Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Trinket Sets => Topic started by: norcalglassman on February 03, 2009, 07:43:13 AM

Title: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: norcalglassman on February 03, 2009, 07:43:13 AM
Hello to all from Northern California. I hope your group has room for a Yankee.
My wife and I have a perfume bottle, its marked Germany on the bottom, but we could also see writing under the Germany stamp. We took the bottle to a shop to make since of what was there. This is the story we got.
He said it reads "Made in Czecho-Slovakia" He told us that the bottle was more than likely made before the 1940s before the time Germany invaded The Czechoslovakian Republic. He talked about how Germany would take the products from a Country they had over- thrown and send them back home where they would be marked "Germany" and then sold to the world market. So that is what we know about the bottle, kind of neat background. Also he said the number 33 that is painted on the bottom is the artist number.
I'm new and will try and post pics of the bottle and the mark, The pics shows what we see and we can make out that it does read Made In Czecho-Slovakia . So what do you all think?
Tim & Lisa

http://i40.tinypic.com/552rkp.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/256w7qr.jpg
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Jindra8526 on February 03, 2009, 08:12:04 AM
Best regards to California from Prague, Czech republic, formerly Czechoslovakia.

The story sounds rational but I have are serious doubts about. It is absolutely sure that this piece is a "bohemian", this type of glass has been produced in Haida (Nový Bor) region. After Munich agreement in November 1938 this part of Czechoslovakia felt German hands and was connected to Germany. The rest of country became be the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939. The perion between November 1938 and March 1939 is so called 2nd republic, and residual part of inland had a name Czecho-Slovakia, before and after WWII always Czechoslovakia.

So the region of Haida with more than 50 percent of German spoken Czechoslovakian citizens was really part of Germany. What is very unclear for me is the usage of English for designation of origin. At that pieces formerly having Czechoslovakia mark were stamped "Sudetenland"  or simply Deutschland, the export of glass to abroad was minimal and prevented by British "Enemy Act".

My explanation for "Made in Germany" is following.
In 1945 after the war the parts of Czechoslovakia, including Haida region were connected back to Czechoslovakia and all German spoken Czechoslovakian citizens (about 3 mio) had been expelled from Czechoslovakia to Germany. Many of them were glassmakers, the lack of glass-specialist was big problem for renewed Czechoslovakia. I discovered yesterday, that with this glass makers was transferred to Germany also know-how of making Egermann's pieces. The same had probably happen with this white overlaid clearly "bohemian" decorated piece.

I suppose that this piece has been produced after WWII anywhere in Western Germany by expelled Czechoslovakian Germans.

Jindrich
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 03, 2009, 01:21:21 PM
Nice bottle!
I'm not too sure about the 33. being an artist number, though.
Is there a number 33. also on the base of the stopper?

I ask, because stoppers and bottles have to be made specifically to match each other, (I believe the stoppers are actually made first, as it is easier to match the bottle to the stopper than the other way around) they are then normally designated numbers in this way.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: TxSilver on February 03, 2009, 04:18:52 PM
It is a very pretty bottle. Sue brought up a good point. I have handled several old Bohemian and other pieces that had the numbers on the bottom. They were enameled vases and bowls, so didn't have stoppers. I was told that the numbers designated the decorator, and had not really questioned it before now. I wonder if it is a set designation, instead, to ensure that pieces placed together were the same colors and decoration pattern. (Speculating) -- This might explain why some enameled pieces have numbers while other similar ones do not. Perhaps some were made to be part of a set, while others were made to be stand alone. Does anyone know for sure what these numbers designate?
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: norcalglassman on February 03, 2009, 04:57:02 PM
Good Morning, Thank you all so much for your wonderful feedback on the bottle.
The history was great, but then I do love History and try to learn from it. I checked the stopper this morning and there are no marks on it. I't does make since that the number would be to keep sets together or as a decorators mark.  The artwork is really fantastic. I wish I had even a small bit of the talent it takes to paint like that. Don’t know if you can see the gray shading around the groups of flowers but it really sets the motif off. Like them say it makes them POP.
Thanks again for your wisdom and time.
Tim 

Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: pamela on February 03, 2009, 05:07:05 PM
Lisa and Tim, welcome to the board!

