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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on January 12, 2012, 09:00:21 PM

Title: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 12, 2012, 09:00:21 PM: I bought this clear pressed glass sugar bowl & cream jug to add to my ever growing collection of Victorian clear pressed glass.

The cream jug has a date lozenge for the 15th Feb 1850 and the sugar bow for the 23rd May 1850. Registered to George Sherwood of the Eccleston Flint Glass Works of St Helens Lancashire.

These are the earliest pieces I now have that have a registered date lozenge. I believe I do have a cream jug and sugar which dates from the 1840's.

My challenge is to now find an item with a 1840's date lozenge

Roy
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: Frank on January 13, 2012, 02:45:12 AM: If you find one for 1841... name your price >:D
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 13, 2012, 06:21:02 AM: I think I have a chance with 1845-49 but 1842 -43 extremely difficult as very few items registered :thup:
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: Bernard C on January 13, 2012, 09:54:14 AM: Roy â€” See Strange & Rare, The Glass Circle, 1987, item 181.

The Thomas Gammon registration of 12 October 1849 is not too difficult to find. I've had two of the fine quality lidded pickle jars through my hands, and I'm sure that I've seen jelly glasses with the same registration.

The pickle is interesting as it is a complex and sophisticated production, very much the equal in standard of the later early Manchester pickle jars and cruet bottles. I've never seen anything which could be considered an early stage in the development of the pressed glass techniques used on these pieces.

Here's a much later (1910) example of the same pressed glass technology:

Mystery Arts & Crafts Condiment Set in Glass and EPNS (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22938.msg129447.html#msg129447)

I wonder where this technology was developed, presumably earlier in the 1840s?

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: Frank on January 13, 2012, 05:07:19 PM: Possibly France 1830s Bernard. Details of anything not easy to come by.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: neilh on January 13, 2012, 07:40:55 PM: What I find odd about the very early pieces, and I mean pre 1845, is that they often seem more ornate than what came later. Here is the earliest pressed sugar bowl known for Molineaux & Webb. I estimate the date around 1840 +- 5 years. Most of the ones after this are significantly more plain.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 19, 2012, 09:20:56 PM: Thanks Bernard and Neil

At least I know there are a few items that have a earlier date lozenge for me to hunt down.

I think this sugar and milk is possibly pre 1850 but cannot be sure as they are not marked.

The jug stands 3.5" and weighs 536 gm while the sugar bowl stands 7" and weighs 1170 gm

Thanks Roy
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: neilh on January 20, 2012, 05:50:51 PM: Roy, what do you think?
If a match, the sugar bowl strangely numbered 0.7 I think dates to 1860. I would say the creamer is from a different set and looks quite like a M&W piece I would have dated to 1840-1845
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 20, 2012, 09:18:18 PM: Neil

I bought both pieces at least 5 years ago. I agree they are most likely not a match and from different sets, thinking about it I cannot remember if I bought together or separately .

The sugar bowl does look like the same sugar bowl as your picture. The weight and thickness of the glass does makes me think earlier than 1860, although I do have a similar chunky comport registered for 1856

I did wonder if it was a pattern that may have been made earlier than 1860 and remade later. The earlier chunky pieces must have stopped being made around the 1860 when most registered pieces were made from thinner glass.

Roy
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: neilh on January 20, 2012, 09:54:37 PM: Hi Roy,
There's a little leeway with the dates I'm throwing at you and late 1850s is also a possibility for the sugar bowl. I am including a picture of the jug that looks pretty similar to yours - the top edge is a bit different. This is the earliest jug design from the M&W catalogue and I reckon early 1840s, so I would date your piece similarly.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 21, 2012, 06:17:48 AM: Neil

I agree the 2 pictures out of your catalogue look almost certainly to be the same as my sugar and creamer.

I also believe that pictures from catalogues are also not always identical to the finished pieces. I think unless proved other wise you have to say that they are early M&W pieces

Thanks Roy
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: agincourt17 on January 27, 2013, 05:56:12 PM: Here are a couple of photos of the sugar basin to match Roy’s Sherwood & Co. cream jug in the first post of this topic thread. The basin is 5 inches high, with a bowl rim diameter of 5 inches. The sugar basin is RD 67468 ( and bears the lozenge for 15 February 1850).

