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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on September 09, 2012, 05:54:55 PM

Title: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on September 09, 2012, 05:54:55 PM
A Sowerby creamer clearly marked with trade mark and date lozenge for 31 May 1877 but this one is also marked DEPOSE.

I can remember a thread about pieces being maked PATENT but cannot remember seeing an early Sowerby piece marked DEPOSE.

Roy
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: neilh on September 09, 2012, 07:08:44 PM
Found this comment on eBay:

Occasionally in the world of antiques, you may come across a mark, DEP, which could mean either Depose or Deponiert. This mark is commonly found on German or French bisque dolls, celluloid,  porcelain, jewelry, glass or metal goods. Dep stands for the German word Deponiert which means registered, or copyright. Dep is also a shortened form of Depose which is French for registered.Without knowing a manufacturer or country of origin, it is safe to say that if your item is marked DEP, it is most likely of French or German manufacture.
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on September 11, 2012, 01:23:35 PM
and the answer is...............if you look in Slack, page 45, there is a black and white pic. with the following caption.........
'Rare butter dish' bearing the word 'DEPOSE'.   Design registered by Sowerby's 31 August 1877.  Trade marked.    Length 6.5/8" (16.9 cm).   Manufactured in Gateshead for the continental market'.
Judging by the similarities of the handles of the butter dish and Roy's creamer, also the frosted looking finish, then it would seem that both pieces are from the same suite.
Slack also adds (page 30) that "by 1889 the company had showrooms in Hamburg, Brussels and Paris".

Ref.      'English Pressed Glass' 1830 - 1900   -   Raymond Slack   -   1987.             Essential, if you collect pressed glass. ;)
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: auliya on August 19, 2013, 07:46:26 AM
I just acquired a covered dish in this pattern, and I was searching for any information when I found this thread.  Not sure if it is a butter dish or not, perhaps a bit small? It has exactly the same registration markings except for 9th May 1877. It measures 6.5 inches by 4.5 inches overall and about 3.5 inches to the top of the lid. Would it be the same as the one mention in the book by Raymond Slack?
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on August 19, 2013, 10:16:49 AM
glad that you've posted again on this matter - gives a chance to put right some possible errors which your comments have thrown up :)

firstly, are you sure it's the 9th of May on your lozenge - might there be the chance that you're looking at the parcel No., rather than the date.............there doesn't appear to be a registration from Sowerby on the 9th of May 1877, but there were three on the 31st, all of which were parcel 9?

Very unfortunately, it didn't occur to any of us to quote the Rd. No. for Roy's creamer, which might have helped avoid what I believe to be an error in Slack's book.
Roy quoted 31st May (and I believe yours will be the same date), and having now looked at the Kew images for that date, and cross referenced to some extent with Thompson/Slack/Cottle and Sheilagh Murray, it seems that Sowerby made three Registrations on that date.
These are:

No. 310595  -  (Cottle's 'angular vase'  -  Slack's 'rare butter dish')...........appears to be identical to this most recently posted item (factory pattern 1224)
     
      310596  -   similar design to 595 but smaller lidded item (possibly a lidded sugar) with pedestal and foot  -  another of Cottle's 'angular' items (factory pattern 1231).     
     
      310597  -  A spill vase (in Vitro-Porcelain possibly) with parrot and tree in moulded relief (factory pattern 1217)                 
      This last item is entirely unrelated, and so will be ignored for the remainder of this note.
     
       (The above factory pattern Nos. are taken from Cottle, who states that all three are shown on page 3 of Sowerby Pattern Book No. IX        (June 1882).              Whilst it's true that page 3 of the Pattern Book does show these three factory Nos., the shape of both 1224 and 1231 appear unrelated to the Kew images for Rd. Nos. 595 and 595.
Of course, this might be an example of Sowerby Registering the design only, and not the shape.             Looking at Pattern Book IX, you can see why Cottle keeps saying 'angular'  -  did this author look at the Kew Board of Trade images - or did he look only at Sowerby archive material?            Had he looked at the Kew images, then we might have assumed his comments to have been otherwise.

Roy's creamer (for which I've yet to find a Kew image) plus 595 and 595 above, are all related by design - with this short reeded effect around the edges and the stippled/frosted ground  -  it's always possibly that Sowerby didn't Register an image of the creamer, although from what I've seen other factories appear to have included whole suits of shapes where the pattern was identical.           I may have missed seeing the creamer, so will look again.