Jindrich, thank you - very interesting and I learn a lot from this !
I am d'accord with you, as the markings seem to be stamped etched, and 'Germany' looks like etched OVER Czecho-Slovakia? But still think could be 30ies production - has been taken 'ready' with them as you said and sold over-stamped later in Germany?

ending for French market then was -quie
Marcus, please, where are you ?

Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Anne on February 03, 2009, 05:24:11 PM
Not that it will help much I suppose, but the stamped mark reminds me of the one seen on the Leroc decorated trinket set we discussed here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1334.0.html

Tim and Lisa, welcome to the board. It's a beautiful bottle for sure!
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 03, 2009, 05:25:55 PM
I do have a couple of (couple, not pair, ::) and rather poor quality) ruby-flashed and acid-etched old "bohemian" perfume bottles, which belonged to my grandmother (and I'm ancient), which have numbers very similar to this, with the full stop at the end. The numbers on each bottle match the numbers on the bases, and the stoppers are not interchangable.

But I had thought this was a very common and international way of ensuring the right stopper stayed with the bottle.

Perhaps, as this is such a lovely one, clearly very good quality, it might not have been made in a large batch of them, and so didn't need to be marked out in this way? :spls: I don't know.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 03, 2009, 08:12:12 PM
Aren't decorator's marks usually painted on in whichever colour the decorator used last? Decorator's often worked at home and were paid on piece rates (even in factories) - hence the need for a mark. I would expect a "set" mark to be applied by the QC or shipping department when the "made in" mark was applied. Perhaps a chinagraph pencil mark was used to keep sets together before shipping. You wouldn't send a bottle plus its stopper out to a decorator. I too suspect that the bottle was originally destined for export to an English-speaking country and was then "liberated" for export via Germany. The US was particularly fussy about labelling regarding place of manufacture. A less than scrupulous exporter could claim a badly applied mark if questioned.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: norcalglassman on February 03, 2009, 09:29:19 PM
Bingo, The 33. mark is in orange like the flowers. You have all made this California Beach boy {well that was many years ago} feel right at home here. We can't thank you all enough for your time and words of wisdom.

Tim & Lisa
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Jindra8526 on February 04, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
Dear Pamela,
I would not expect that this bottle could be fabricated in Czechoslovakia and transfered an re-marked in Germany in 30ties, but it should be true for 60ties.

From history we know the poor economical situation of Germany before WWII and the also strong position of Czechoslovakia. Remarking to "Germany" would not bring any profit to Czechoslovakian sellers at that time namely when to be "Bohemian" souded good. There is the evidence, however, that some Czechoslovakian goods including glass had been sold to "west" labeled as produced in Germany, Italy in the time of "real socialismus" here.

But anyway, I would focus to German producers, I suppose that simmilar I have seen in small museum in nice Bavarian town Zwiesel fabricated in some glassshop in surrounded region.

Jindrich
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 04, 2009, 12:40:17 PM
As you said, "Bingo" - if the number is IN one of the colours, it IS, as lustrousstone said, very much likely to be the decorator's number.

Sorry for sidetracking you all.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 04, 2009, 12:44:02 PM
I'm trying to be diplomatic here but wasn't a lot of stuff illegally removed from occupied countries to Germany during the war? The German mark is plainly on top
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Jindra8526 on February 04, 2009, 02:54:03 PM
I am not familiar with situation in other countries but here in Czechoslovakia it was quite clear.

Border regions - where the glassworks were mostly placed were connected to German "Reich" according to Munich's agreement between France, UK, Italy and Germany, so it that time it was not re-labeling or re-naming but really designation of country of origin - but as I wrote - typical it was in German language not in English. The international market was closed during the war, so I cannot see any rational reason to use English. Moreover the owners of the most glass factories in Haida region were German spoken CS citisens and connection to Germany in first years 1939/1940 was observed by them like positive and it satisfied their national wishes. The very special situation was with the properties owned by Jews, all had been confiscated and germanised. It had happened to Moser, for example.

