
The vendor has revised the description by adding the following statement
  "Hello, With so much interest in this bottle I have done some more research.
Indeed this bottle is a very early example dating from the 1920s or 1930s. A similar bottle, size, shape & design was made by Salvador for a member of the Moncrieff family & is in the Moncrieff collection.  Not to be confused with with later additions which are smaller in size & have a different design".   
I have emailed the vendor asking him where he sourced the information regarding a "Moncrieff collection".
In all the time I have been researching Monart glass I have not seen it mentioned in any literature or spoken to any collector who has mentioned it, this is not to say one did not exist.
Has the vendor being reading this thread
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 13, 2012, 01:30:02 PM
It's very highly likely the seller has been reading this thread.  ;D

So we can be sure to mention ths dreadful DAMAGE which will seriously imapct on any price realised - no matter how scarce., very LOUDLY.
 8)

And the bit about "with so much interest" well, yes, there's a bid on it.  ::) I imagine there may be a lot of watchers too - very likely because of this thread.

Looking at the colours... is there any possibility this was a Jesus Brasso bit??????
(a bit tongue in cheek there!)
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on May 13, 2012, 02:41:35 PM
Quote
Looking at the colours... is there any possibility this was a Jesus Brasso bit???
(a bit tongue in cheek there!)
Sue!!! Don't do that - it will cost me even more to buy it now. :)
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 13, 2012, 02:52:52 PM
I wasn't being serious.
The first time i heard his name, with regard to an..... exhuberant basket, I thought "Jesus Brasso" was what somebody exclaimed when they saw the piece!
And who says you're going to buy it anyway? Hmmmm?
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 14, 2012, 07:07:02 PM
I received a reply from the vendor re " Moncrieff collection"
Hello *****, Yasart(sic) Moncrieff glass reference book at our local library. Thanks & good luck if you are having a bid.
The only book that I know that has been published on Monart is YSART GLASS, co authors I Turner and F Andrews and that does not mention anything about a " Moncrieff collection".
I have emailed the vendor asking for title of said reference book and author.
(***** I have deleted my ebay name)
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 16, 2012, 06:50:33 PM
I received a reply from the vendor re title and author of reference book mentioning the "Moncrieff collection" and this particular shape of ink bottle.
The actual info apart from a basic google search the info is published in an exhibiton catalogue of British Glass between the Wars page 61 item 75.
As I have not got a copy of that catalogue I can't verify this information. Does any member have a copy of "British Glass between the Wars" by Roger Dodsworth, if so could you let me know what
item 75 on page 61 is and if there is any mention of a "Moncrieff collection".
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 16, 2012, 07:11:44 PM
Well there is a Monart ink bottle on page 61, no 75 and it is said to have been made for a friend of the Moncrieffs by Salvador. No mention of Moncrieff collection and apart from being an ink bottle with canes and a bit of blue and yellow no resemblance (even in black and white). One looks like it was made by a master - the other...
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 16, 2012, 08:41:50 PM
Thanks Christine for the information, that certainly puts doubt on the vendors description of the said piece.
I have emailed Sandra Martin, the assistant curator at Perth Museum, if any of the large Monart collection they have was donated by the Moncrieff family and if the museum has any information on this so called "Moncrieff collection".
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on May 17, 2012, 10:21:11 PM
For reference:

The Inkwell illustrated in British Glass Between The Wars, is shown here (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/Inkwells/Salvador.htm) (and that page is part of my article (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/Inkwells/Inkwells.htm) on some variations of Ysart (or not) millefiori inkwells).

That inkwell was formerly in the Ian Turner collection. When I spoke with Ian about it, he confirmed that the description in the BGBTW catalogue was indeed based on hearsay (hence the use of "said to have been" wording) and we both considered that 1950s may well have been a more accurate dating rather than 1930s.

The BGBTW catalogue described it as Monart shape code ZG, which I believe is not an inkwell. The ZG data states only one size, 3.5 inch high, but the inkwell is 4.5 inch and the body has a much "squatter" appearance than the ZG bottle, which I think is a perfume not an inkwell. In fact, I think that there are no inkwells shown in the Monart catalogues, but that inkwells were variations based on at least one of several Monart shapes.