So...........we appear to have a suit of table items.........a creamer, a possible butter and a (possible) lidded sugar  -  and there are other Sowerby items around that period that have a similar reeded edge with frosted ground that could be design related.

Coming back to the probable error in Slack, it does seem that the date he quotes is questionable, especially as he shows nothing corresponding to this in his list of Rd. Nos. at the back of his book.         I'm also unable to see a Sowerby Registration for 31st of August in any of the other books. 
It's a shame also that the matter is made more difficult to unravel by the fact that Cottle's references are to images of pieces (from the Pattern Book) that don't match with the corresponding images from the Kew Rd. Nos.

I'll post pix of the Kew images for Rd. Nos. 310595/6/7 shortly  -  from which it can be seen that this butter appears as No. 310595.

sorry this is long winded  -  it's a pain correcting these matters - so many references to check etc., and so many more manholes for the unwary to fall down ;)

Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: auliya on August 19, 2013, 10:37:56 AM
Thank you Paul. I am embarrassed to say I mucked that up and you are correct, the date on my piece is the 31st May 1877, 9 is the parcel number. Thank you also for the information - I look forward to seeing your images :-)
regards
Auliya
Brisbane Australia
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on August 19, 2013, 02:51:46 PM
no problem Auliya :)       

Here then are images from the National Archives of the U.K., for Registrations Nos. 310595/96 and 97 dated 31st May 1877.

I sense things might not be entirely clear - having now linked Simon Cottle's details of the Sowerby Factory Pattern Nos. to these Rd. Nos.       

As I've already mentioned, the accompanying pix from Kew (relating to the first two Rd's.), do not tally with the shape of Simon Cottle's factory pattern nos. that he relates to the same Rd. Nos.            Cottle speaks of items of 'angular' design, which as you can see are different entirely to the Kew pix.

Can however tell you that since my last note I've looked at Glen & Stephen Thistlewood's CD Volume Three - 'A Celebration Of Sowerby', and notice that your item is shown on page 6 of 'Illustrated Pattern Book No. XI - 1885 - page 6, and is listed under butters with factory pattern No. 1221  - so no doubt as to its intended use.
With regard to Kew Rd. 310596, this is also shown in Pattern Book XI (once as an open sugar on page 49, then again as a lidded sugar on page 59), and on both occasions carries the factory pattern No. 1221.               This would suggest that Sowerby were registering the design only and not the shape on the 31st of May 1877.
I wonder if we can persuade Glen to re-issue her CD's to incorporate the corresponding Registration Nos. ;)

This doesn't make us any wiser as to the Rd. No. of Roy's creamer - although it might not be unreasonable to suggest it also carried the factory pattern no. 1221.            I've looked through the catalogues, but not confident of seeing it  -  it may have been an item dropped by the time of the 1885 factory catalogue (the start of Glen's Sowerby period), having been Registered originally in 1877  -  might not have been successful  -  really don't know.

Neither can I find pictures of Simon Cottle's two small 'angular' pieces with factory pattern Nos. 1224 and 1231 any later than Factory Book IX dated 1882  -  maybe these had also gone by the time of Book XI in 1885.             Looking at drawings of both in Book IX, they don't appear remotely to have the reeded borders with frosted/stippled ground, so I'm unsure why Simon Cottle linked these two with Rd. Nos. 310595 and 96.

Don't know whether this has made things any easier or not.............I don't know if you have any of the commercial books/CD's I've mentioned  -if you collect Sowerby they are essential I'd suggest, although even with them things are still confusing..........too many cooks perhaps.  :)

Anyone ................  feel free to criticise, comment, praise, yawn, pick holes in etc., as you wish. :)
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: bfg on August 19, 2013, 04:57:42 PM
excellent points of reference Paul, many thanks for sharing -particularly the Kew archives as I doubt I'll ever get the chance to visit.

Really must chase down a CD at some point, I note many people use it here.