Clearly is the situation described in Marcus Newhall's book.

The glass production during war was oriented to military needs rather than to parfum bottles, many factories had personal problems becouse men went to war. The rest part of Czechoslovakia was really occupied, German created there Protectorate and Slovakia had own state that colaborated with Germans. The glass industry had not same problems as regions directly under the German rule, Czech glassmakers that eskaped from parts of country annected by Germany had found jobs in inland. Note please that in 1940 had grounded Mr. Emanuel Beranek his glasswork in Skrdlovice, he was one from glassmakers who came from Haida (Novy Bor) region. His war production - so called "Skrdlovice antique" is very collectable now.

After the war was the Munich's agreement anullated and border regions re-connected to Czechoslovakia again. Unfortunately our ancestors had decided to "solve German problem" in Czechoslovakia "once and forever" and according to Potsdam's agreement they decided to drive out all German spoken Czechoslovakians, who were not able to proof, that they were anti-nazi active during war. So it has happened that the border regions were saddenly empty and were attacked by "gold-diggers" from other part of country. Some of factory owners were jailed by Czechoslovakians or Russians (Schlevogt, Riedel) and then expieled, tragical was fate of  old Podbira who was killed by "revolution guard".

Czechoslovakia had lost many skilled glassmakers and logicaly these people continued in their work in new homes in Germany, mainly in Bavaria. So it is very problematic to speak about stolen marks or designs, the last century was horrible.

Jindrich
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 04, 2009, 04:08:31 PM
I'm not suggesting it was made during or after the war or that the war wasn't horrible. What happened to the stock that was sitting in warehouses awaiting export when hostilities broke out and could not be exported to the English-speaking country it might have been destined for? I believe French Champagne was confiscated and taken to Germany, why not Czechoslovakian perfume bottles. The German exporter who acquired the bottles might then (post war) have had them restamped for export so he could get a licence.

Business is not always ethical, and this is speculation but a logical answer
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: norcalglassman on February 04, 2009, 04:53:58 PM
Good morning. I am so pleased that this little bottle has giving us all so much info. The background Jindra8526 has giving us is wonderful and I thank you so much. I do love your countries art glass and the background of the wartime is fantastic. Who would have thought that such a beautiful bottle that is so far from its maker could start such a great thread. I know I have learned much. Lustrousstone I see what your says. The bottle was made and sits there as we all have learned in Jindra8526 History 101 class things were mixed up and bad at that time. So let me ask this. I believe the "Made In Czecho-Slovakia" in English mark dates back to before the 1st world war is that right? And was used up until when? I think the past on this little bottle may never be truly known. I’m so glad I found you all and once again, thank you all.
Tim
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: TxSilver on February 04, 2009, 10:16:46 PM
Tim, Czechoslovakia did not come into being until the individual states that made up the country were merged in 1918 after WWI. It was a merger that the citizens of the individual countries did not want, so it was an uneasy time. War World II, then Communism, brought about further changes that is reflected in the glass industry. Czechoslovakia was dissolved in 1993.

Before reading what Jindra wrote, I had considered glass labeled Czecho-slovakia as being from the c.1920s. Maybe we can have some clarification on this if our Czech experts are available.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Anne on February 05, 2009, 01:04:05 AM
Anita, see here for the name history:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24254.msg135934.html#msg135934
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: TxSilver on February 05, 2009, 04:05:07 AM
It is good to have Jindra in the group. Thanks for posting the link again, Anne. It is a very helpful one.

I thought back on why I might think the Czecho-Slovakia may be c1920s and realized it was from reading what people wrote about Moser labels. According to Gary Baldwin in his books on Moser, he has the separated forms Tcheco-Slovaquie and Czecho Slovakia used on various labels from 1918 - 1920s (and after perhaps). I know this is probably easily explained. Loetz also used the broken form without hyphenation after 1918. In this case it may be because it fit into the oval.