I have seen inkwells, by Paul Ysart and Salvador Ysart / "Vasart", that could easily have been based on any of the Monart shapes: T, WB, HE, IE, ZG, SI, EJ.  What I have never seen so far is an Ysart inkwell with the main body section having surface decoration.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 18, 2012, 10:40:15 AM
It's got a massive crack across the base - not just at the top.....  ;D ;D ;D

How many folk actually like it?
Do your guts say "this is a fabby bit of Ysart glass and I need it ...for the aesthetics"?  8)

My guts say, "It's a fabby bit of Ysart glass."
I don't feel a need for much more than that - though it would be icing on the cake.

(rather than are fussing over catalogue shapes and records - though I do understand why)
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on May 19, 2012, 06:44:49 PM
I personally think it is a hideous piece of glass and not up to the standard of Monart glass.
If you want to learn about Monart and recognise it one must study the catalogues, if nothing else it has helped me in recognising fake Monart.
GARY
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 20, 2012, 09:49:52 AM
I prefer handling the glass.  ;D
But I don't collect Ysart glass and I've always gone just by my guts and whether or not I like it.
The "fake" stuff looks fake. The colours are wrong, the textures in them are wrong........

and I do know that a bowler hat shape isn't in the catalogues  8)
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 09, 2012, 03:43:40 PM
 ;D
My brother has just pointed out to me that the shape of the bottle in question IS in the catalogues. Monart shape HE.

http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Page06.htm
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on June 09, 2012, 08:31:58 PM
Yes, I agree that shape HE is what it most resembles. But its size (large) is not in the Monart catalogue. If it was made in the Monart years, then it is a new entry for "size variation". If it was made in the Ysart Brothers (Vasart) years then it was "along the lines of the HE bottle".

So, who bought such an ugly thing with cracks all over it? Oh yeah, it was me ... ;D

And it arrived with even more damage! Sadly it was posted with the stopper (which is heavy) taped into the neck and when opened, the whole neck was separate from the body. There are also two additional major cracks in the side of the body that was not shown in any of the listing photos.

I have settled the matter of the additional damage with the seller so this is not a problem that needs comment here.

For me it is still an interesting piece academically because it is the first Ysart bottle (which is not an inkwell) that I have seen decorated solely with millefiori canes.

The striped appearance to the neck is formed by stretching the upper row of canes from the shoulder and applying a slight twist. The effect is like an "experimental" form of the striping in the regular Vasart (1946 - 1956) inkwells. The interior has a layer of off-white (grey) which, due to the blowing, is more solid at the neck, then more sparse at the body and more solid again at the base. But it does not seem to be the fairly solid appearance of the off-white used in some early Monart pieces, but I have only seen a very few of those, so cannot comment much on that aspect.

However, the same type of (powdery) grey is known in some paperweights which I believe were made by Salvador Ysart. That may, or may not, be a help in shifting the dating of some of the paperweights. Much more research is required.

I will soon be purchasing some decent glue and spending some time doing "museum style restoration" - just for the fun of it and to try to preserve an interesting piece that might at some stage assist with the ongoing research into "Ysart oddities".

And for the record, under uv light, the clear glass fluoresces like other Ysart items from Moncrieff's and Ysart Brothers (Vasart), so it is certainly not Vasart Ltd or later.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 10, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
 ;D
It is NOT ugly. It is beautiful, perhaps not in the pretty sort of sense; it is ART.
It is something very, very special.  8)
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: SimonD on June 10, 2012, 10:30:26 AM
I'm always happy to own an unusual object, even if it requires some TLC. You've got a very nice item.

A few years ago I bought a nice period Baccarat weight from an auction house, who kindly offered to ship it to me. It arrived in a Jiffy Bag with no extra packaging or bubble wrap around it!
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on June 13, 2012, 09:23:01 PM
While agreeing the perfume bottle resembles the Monart HE shape but there are major differences, the main one being the HE has a steeper incline from the middle to the base, which gives Kevin's bottle a more plumper look, the neck the neck on Kevin's bottle appears longer (would need Kevin measure his to confirm one way or another).
This is some photos of my recent purchase of a Monart HE perfume bottle from eBay for the princely sum of one pound and twenty one pence(postage cost more), there is of course a lot of damage the stopper is stuck, cracks to the neck and two other cracks. The height is 4 3/4" from base to top of neck, which is size code V1+.
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 14, 2012, 09:24:24 AM
 :)
They're hand made, not mould-blown, such minor variations are only to be expected.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on June 16, 2012, 01:51:29 AM
For info ...

