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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: paradisetrader on September 29, 2004, 11:15:24 PM
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I wonder if anyone can help with this Ice Blue Carnival Bowl in a crackle pattern ?
An american friend has confirmed that is the correct color name which I believe is relatively rare & says its def not american.
I just bought it beacuse I like it but would like to find out who made it if poss.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/avalonsmile/Researching/CopyofGarage114.jpg)
The rim is slightly irregular but purposely so - kind of knobbly.
The pattern stands proud on the exterior and the interior is smooth.
No mold lines apparent. There is a base rim within which a depression made to like a smoothed pontil !!!
Its 8 " dia x 2.5" high.
Thak you
Peter
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I can tell you what is ISN'T a lot easier than what it IS.
As your friend said, it isn't old, Classic (American) Carnival Glass. Nor is it English Carnival Glass. The color is a sort of ice blue, though maybe light or pastel blue would be more correct. Is the piece "frosted" (acid etched finish)? I can't tell from your photo. In fact I can't actually see your photo at all now as the link is down.
The pattern appears to be moulded - and yes, it is a sort of tree of life or crackle style pattern. I have a red jardiniere with a similar random pattern on it that I found in Stockholm about five years ago. That piece is also iridized.
If the item has a pontil mark, then it isn't strictly speaking Carnival Glass. If, on the other hand, the base is ground flat (having been "stuck up" in manufacture) then it could be classed as Carnival.
None of this helps us with the maker though. I'm afraid I do not know the answer to this. It could be a European item, despite the fact that this pale blue color is not (yet) known to have been produced in Carnival by the European makers.
Is there any chance of seeing the photo again - and perhaps you giving a bit more info on the item re. the base (ground?) and the question of acid treatment?
Glen
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Hi Glen
Firstly let me thank you for your time and attention. I noticed you posting elsewhere, lloked at your website and was hoping you might see this post and respond.
Colour - The only way to tell the base color on this piece is looking sideways through the base. As all other areas are coated with the irridescence (unlike a carival vase for example).
I have compared it to pics of several Ice Blue items on Ebay and it seems comparable.
The pic you saw didnt give a correct impression. I haven't found it at all easy to photograoh well !
The base colour is very pale but definately an icy blue. The irridescence is also very subtle in real life. The photo tends to emphasise it.
frosted" (acid etched finish)? > NO
IT IS moulded sorry to confuse - I see so little glass with a base rim that it just looked as though it was pretending to be a ground & polished pontil between the stand rim - but it isn;t. Its just that the molding appears to have been done very well - carefully - I can see no moulded lines at all and I have looked very closely,
I am wondering if it could be Bohemian / Czech as Ive seen this sort of random crackle pattern on Palme Konig vases.
Hope this helps - Thanks again#Peter
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Hi Peter - wow FAST :lol: Many thanks for posting the pic again.
Czech seems very possible - maybe other readers could comment on this. It certainly doesn't appear to be from any of the regular / well known European Carnival manufacturers.
The color is a moot point. Strictly speaking - in Carnival terms - ice blue is light blue glass, iridized and frosted. It is the frosting (acid treatment) that gives rise to the "ice" part in the name "ice blue". If it's not frosty then - strictly speaking - it's not ice blue, but is instead a pastel /light blue.
However, there are shades of opinion (almost as many as shades of color :shock: ) regarding this. Some consider that the frost effect need not be present.
I'd be interested to hear what others think.
Glen
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Frosting - there IS a kind of frosted effect but it seems to come from a roughness in the pattern (which is raised - on the underside) ie its NOT smooth between the veins but not as even as I would imagine acid etching would be. But maybe Im wrong on that score. Maybe lack of experinece and only having touched satin glass with that kind of teatment.
In about an hour or so when my batteries have recharged I will take pics of the underside which may shed more light on the subject.
The fascination of this piece for me lies with its subtlety. So much carnival is brash and (sorry !) downright vulgar. I have very few pieces - only 6 or so - all quite simple in one way or another.
