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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: chriscooper on July 28, 2010, 02:45:47 PM

Title: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 28, 2010, 02:45:47 PM
Hi all, sold a Mdina 'cut ice' vase last week, just received an email today from the buyer stating asking how long I have had the vase " I believe this is not a genuine Mdina vase but a far east copy the green is too green I have loads of other pieces to compare. "Cannot find your returns policy, do not want to leave you negative feedback but want to return the vase for a full refund.
I have to tread carefully here, feedback is important to me as I sell dozens of items of glass a month and realise this person is only a 'click' away from spoiling it. Here is a link to the completed listing.
Thanks Chris  

http://tinyurl.com/39h9nd8
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Nemmie on July 28, 2010, 03:31:26 PM
Well I don't know anything about Mdina but I would say that as he notified you within seven days your are obliged to refund him as long as he returns the same item in the same condition (under distance selling regulations)

Do you normally not offer refunds?

Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 28, 2010, 03:53:45 PM
That is true if you are a business seller. I think what Chris is trying to establish is if the buyer is correct about the lack of authenticity.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 28, 2010, 03:58:58 PM
Off course I always offer refunds if the item is not as described? I  think the distant selling regulations only apply to business sellers? or is it bin not sure, but   surely you are missing my point I am trying to establish whether it is a fake?  if it's genuine Mdina as per my description then surely they have no recourse 'under item not as described'? So really just wanting confirmation that it is genuine, sorry if I didn't explain that properly.
Chris
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 28, 2010, 04:02:25 PM
There is no real green though. Isn't it just blue and loads of silver chloride.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 28, 2010, 04:04:41 PM
Exactly Christine :angel: If I accepted returns on this basis I wouldn't last long, It only takes one 'click' to spoil my feedback and in this case I am pretty sure it would be unjustified so we sellers have to tread very carefully.
Chris
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Nemmie on July 28, 2010, 04:05:17 PM
No I understood you perfectly was just pointing out that you would have to refund him without any reason under the distance selling regulations and could save the arguments and potential negative feedback.

I thought you were a trader as you mentioned selling a lot of glass. Anyway I will shut up now and let the Mdina experts give you the answer that you wanted in the first place. :)
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 28, 2010, 04:23:53 PM
Not a trader, more a friend of collectors and finder of 'rare' and beautiful piece's , sorry if I came across that way, I have been called 'tactless' many times  :sun:
cheers Chris
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on July 28, 2010, 05:15:28 PM
I myself would always offer a full refund regardless as I find it only happens very very rarely and keeps your feedback good.

If it turns out to be ID as Mdina I say full refund plus postage, if it turns out to be a fake it would be better to also pay the return postage as well

Roy
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: fattystratty1 on July 28, 2010, 05:30:46 PM
I find this a intresting topic seeing as I have allot of mdina pieces. So are thier fake pieces of Mdina out there, and do we know what shapes they are. I myself have a Mdina vase with a fake Harris signature on it but anyone can do that.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: glassobsessed on July 28, 2010, 06:04:25 PM
Your description looks fine Chris (as does the lollipop), lollipops were made for many years in a variety of 'styles' and colours. Given that the final colour could be somewhat random because of the effect of the silver chlorides used there will be plenty of variation between examples.

I think the distance selling regulations apply to business sellers and buy it now listings (business or private sellers).

I would recommend photographing against a plain white background in daylight, then buyers should not have any surprises when their item arrives. If the buyer insists on a refund make sure you (and the buyer) proceed according to ebay's terms and conditions for refunds.