The three images below include size details of most of the main features. To keep the images uncluttered, additional size details are given here:

Thickness of glass at the neck = 7 mm; 5/16 inch (measured at break point)
Outside Diameter of Neck Rim = 44 mm; 1 3/4 inch
Outside Diameter of Neck = 33 mm; 1 5/16 inch

For the photographs the upper neck and inserted stopper, still wrapped in the clear sticky tape used for shipping, have been carefully balanced on the lower neck. Because of this, the appearance of the neck and stopper are slightly compromised.

[Edited 16 June to correct stopper diameter size in second image/]
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on June 16, 2012, 02:04:24 AM
and more info ...

The four photos below give visual comparisons of the oddity bottle with a variety of Inkwells, all believed to have been made by Salvador Ysart, and a pre-war Monart IE shape perfume bottle.

Not only is it very clear that the cane decorated bottle is much larger than any of the others, but the Inkwells vary amongst themselves with regard to detailed shapes and sizes. This seems quite normal with these items, which are basically non-catalogue pieces (if there ever was a catalogue for Ysart Brothers work).

Looking at the IE perfume bottle, compared with the cane decorated oddity, it is obvious that the volume of the oddity is far greater than that of the standard perfume. Would such a large bottle have been intended for perfume? Or was it perhaps a water bottle or decanter?
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 16, 2012, 09:51:04 AM
Cologne?
A liqueur?
Does it have to be for anything?
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on June 16, 2012, 09:30:11 PM
From Kevins post on the sizes on his bottle, it clearly shows major differences in sizes between the Monart HE and Kevins Ysart bottle. The main ones are: the neck on HE is 21mm and on Kevins 27mm, the diameter at widest point on HE 117mm on Kevin's 139mm, the height from base to shoulder on HE 53mm on Kevins 71mm and the flat base section on the HE is 70mm and on Kevins is 75mm. With this in mind (and knowing Monart is hand blown and not mould blown). I am in no doubt that Kevins Ysart bottle is not the Monart shape HE.
If you put the photo of the HE and Kevins bottle next to each other there is an obvious difference in the proportions between them.
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on June 16, 2012, 11:48:13 PM
Fascinating.

With due regard to the effects of the different photos (angles, distances from lens, etc.) ...

If we compare the oddity bottle with Gary's and also the actual item in the Monart catalogue for shape HE (http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Page06.htm), there are differences between all of them.

The oddity bottle clearly has the least "rounded and tapered" shape to the body. Gary's has the most "rounded and tapered" body shape. And the one in the catalogue is somewhere between the two.

All of the observations in this thread are relevant for detailed analysis. But unless we can examine several examples together under the same conditions, we have no way to be sure of anything about the precise shapes and proportions.

However, taking account of the number of clearly differing variations shown in the ysartglass.com site for many Monart shapes, can we be certain the the oddity bottle is not a Monart HE variation?

Personally, I think it could be either Monart or Ysart Brothers (Vasart), but I am still of the opinion that it was based on the basic shape of Monart HE.
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on June 21, 2012, 07:27:14 PM
The type of base on Ysart glass is one helpful way of putting a time span on when a certain type of base was used. http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/IDguide1.htm
The type (one) on Kevins bottle was in use only on early Monart (circa 1924-1929) and used through out the Vasart period.
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: Gary on July 25, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
This is a quote from myself in earlier part of this thread " I am in no doubt that Kevins Ysart bottle is not the Monart shape HE. ", I would like to retract that statement, further research into the variance of particular Monart shapes, it has shown me there can be a wide variance in dimensions from two pieces with the same shape and size code, which opens up the possibility of Kevins bottle being the shape HE.
I  still believe this was not a regular Monart production piece, for the reasons give earlier in this thread "the positioning of the canes are poor, they are up and down and not in a straight row and not what one would except in a piece of Monart"
Gary
Title: Re: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?
Post by: KevinH on July 25, 2012, 10:28:42 PM
Thanks for that update, Gary.

I hope that one day we will see something that helps to tell the true story of this bottle. :)