This moring at Bermonsey I saw and enormous frilly Marigold bowl on stand - almost exactly the same as one which appeared on Flog It and it was priced similarly to what that pice fetched at auction - ie £40.
But I have seen some exquisite pieces on Ebay - some not so simple in fact quite complex ....Persian plates come to mind - if Ive got the name right - and they fetch well into the $100s.
So its quite a narrow part of the carnival feast Im concentrating on and which interests me and I am pleased that this one has sparked your interest enough to reply with such attention to detail and I thank you again.
Incidentally I note that very few pieces of carnival on Ebay UK are attributed as to maker. Is there a book concentrating on British Carnival Glass ? European ? Simpler , subtle pieces ? :)
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Hello again Peter. You raise a few interesting points that I’d like to comment on.
First, you note (with regard to Carnival) that you feel “so much is brash and (sorry !) downright vulgar.” Gasp :oops: Actually, I take no offence at your opinion at all :lol: . I agree, some Carnival is not pretty. As with all forms and types of glass, some examples are good to look at and some are not.
You mentioned “simpler subtle pieces”. The pastels (ice colors like ice blue, ice green, pastel marigold, white etc.) would probably fit into that category. These were mainly produced by the US manufacturers, with Northwood being the King of these more delicate shades. The Swedish firm Eda Glasbruks also produced some delicately colored Carnival, but this is seldom seen.
With most Carnival, it is that vividness of color, combined with beauty of design and exquisiteness of shape, which usually captivates the collector. Not everyone likes it. That’s fine by me - less competition for me at Fairs and Auctions :lol: .
You also mentioned the Persian pattern you saw on eBay. I think you might be referring to Fenton’s Persian Medallion design. It’s an intricate, lacy pattern, inspired by Persian motifs and executed in a style imitative of a complex embroidery design. It’s seen at its best on a flat plate, when the iridescence shimmers over its surface, highlighting the elaborate cameo design.
You also asked - “I note that very few pieces of carnival on Ebay UK are attributed as to maker. Is there a book concentrating on British Carnival Glass ? European ? Simpler , subtle pieces ?” The answer is yes, our book “A Century of Carnival Glass”. It doesn’t concentrate purely on British Carnival - it covers the output of the European and South American makers too (also the Indian ones). The main producer of English Carnival was Sowerby, but other companies (eg Canning Town Glass Company) are also known to have produced small amounts.
A fair amount of (“unknown maker”) marigold items that are found in the UK are often vaguely attributed as “English”. Not so. Many of them are in fact Czech or possibly German.
Finally, you touched on values. Carnival is a fickle creature! With well over a thousand patterns documented, and 60 or more acknowledged colors, in goodness-knows-how-many shapes - it’s important to get the right combination in order to achieve the real highs. “Rare but who cares” is an oft-heard cry :roll: .
At the top end of the scale are the (take a deep breath) items like the two plates that sold on eBay a couple of weeks back. Each one took around $25,000. Yes, I did type that correctly. And the highest publicly recorded price for Carnival so far has been around $87,000 (the current estimate of the value of the item - an aqua opal punch set - is around $95,000).
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Thanks Glen
for the valuable and interesting info. My understanding of the Carnival market is begining to dawn.
I did know that UK did import a lot of glass from Bohemia from as far back as the turn of the century untill WW2 so for canrival to be included makes sense.
I will look out for Northwood but would there be much of it in UK ? Did we import much / any from the States ? And having met some Swedish dealers yesterday I am toying with the idea of a trip there and will remember Eda.
You certainly know you subject and speak lovingly of it but with eyes open - great combo - and a pleaure to read. I want that book - South America ! India !! Amazing ! Hopefully it will have some pieces which we are likely to find as well as the top items we can only dream about ! Does it have guidelines as to desirability ? such as which base colours and patterns to look out for ? How does the Sowerby compare with others in terms of quality ? When did large scale production of Carnival cease ?