John

Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: jonchellycain on July 28, 2010, 06:28:36 PM
hi there
Im no expert but am a collector of Mdina and have had a couple of hundreds of pieces over the years.
I would say this IS NOT a fake, Mdina lollipops did come in different sizes and shape (obviously being handmade no two where the same) and colour variations.
Ive never heard of "fake Mdina" in the sense of pieces being made/copied to fool/decieve, there are quite a lot with fake signitures though.
Also there is not enough value in a lollipop so why go to all the effort to make a fake??
To be honest i think your buyer is talking utter rubbish, ive seen them bright blue to deep sea green and almost all the sandy ochre colour too
I know exactly what you mean with regards to the whole treading carefully part though, i received a negative for a 1mm internal airbubble in a whitefriar vase (which i think sold for around £10) even after i had offered a full refund and it was declined
Hopefully it all turns out well in the end
michelle
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 28, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
It's not a "fake", it's absolutely, 100% genuine Mdina. Christine's right about colour variation, it depends on how deep the colour of glass melted in *that* pot was, the amount of silver chloride in it, and how that reacts with both the blue and the clear glass. Every piece of Mdina is different, and the colours are often very different too.
The silver chloride is horribly expensive nowadays, I know of no fake bits coming in from anywhere - I don't think it's raising good enough prices for anybody to be going to the expense of faking it.
This is a Michael Harris design, a highly desirable one, and it continued to be made for a while after he left. Your buyer got it quite cheaply - not long ago, these were regularly raising ~£75.

There are a lot of fake signatures now, some better than others. Many, you can tell just by the incorrect spelling of "Michael". There is an image of this style of "Cut-ice lollipop" on p.51 of Mark Hill's book; "Michael Harris: Mdina Glass & Isle of Wight Studio Glass". Interestingly, the image in the book has been taken under the same lighting conditions as this piece, so they do look very similar indeed. It will look quite different under different lighting conditions.

I can't advise you what to do about your buyer though. Send them here?
Would you need the word of Mark Hill or Ron Wheeler to give the attribution complete authority?

Your item is not misdescribed, it is absolutely correct.

Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: cubby01 on July 28, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
I am not an expert in Mdina but it looks good to me. 

Refund the money.  The buyer should pay shipping and it better not come back damaged!  Then offer it to the second chance bidder stating the first bidder stating the 'winner' didn't want it.  It's a hassle yes but it's not a HUGE money deal. 

Even with that said.. With as many feedbacks as you have I wouldn't worry about a bad one.  There's many boneheaded new ebay buyers that have left unwarranted negative feedback and we all know eBay has tipped that scale to the buyers side.  Anyone looking at feedback will look for trends not the oddball one in a thousand.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: scimiman on July 28, 2010, 08:58:57 PM
I will give you £36 and P&P for it. Rons your man. He's at the New Forrest Show until tomorrow but drop him a line and he will authenticate it for you. www.artiusglass.co.uk. He will give him chapter and verse and will be begging for mercy after about the 14th paragraph.

The item is 100% as described and therefore doesn't require a refund. If its because he doesn't like it then thats a matter of how nice and honest he is with you. Have you asked him where the statement 'Forgery' comes from?
Give him a link to the GMB.
Don't worry yourself over it Its just not worth it.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: obscurities on July 28, 2010, 10:20:27 PM
For what it is worth, and I can not attest to the authenticity of the vase, but as a buyer and seller on ebay, a negative or two on a seller would never deter me from buying.... unless they only had a feedback or two    ;D.

After having dealt with the human race in retail for as long as I did, you can not please all of the people all of the time.....

The fact of the matter is that if you do give a refund and don't pay return postage, the buyer can still leave a neg and there is nothing you can do about it....

Do not be held hostage by the threat of a negative... many sellers do the "right thing" and get negs from the buyer anyway.... You see it all the time if you read feedback.....

If the product is right, move on, besides, you could get a different piece back and they have proof of return for a package.... then you are out money and the product.....  seen that happen also.... unfortunately,  some buyers (scammers) will try every trick in the book.... sad but true.....

Craig

Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 29, 2010, 12:25:14 AM
As somebody who has only ever bought, I can attest there are some seriously dodgy sellers too.

But this item is 100% right, it's a lovely Mdina "Cut-Ice Lollipop", in an early and highly desirable pattern, designed by Michael Harris.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: obscurities on July 29, 2010, 02:35:44 AM
As somebody who has only ever bought, I can attest there are some seriously dodgy sellers too.