(Permission to re-use of the images of this item on GMB granted by mfor15).

The cream jug, with the same registration date, is RD 67467.

There were only two other designs registered by George Sherwood and Co. in 1850, both registered on 23 May 1850 – Parcel 4:
RD 69516 tumbler
RD 69517 sugar Basin
so Roy’s sugar basin, also shown in the first post of this topic thread, must be RD 69517.

Does anyone now have a photo of the tumbler RD 69516 to share?

I’ve trawled through the early glass registrations (Thompson, Slack, National Archives online catalogue) and it would seem that the four registrations mentioned here are the sum total of glass designs registered by George Sherwood & Co., Eccleston Flint Glass Works, St. Helens.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: agincourt17 on January 29, 2016, 10:17:10 AM: Only 3 years needed to ‘square the circle’ – sort of.

At last a photo of Sherwood’s RD 69516 of 23 May 1850 – Parcel 4, but not just a heavy press-moulded ‘tumbler’, rather a tumbler with an applied handle. 11cm high, and with the appropriate registry date lozenge in the base.

(Permission for the re-use of these images on the GMB granted by Chris Walton).

A photo of a plain tumbler (without the handle) still needed though.

Fred.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: nick.a on November 04, 2016, 09:40:08 AM: Hi,
I recently found this and thought I'd add these pics for reference, and in case Fred or Anne would like to add them to the Registered Designs pictoral database.
They are a yellow uranium variant of the Rd 67468 sugar basin with the lozenge for 15th February 1850 that Fred posted on 27/1/13.
Kind regards
Nick
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: agincourt17 on November 04, 2016, 11:33:52 AM: Thank you for showing this, Nick. Pretty rare, I would imagine.

I will add them to the GMB RD database shortly.

Fred.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: Paul S. on November 04, 2016, 08:54:36 PM: that uranium sugar is quite a find I'd imagine. As a sort of 'completing the picture' effort, here are watermarked National Archive images showing the original factory drawings/paintings for the Registered designs covered by this thread. Handles applied to tumblers seems to have been a not uncommon addition in the second half of the C19 - I wonder why - perhaps there really was a shortage of handled tankards, yet there was much use made I had thought of pewter tankards for ale. Possibly tankards are easier to hold than smooth sided tumblers which would be quite heavy and prone to being dropped if wet.
Inwald (Czechoslovakia - then Davidson) did quite a few from memory between the first and second WW, often as commemorative pieces.

I wonder who added the handle to the tumbler shown here, and looking at the sugar basin Rd. 69517, there seems to be quite a difference in shape between the artists impression shown in the factory drawing, and the final product which looks far more flared.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: agincourt17 on November 04, 2016, 09:46:56 PM: Thank you for showing these, Paul.

The images are really nicely rendered, especially considering how comparatively early they are in the chronology of design registrations.

Fred.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2016, 09:11:49 AM: Being a bit slow on the uptake, I've only just realized that there is a source of potential inaccuracy lurking in the above - compounded by my own failure to look at the details properly.
Other folk may well be aware of the difference, but having looked at the Kew images again, and checked the Registrant's names shown in the Register at Kew, there appear to be two different company names involved in these four Registrations.

In the Kew Register for Nos. 67467 and 67468, the Registrant's name is stated as Sherwood & Co., and this can be seen on the relevant pix above - whereas the later pair 69516 and 69517 are shown in the Register as George Sherwood & Co. - although unlike the first pair, these later drawings don't actually carry the Registrant's name.

Both Thompson and Slack show the correct details for each pair of Registrations, and I've mentioned this difference now since it doesn't appear to have cropped up during the course of this thread.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2016, 12:23:36 PM: Thank you, Paul.

I will check the details on my reference file photos and the GMB RD database and amend if necessary.

Fred.
Title: Re: George Sherwood Eccleston Flint Glass Works St Helens Sugar Bowl & Cream Jug
Post by: nick.a on November 05, 2016, 01:13:18 PM: Thanks Fred & Paul, one of those lucky finds on Ebay where the postage costs more than the item :)
Thanks to you both for the additional information. As Fred says Paul, those images are rather smart. Strange, the difference in the quality of pictoral information given upon registration, given the business implications, both great care and none.
Kind regards
Nick