Yes the Persian you describe sounds like the one I saw. Not my usual cuppa tea but absolutely stunning. I seem to remember it going for about $480 - book price was $400 according to Terry in Iowa. The other prices you mention WOW ! There must be some discerning collectors with large wallets out there !
Terry mentions that stretch glass is now being included in the Carnival books. Apparently so long the poor relation of Carnival but I like its simplicity as well as the stretch effect. Is there any future for it in your opinion ? I've never seen any in UK !
Here are close-ups of the bowl showing the underside and rim
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/avalonsmile/Researching/Garage106.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/avalonsmile/Researching/Garage108-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/avalonsmile/Researching/Garage116.jpg)
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Hi Peter - thanks for the extra photos. I feel more inclined to say that it does look like ice blue - though it’s almost impossible to be 100% certain from a photo rather than “in the flesh”.
Thinking aloud here, but I’ve been wondering if the bowl could possibly be iridized Depression era glass from a US maker? It’s not my area of expertise, so maybe someone else can add an opinion.
Now to your other questions. First - is there much Northwood Carnival in the UK. Answer? YES. And Fenton, Dugan and Imperial. Very little Millersburg though. The UK imported a great deal from the USA from around 1910 onwards.
You asked if “A Century of Carnival Glass” has “guidelines as to desirability ? such as which base colours and patterns to look out for ?” Answer, yes, in so much as there are value ranges attached to the color photos. The text also expands greatly on the wider background to each manufacturer. There is information on all three of our books on our website.
Your other question - “How does the Sowerby compare with others in terms of quality?”. Well, it depends…….. Like the US makers, Sowerby produced some amazing Carnival that is sought after and very valuable. They also made a lot of every-day stuff that is easily found and rather cheap. The trick is to know what you are looking for.
You also asked “When did large scale production of Carnival cease ?” There are several answers to this one. In the USA it stopped round about 1930 (different years for different manufacturers: Northwood stopped circa 1918-19) but for the European, Indian, Australian and South American makers, it started…and stopped…at different times. And of course, Carnival is still being made today.
Finally, you asked if there is any future for Stretch Glass. I think the Stretch Glass Collectors would say there is a very good future for it. It is a different “animal” to Carnival and is collected avidly in its own right. There are also Carnival collectors who also collect Stretch and vice versa. There are also examples of glass that are cross-over pieces, in that they are Carnival Glass with Stretch iridescence. They are sought after by both Stretch collectors and carnival collectors. Oh to be so popular!
:roll:
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Not "Strictly Carnival"
Yes Ive been thinking maybe this piece is not strictly carnival too. Partly because of the molding quality and partly becuase of the irridescenec being so feint and then there's the pattern and the rim edge - all don't quite fit.
And I'm inclined to go along with your suggestion of "iridized Depression era glass ". But why USA ? and not Bohemia ?
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Hi again - you asked "But why USA ? and not Bohemia ?"
It was just a thought..... I know that crackle patterns were in use then, and the color made me think again too. I was really thinking out loud....musing :roll:
Here's a question that may help us to decide. Is the base of the bowl ground or is it a collar base ("snapped up")? I can't determine the answer from your pics so I need you to tell me.
Glen
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Hi Glen
I've been pondering this to try and make sure I get it right.
I have seen many polished bases and its def NOT that.
I only recently saw a ground base and also a vase with a rim on the base which was ground and its not that either.
This rim does stand proud so I guess its a collar / snapped up.
It has some roughness but not the type you get from grinding.
The roughness seems more like that which comes from being forced into a mold. Inside the rim small ripples as I have seen in molded glass before are apparent if you look very closely.
I hope this helps - so what does it mean ?
USA / Bohemian - don't worry I have a thing about Bohemian / Czech at the moment - I'll get over it. (But it would be nice if it were an Inwald as I have some others - but post war)
Peter
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Hi Peter - thanks for the information.
From your description it does appear that you have a moulded collar based bowl. My guess (and it is only a guess, because I don’t have a factory catalog or similar information to back it up with) is that your bowl is possibly American Depression era glass. It’s a lovely item - very pretty.