Absolutely......  it is just too bad the dodgy buyers can't just do business with the dodgy sellers and leave the rest of us alone.....   ;D

Craig
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: TxSilver on July 29, 2010, 02:56:05 AM
It may be that the buyer is just feeling insecure about the purchase. It happened to me today, so I can relate. Chris, if you could assure him that it is Mdina and tell him to take a few days to verify, you will guarantee the purchase. It may be that the vase was just surprisingly bright and shiny.

(My purchase is still under question. I'll post it to the board in a few days. I decided to keep it just for the research potential. The seller didn't do anything wrong in my case.)
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 29, 2010, 08:24:03 AM
Not a trader, more a friend of collectors and finder of 'rare' and beautiful piece's , sorry if I came across that way, I have been called 'tactless' many times  :sun:
cheers Chris

Chris, firstly I agree with the others, there's nothing at all wrong with your vase.  However, I would like to just challenge you on the statement you made above.  What do you mean by that exactly?  If you're selling your own personal possessions that you've accumulated over time then yes, you're a private trader - if however you're selling things you've bought specifically to sell on then I'm afraid that does indeed make you a business trader and, as such, you have obligations to your buyers that you wouldn't have otherwise.

Selling online as a business means you must refund your buyers in full for whatever reason, no quibble - the issue of who pays the return postage depends on a number of factors including the reason why it's been returned however many business traders would cover this cost also as a gesture of goodwill.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 29, 2010, 09:33:37 AM
The item is 100% as described and therefore doesn't require a refund. If its because he doesn't like it then thats a matter of how nice and honest he is with you.

Sorry Mike but that's slightly misleading.  That's only applicable to private sellers - business sellers must offer a full refund for any reason whatsover (change of mind, don't like it anymore, doesn't match the curtains!!) - who pays the postage cost for it to be returned however depends on a number of things.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: kane_u_pain on July 29, 2010, 10:10:50 AM
Also begs the question if you are selling 'dozens of items a month' than technically you are a business and not some selling household wares that a taking up space or no longer needed...you should give them a full refund. As to who pays for return postage is at your own discretion...
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 29, 2010, 10:25:48 AM
I have never, ever had a seller pay the return costs.
And I've only ever complained with very good cause, I've always ended up frustrated, disappointed, hassled and out of pocket.  >:(
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: robert1960 on July 29, 2010, 10:40:29 AM
I guess this boils down to how much 100% feedback is worth to you... would you pay £4 or £5 to keep it at 100% ?   

I'd pay the return postage in the knowledge my feedback is (probably) safe and you can resell the vase to someone that appreciates it.

(BTW you really ought to register as a business seller, as that's what you are)
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 29, 2010, 11:11:00 AM
Also begs the question if you are selling 'dozens of items a month' than technically you are a business and not some selling household wares that a taking up space or no longer needed...

Whilst I agree it does appear that Chris is a business seller - the number of sales itself isn't necessarily a factor - it's the intent at the time of purchasing the item that is later sold.  For example, if I was to buy a hoover because I needed a new one but then found on getting it home that it wouldn't fit in my cupboard and sold it that would be considered a private sale because I originally bought the hoover for my own personal use.  If, however I saw one going cheap and bought it specifically to sell on and make a profit, that would be classed as a business transaction.  Chris, you've said you're 'a friend of collectors and finder of 'rare' and beautiful piece's' - that doesn't sound like you're selling off your unwanted personal possessions to me.

Anyway, it might seem like I'm going on (apologies) but the point here is that seller obligations vary quite significantly depending on whether it's a business or private sale so it's entirely relevant in this instance.