Mel x
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on August 19, 2013, 07:36:22 PM
hello Mel.              The Sowerby CDs from Glen and Stephen Thistlewood are essential if you collect pressed glass, and they are a wonderful source of information - a great piece of work and of benefit to many of us.           Well worth getting, although I'm not sure if they are still available.
The pressed glass factories from the north east of England, Sowerby and Davidson in particular, have been documented and researched far more than most, and I get the feeling there is perhaps less interest in them now than say 20 years ago.
At the moment collectors seem more keen on the smaller factories from the Manchester area, and it may be true that there is less known about those, so any good pieces you find do send in your pix :)
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: agincourt17 on August 19, 2013, 08:07:06 PM

Quote
I wonder if we can persuade Glen to re-issue her CD's to incorporate the corresponding Registration Nos

Perhaps this may help (and it's free!):

I have started a whole gallery of reference photographs of Sowerby glass items ordered by Sowerby pattern number, cross-referenced (where appropriate or available) with their registered design numbers, registration dates, and Sowerby pattern book references (E&OE) at:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=1001

So far there are 290 images, and I am trying to add more all the time.

Glass Queries Gallery members please feel free to add more images, but non-members can refer to the gallery anyway.

In addition, for those Sowerby designs that were registered, I have endeavoured to add their RD numbers to the GMB RD database gallery at
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=763
and have cross-referenced  with details of the Sowerby pattern numbers and Sowerby pattern book.

In both cases, there are many photos of Sowerby’s registered and unregistered designs that don’t appear on the Thistlewood CD-ROMs.

Fred.
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: agincourt17 on August 19, 2013, 08:14:22 PM
Just to fill in some of the gaps in the discussion (but whether clarifying or confusing, I’m not quite sure):

Here are photos of Sowerby pattern 1231 (with lozenge for 31 May 1877 – Parcel 9, to which Cottle allocates RD 310596) – a slag glass flower trough
(permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by Lynne Clark)
and Sowerby pattern 1217 (the parrot spill vase) with the same lozenge (but RD 310597)
(permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by Cowans Auctions).

I don’t have a photo of Sowerby pattern 1224 (supposedly also with lozenge for 31 May 1877 –Parcel 9), basically very similar to pattern 1225 (an unregistered design)
(permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by shumakka)
but is triangular in cross section rather than rectangular.

Fred

Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on August 19, 2013, 09:03:22 PM
I'll digest your comments tomorrow morning Fred.............   but just to say I think we should be careful when linking Simon Cottle's choice of factory pattern Nos. (i.e. 1224 and 1231)  to Rd. Nos. 310595 and 310596.                 You'll see from my earlier comments/pix that the Kew records are not showing these particular factory patterns - they appear instead to show pattern no. 1221 only for both Rd. Nos.

Factory pattern No. 1217 seems to be o.k., and the image of the parrot as shown in the pattern book corresponds with the Kew picture for Rd. No. 310597.

Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: agincourt17 on August 19, 2013, 09:31:34 PM
Pattern 1231 definitely corresponds to the illustration on page 3 of pattern book IX – 1882, and has a clear lozenge for 31 May 1877 – Parcel 9, so the pattern number and registration date correspond to Cottle’s attribution, irrespective of the RD number. I have photos of other examples with exactly the same lozenge.

As to pattern 1224, I don’t have a photo reference for it, so am not sure if it normally bears a lozenge of not. (Oddly though, page 3 of pattern book IX – 1882 also ascribes pattern number 1224 to a vase bearing a Walter Crane-inspired  design “cross patch” , though this design is almost certainly unregistered – never, to my knowledge, having been found bearing a lozenge).

Here’s a photo of open sugar Sowerby pattern 1221 (as on page 49 of their pattern book XI – 1885) alongside a creamer similar to Roy’s example in the opening post.
(Permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by Tracie Opie).

The illustration of the open sugar in the pattern book indicates that it is from a registered design (and indeed it is, as it bears not only the Sowerby peacock trademark but also the lozenge for 31 May 1887 – Parcel 9), as might be expected, and it obviously corresponds to the design representation for RD 310596 so kindly provided by Paul. (I’m not sure if this open sugar had “DEPOSE” on it or not).

The illustration of the covered sugar version of Sowerby pattern 1221 on page 59 of their pattern book XI – 1885 also indicates that it too is from a registered design (which we now know to be RD 310596). I don’t yet have a photo of a 1221 covered sugar but I fully expect that it too would be marked with the lozenge for 31 May 1877 – Parcel 9.