If the base had been ground I would have suspected a European maker - possibly Czech. But the bases on Inwald’s Carnival are exceptionally characteristic and not easy to miss. They have a mirror-shiny, polished grind. Very high quality. You couldn’t mistake it.
But (final answer :lol: ) the jury is still out on this piece as I can’t give you an absolute and certain ID / maker for it. I’d love to hear other views.
Glen
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Hi everyone,
I only started to look at this seriously tonight. It appears to me to be a perfectly straightforward pressing, probably with the body in one piece. The rim is clearly fire-polished ("melted" in Sowerby-Davidson-ese, "glazed" in Joblingese) but the article didn't have to be stuck up on a punty to do this. I can't see if the bottom rim is pronounced enough to be gripped by a spring punty, whiich would have done the trick without marking the article. Much more likely is that the bowl was simply put on a turntable and blasted with an oxy-gas flame, either by hand or automatically.
The base colour could be a copper blue (one of the easiest and cheapest colours to make). I pass on the iridescence, although I remember being sent samples in the distant past (of course!) which produced something a bit like this.
No clues as to maker.
Adam
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If Adam reckons this is from a one piece mould, and with a fire polished rim, then I will do a flip-flop and delete my vote for American Depression glass :roll:
Back to Europe :shock:
Now....thinking aloud again....can anyone comment if I whisper "could this bowl be John Walsh Walsh, 1920s 1930s?" I'm not "au fait" enough with their production to answer my own question. Help?
Glen
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Does not show in Walsh Walsh 1929 catalogue but it does have blue and amber iridescent ranges. From the text I imply amber was introduced first and enjoyed considerable success blue added c 1929. So they must have expanded the range in the 20's
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Hi Peter & Glen
I have watched your postings with interest, nice piece, this is just a wild guess, but could it be a pattern called Soda Gold, I have seen photos of Soda Gold on Dave Doty's web site, and there is a likeness.
What do you think Glen?
Tony H
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No, it's certainly not Soda Gold. I have an example of the pattern in the form of a smoke tumbler - and for anyone that has our recent "The Art of Carnival Glass" you can see an illustration of a splendid marigold, rolled rim Soda Gold bowl on p 118.
Soda Gold was made by Imperial (Bellaire, Ohio) in the late 1920s, early 1930s. Only marigold and smoke are known and they are pretty difficult to find. The shapes that Soda Gold are known in are very distinctive.
There are a number of similar patterns from American makers: for example, Tree of Life, Crackle and Soda Gold. They were popular among American makers in the slightly later years of Carnival production and into the Depression era (eg Jenkins). They all differ a little from each other. Dugan also used one that is even closer to the pattern on Peter's bowl - it's known as Tree of Life (or Dugan's Soda Gold or even Crackle)! It can be found on the exterior of Dugan patterns such as Four Flowers.
Bottom line - Peter's bowl is not Soda Gold.
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Hi Folks
Well this has been great fun and I've learned a lot - a bit like an educational whodunnit.
Thanks to new contributors as well as Glen who has shown so much patience with this newbie. Glen: So NOT Inwald Carnival .......but maybe bohemian depression irridised ?
Adam: Thanks for your input
Quote"straightforward pressing, probably with the body in one piece">
I guess that would explain the lack of mold lines !
fire-polished rim> yes I go along with that. I hadn't given the rim much attention till now. I only have one other item on display where this is done - a Beranek signed studio vase - and the knobblyness on the rim is just like that piece - I dont know if that has any significance or not.
Base Rim > is not that pronounced - as far as I can measure max 4mm
Copper Blue> I have been unable to find a piece on EBay worldwide in current or present listings - so cant't compare - but have looked very closely at this topic and the base compares exactly (as far as its possible to tell) to the base area of this Ice Blue item http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29570&item=3749344151&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW&tc=photo and this is just one of several Ice Blue Carnival pieces Ive compared it to.
Frank: So Walsh Walsh is a possibility ? If so I seem to be unconsciously collecting their pieces and must get the book ! But I doubt it will help with this piece so is there any way to investigate further ?