IGMC!
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Cathy B on July 29, 2010, 12:13:46 PM
Chris, we all come across unpleasant people on eBay. I remember one bloke a couple of years ago who gave me a negative because I asked him to use bubblewrap. If I were you, I'd get the buyer to return it to you, you'll have to write off the postage, and then resell.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 29, 2010, 03:30:00 PM
Hi all, the statement "not a trader" was purely a tongue in cheek statement aimed at the many 'glassy friends' I have made over the years, particularly the Whitefriars collectors who 'pop' in here from time to time  :sun: Anyone who knows me will understand the statement "more a friend of collectors" and "finder of 'rare' items.
The post was started originally probably out of frustration, having just sold a perfectly good correctly described item only to be faced with the 'threat' of a negative feedback or lose money on an item, because the buyer knows even less than I do  :-[ Seems to have turned into a debate on whether I should be registered as a business or not. To be honest (again anyone who knows me) knows I have sold a lot of low and items over the years and the odd 'gem' mainly again to whitefriars collectors. I am well aware of the morals of selling on ebay on the very rare occasions I have to make a refund, mainly the odd 'lost' or broken items I always refund in full including return postage.
To be honest it's not a problem to me if I never sell another piece of glass again, pretty sure though a business seller would not be very happy if they had 3 or 4 of these a week, seems to be a simple question aimed at the knowledgeable Mdina folk, Sue and Suzy John in particular who have been more than helpful to me in the past as turned into a bit of a personal scrutiny of my affairs, a debate on the moral ground between buyers and sellers
which was never my intention, where's that shovel :phew:
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: johnphilip on July 29, 2010, 05:14:29 PM
Chris as you and i know with some people you just cant win , so just put it down to experience if it cost you a couple of bob its less life threatening than stress , keep in touch mate . JP . :cry: ;D :angel: :huh: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Anne on July 29, 2010, 10:52:07 PM
The UK's Distance Selling Regulations
This guide is based on UK law. It was last updated in July 2010.
http://www.out-law.com/page-430

Note, despite what it says on the eBay guides, online auctions are not covered by the DSR - BINs are, auctions are not.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 30, 2010, 08:06:20 AM
The post was started originally probably out of frustration, having just sold a perfectly good correctly described item only to be faced with the 'threat' of a negative feedback or lose money on an item, because the buyer knows even less than I do  :-[ Seems to have turned into a debate on whether I should be registered as a business or not. ....
To be honest it's not a problem to me if I never sell another piece of glass again, pretty sure though a business seller would not be very happy if they had 3 or 4 of these a week, seems to be a simple question aimed at the knowledgeable Mdina folk, Sue and Suzy John in particular who have been more than helpful to me in the past as turned into a bit of a personal scrutiny of my affairs, a debate on the moral ground between buyers and sellers
which was never my intention, where's that shovel :phew:

Chris, I'm sorry you feel that way - I was responding to this statement that you said to someone earlier in the thread 'surely you are missing my point I am trying to establish whether it is a fake?  if it's genuine Mdina as per my description then surely they have no recourse 'under item not as described'?    Which seems to imply you want opinions as to whether your buyer can force a return on you or not.

As for intending only certain people to answer your query - it's a public message board, anyone can answer within reason.  Perhaps in future you could state at the start of your thread that you only want certain people to comment and only about certain aspects.

And yes, I also get unreasonable customers too at times - it's to be expected when you're dealing with the general public - I just accept what they're saying, smile, apologise sometimes (yes, even when I'm not wrong!) and move on.  I've lost money in situations like yours through no fault of my own - it's just the way it goes sometimes.  Good luck with your selling anyway.

Anne, thanks for the link to the new updated DSR - that's my bedtime reading sorted! :)
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 30, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
Hi Pip, I appreciate what you are saying I know any question is 'open' for discussion. Though none profess to be  experts, a lot do tend to specialize in certain areas, so I think if you ask a question about a certain type of glass, these are normally where you get the answer. (Whitefriars is my chosen subject) and always try to help :pb:
The 'frustration' bit stems from the fact that having made the effort to photograph and  list the item carefully and correctly to the best of my knowledge, started it at a low price, took time to pack it carefully and safely, juggled start and end times to coincide with other commitments. 3 trips to the post office because we all know most always pay immediately but there is always one who pays after 2 days and 1 who waits 4 or 5 (not this buyer by the way)  :ac1:
Then to be 'told' in no uncertain terms that it's a 'fake' piece made in the far East and how long I have owned it because it's nothing like the other 30 pieces in my collection and then of course the bit at the end that mentions a full refund and of course the dreaded 'threat' of a negative feedback. We are all different some would bite the bullet, some ignore it and hope it goes away, we all know ebay is stacked up against the sellers even the genuine ones, the negative feedback is  only a click  away (justified or not) 
Sorry if I appeared to be telling anyone to mind there own business, which was never my intention.
Another bad habit I tend to go on and on and on........... :sun: 
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on July 30, 2010, 04:28:08 PM
Chris as you and i know with some people you just cant win , so just put it down to experience if it cost you a couple of bob its less life threatening than stress , keep in touch mate . JP . :cry: ;D :angel: :huh: :cheers:
Will do mate
cheers Chris
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 31, 2010, 09:07:58 AM
Thanks for explaining Chris.  I do understand your frustration, it's a lovely vase, nothing wrong with at all.  People can be weird sometimes :spls:

The hugely flawed changes to the eBay feedback system are one of the main reasons I stopped selling there - it's very unfairly weighted.  I don't understand the need for it now anyway, after all if I go into Waitrose and receive bad service they wouldn't allow me to scrawl it (unchecked) in big letters on the outside of the shop for all to see which is what feedback is in reality.

Anyway, hope it works out OK for you.
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Leni on July 31, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
From a buyer's viewpoint - I buy far more than I sell, as Chris knows  ;) - I can tell you that one or two negative feedbacks don't put me off.  I always look to see what exactly the negs were given for, and often I see that they are trivial complaints which IMHO can safely be ignored.  I also think it does help when the seller posts a sensible response, refuting or explaining the reason the neg was given.  I only take note of negs when I see lots, and the same sort of complaints over and over.  Also, I take more notice of abusive responses from sellers to what look as if they could well be fairly deserved negs!  I reckon a rude response to a neg weighs more against a seller for me than the original neg!  (I hope that makes sense  :spls:  ::) ) 

Anyway, your Mdina ice-cut lollipop is definitely a good 'un Chris!  I've got one very similar, and I search for Mdina every day and have seen plenty of these - all different, but all clearly genuine!  Is there no way a seller can take an accusation like this up with ebay?  Have you tried actually ringing and speaking to a real person?  Plenty of Mdina collectors here would back you up if they want a response from Mdina experts.  (I'm sure Mark Hill would be willing to make a comment, too.)  It's something I would try!  I know ebay is madly in favour of buyers against sellers - well, all they want is more money, and don't seem to care if they drive genuine sellers away! 

But I think good sellers like you (and Pip!) need to challenge the unfairness of the system!  Remember, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to remain silent"!   ;)
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: Pip on July 31, 2010, 11:13:11 AM
Agreed about the negatives - I don't get concerned by one or two unless the seller's follow-up replies are particularly rude or unpleasant in tone.  Thanks for the compliment too Leni :)

BTW, off topic I know but I saw you on TV recently - Newsnight I think  :clap:
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: glassobsessed on July 31, 2010, 07:11:05 PM
I sometimes get 'lost' reading feedback and skipping around from sellers to buyers comments, I have even blocked some people from my sales because they have left rude or vindictive feedback elsewhere. I browse around like that in theory to see what people are buying (and paying) but really I am just plain nosey. ;D

John
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: jonchellycain on July 31, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
I do that too John, we have also blocked people who friends and family have had problems with, bad news spreads much quicker than good news.
Michelle
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: glassobsessed on August 01, 2010, 12:07:58 PM
Glad I'm not alone. ;D
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on August 01, 2010, 08:50:41 PM





But I think good sellers like you (and Pip!) need to challenge the unfairness of the system!  Remember, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to remain silent"!   ;)
thank you Leni :kissy:
Chris
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chriscooper on August 10, 2010, 05:19:46 PM
Just an update, apart from the initial message informing me the vase was 'fake' and despite correspondence from me directing the buyer here for confirmation and asking what how she wants to proceed?  I have had no reply at all, so no news is good news then? read the post and seen the error of her ways and feeling a little silly :ac1: maybe? no such look the vase arrived back today completely unannounced no email no letter enclosed and not registered post.
Chris :sun:
Title: Re: Mdina 'cut ice vase' buyer says it's a fake?
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 10, 2010, 07:17:20 PM
I reckon this is a situation where you are not responsible for paying the return postage....