I’ve also checked pattern book XI – 1885 and, as Paul says, the creamer does not seem to appear in the pattern book alongside the sugar bowls, but I too think it would be a pretty solid bet to ascribe Sowerby pattern number 1221 to it (though I’m not sure which RD number – 310595 or 310596 -  the lozenge corresponds to).

Fred.
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Sid on August 20, 2013, 12:42:35 AM
Perhaps this may help (and it's free!):

I have started a whole gallery of reference photographs of Sowerby glass items ordered by Sowerby pattern number, cross-referenced (where appropriate or available) with their registered design numbers, registration dates, and Sowerby pattern book references (E&OE)

Awesome job, Fred!

Sid
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: auliya on August 20, 2013, 03:46:06 AM
Thank you Fred, those links are so helpful!

I thought I would take a photo of the markings on the butter dish I have - both base and lid are marked the same. I hope that might be of some help to someone :-)

cheers
Auliya
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: Paul S. on August 20, 2013, 08:49:26 AM
Reference your first paragraph Fred............crossed wires, I think :)            I don't doubt for a moment that Sowerby patterns 1224 and 1231 carry diamond lozenges which will date them to 31st May 1877 - also that these lozenges are found on Cottle;s 'angular' shaped pieces.

I was simply drawing attention to the fact that there is an obvious case of confusion somewhere along the line insofar as........... Simon Cottle links these Sowerby patterns 1224 and 1231 to the Kew Board of Trade Registrations Nos. 310595 and 310596 - this is wrong, and the objects are completely unrelated.             
His linking of these is misleading to anyone who is involved in cross-checking Registration Nos. with factory pattern data.         Much time is wasted due to the fact that the Rd. images at Kew do not match images of the Factory Patterns  -  despite carrying the same No. in Simon Cottle's book.
The bottom line is simply that these two Board of Trade Registration Nos. were not allocated to these two particular factory shapes/patterns.
My earlier suggestion was that, possibly, Simon Cottle had not seen the Kew images and had simply worked from Sowerby archive material - in which case perhaps we should blame Sowerby for sending the wrong images to the Board of Trade at the time of Registration.  ;)

Unlike yourself, I don't spend that much time involved with C19 pressed glass - neither am I that familiar with other data in Simon Cottle's book, so have no idea if this mis-linking is a one off, or if there might be other instances.
From my experience of taking snaps at Kew, it's apparent that Sowerby's Registrations with the Board of Trade during the latter part of the C19 were prolific to say the least - and so very obvious from looking at the size of the factory's catalogues, I just wish they hadn't used that purple ink that tends to fade with time :)

P.S.     wish you every success with your project of 'gallery of reference photographs of Sowerby glass items'
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: agincourt17 on August 20, 2013, 03:57:43 PM
Point taken, Paul, about ascribing Sowerby pattern numbers to a particular RD number within a design registration bundle without checking the design representation. 

Reliance on Thompson, Slack or Cottle alone (or in combination) always left almost as many queries unresolved as resolved. The only definitive way to check is to have simultaneous access to a a Sowerby piece (or at least decent photos of it), Sowerby pattern number, relevant pattern book illustration, alphanumeric lozenge details, and full registration details (including representation) as at Kew.

Until you started providing the design representations etc. from Kew, that was the main missing link for most researchers interested in Sowerby designs. As is already obvious in this thread, access to all the pertinent identifiers is capable of not only definitively attributing a piece but is also capable of revealing anomalies or longstanding misattributions.

I will amend the details for Sowerby pattern 1231 on the Glass Queries Gallery databases in the light of the information from these postings.

I’m sure there must be more anomlies or errors in the ascription of individual RD numbers to Sowerby pieces with known pattern numbers (and there are certainly problems in ascribing or collating known Sowerby pattern numbers with particular RD numbers within registration parcels corresponding to particular registration lozenges). I know that neilH has had similar kinds of problems with some of the Manchester glass registrations, trying to reconcile actual pieces with their registration descriptions or design representations. Hopefully, with better access to precise registration details as at Kew, many more of the queries posed on the GMB can reach a satisfactory conclusion.

Fred.
Title: Re: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE
Post by: bfg on August 20, 2013, 09:41:44 PM
thanks Paul, will do......and Fred, just had a peak - well done !