Tony H> I have located Dave Doty's web site http://www.ddoty.com/ and excellent it is. I've looked at Soda Gold pattern and the veins look more pronounced and the space between them larger than my piece BUT we have already established that it can't be American Carnival in any case beause of the fire polished rim. Thanks for the suggestion.
I also looked up Ice Blue in Dity's color refrence and this is what he has to say about it "Ice blue is a very pale color and has pastel iridescence." which seems to fit my piece.
Glen:
Out of interest I looked at some Carnival crackle patterns (including the exterior of Dugan Four Flowers) and all seem more random than mine which is surpisingly regular.
Also the shapes made by the viens on mine are almost all elongated diamonds with only a very few squarish and triangular shapes.
The viens seem less pronounced than those on the American patterns and mine also has major and minor veins. The major ones go all the way from the base to the rim.
Finally the space inside the under rim is not patterned at all on mine whereas it is on the US Carnival crackle bowls I have seen (pics of).
Depression
I have now also looked at as many depression crackle pattern items as I can find and have found no pattern which compares well. Comments would be similar to those for Carnival crackle patterns except with even more divergence.
So Walsh Walsh or Irridised European then ?
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I know nothing about American carnival glass but why, please, can it not have a fire-polished rim?
Sowerby's Sunglow for example, because of the way the Sunglow is applied cannot help but be fire-polished all over as well as on the rim.
Adam
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Adam - please blame bad (English) phrasing on my behalf. It wasn't the fire polishing I was referring to - it was the one piece mould. I think most American Carnival was usually from two or three piece moulds.
There are some interesting examples of Australian Carnival that were from one piece moulds - but most Carnival I have examined which was apparently made from a one-piece mould has been European.
Fire polishing was used on most Carnival items. However, there are some unusual and rather rare cases where the absence of fire polishing is distinctive - and indeed forms part of the essential characteristics of the item. Specifically I am referring to celeste blue Carnival (mainly Fenton's). The edges (rim) of many (not all) examples of Fenton's celeste blue are sharp, often exhibiting little chips, and clearly not fire polished.
Thanks for correcting my bad phrasing :lol: Mea culpa.
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No NO Glen this confusion is my fault.
My american friend ( a glass collector and dealer of 10+years) initially told me that it could not be American Carnival because of the rim.
I omitted to mention this in my initial post.
Adam, when you drew attention to the rim and said it was fire polished I thought thats all there was to it.
However, having questionned Terry in Iowa again about it, apparently its not the fact that it's fire polished but that its irregular/ knobbly / not smooth. This style of rim is not seen in American Carnival he tells me.
My apologies for leaping to conclusions !
(PS I still think its Bohemian - Depression Era ? probably - Carnival ? still open)( Glen surely there were other Bohemian makers of Carnival apart from Inwald ?)
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Yes, there was another Bohemian (Czech) maker of Carnival. My discovery (about five or six years ago) that Josef Rindskopf Sons made a large amount of Carnival, was quite a shock to many collectors.
But I'm sure you can read about it on other websites.
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Hi everyone.
Here's my 2d worth. Looking at the heavyweights who have contributed, I doubt whether it is European, Australasian or Canada/USA. There is one huge chunk of world left over. Central & South America, Africa, and Asia from India and China to Japan, SE Asia, Malaysia and Indonesia. On a world map, countries like Vietnam look quite small, dwarfed by the immensity of China. Neverthess Vietnam is a big country with many diverse modern industries.
It certainly doesn't look like anything I have ever seen before.
Bernard C. :)
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Well, I don't know who made this piece - but I can add to my last point above (where I said that Josef Rindskopf Sons made Carnival Glass - the context being that they were the second known Czech glassmaker to produce Carnival). Now we know that Wilhelm Kralik Sons also made some.
Glen
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Looks like L.E. Smith "By Cracky" to me :?
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Don't have an answer but I was struck by the resemblence of the finish on Pete's piece to mine http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16539.0.html (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16539.0.html)