Tim, great thread to bring out a lot more good information.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 05, 2009, 07:43:50 AM
There is more info here, including that on the hyphen being used for a brief period post WW 1
http://www.pitt.edu/~votruba/qsonhist/spellczechoslovakia.html
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Jindra8526 on February 05, 2009, 10:18:37 AM
Anita is very true.

Even official name of state was from the 28th October 1918 Czechoslovakian republic, in the first years 1919 and 1920 you can also find labels or marks written not together "Czechoslovakia" but Czecho-Slovakia or French exquivalent of this. In later years always together - exeption is period between November 1938 - March 1939.

Why I am speaking so widely about this little "dash".

This little "dash" was always big political issue in relationship between two nations in former Czechoslovakia - Czech and Slovak nation. For friends who are not famililiar with it, Czech and Slovak language is very simmilar, little children can understand each other without interpreting. In period of first Czechoslovak republic - 1918 - 1938 was officialy undertaken concept of unique "Czechoslovakian" nation. It should be remembered that Czech part of country was industrial, good educated and developed, Slovak part was rather agricultural. Politicians had believed that this "fabricated" Czechoslovakian nation would better resist Germans at Czech side and Huńgarians at Slovak side. Czech had accepted this concept of one nation, but some Slovaks had own national ambitions. Therefore at the first moment when it was possible, in 1939 after ocupation of Czech part of Czechoslovakia by nazis, Slovaks had declared own Slovak state.

After WWII was Czechoslovakia renewed again, only the most east part of country was taken by Russians and connected to Soviet Union. Soon won communists and the Slovak national ambitions were suppressed. Significantly in very hard times for Czechoslovakia - in 1968 just after the Russian invasion Slovak's ambitions had grown again and Czechoslovakia was constituted like "federal republic".  But it was rather game, becouse all rule was still in communists hands.

The end of Czechoslovakia came soon after the velvet revolution in 1989. In 1990 started so called "dash war". Slovaks wanted to show that they are the nation also in the name of state and have asked for introducing "dash" to name of Czechoslovakia (Czecho-Slovakia). For Czechs this was unnaceptable, this name reminiscented the period of second republic after German annection, silly problem but quite emotional. Result was that the state had been renamed to Czech and Slovak Federal Republic - shortly written in Czech language "Československo" in Slovak language "Česko-Slovensko"  :)

It did not help, Slovak separatistic ambitions were actively supported by about 20 percent Slovak voters, the futer existence of one Czechoslovak state was ineffective a irational. It was agreed in peace that country will be splitted from January 1st 1993, every Czechoslovakian citisen has got chance to select his nation and state without any restrictions according his personal wish. Two month later was divided also common currency. Nowadays both states are member of EU, Czechs keep their currency Czech Koruna, Slovaks joined Euro this January.

Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: TxSilver on February 05, 2009, 09:18:58 PM
Great information, Christine and Jindra. It clears the uncertainty about the dates on the Moser and Loetz stamps. I wondered if the broken name reflected the unrest that the different states felt about their alliance, but did not want to mention it without any documentation. To get back to the original poster's glass, I suspect it may have been made c. 1938 because it is overstamped "Germany." I doubt that the older things would still be for sale when the Nazis invaded.
Title: Re: Cool Story or No way...Czecho-Slovakia Perfume bottle
Post by: Oliver on September 12, 2010, 03:23:04 PM
I'm new here and I just found this very interesting topic which was discussed already some time ago.
Well, I found an advertisement (end of the 60s) of a quite important German glass manufacturing company at Kaufbeuren-Neugablonz (="New-Jablonec"), Bavaria, which was founded by former bohemian glassworkers and entrepreneurs after expulsion from Czechoslovakia in 1946. But this is only one of a number of producers, who made traditional bohemian products for many years.

The Nazi-tale about this perfume bottle probably sounds more spectacular, but I agree with Jindrich, that it is far more likely the bottle is from the late 60s ore even 70s when parallel to the economic uprising in Germany the wages grew fastly, the competitiveness of German glass-companies suffered. It was very common for German producers to cooperate with Czechoslovakian and Slovenian companies at that time. So sometimes it was cheaper to let produce in CSSR and deal with it, many examples are known. But this is nothing unusual, there were also a lot of German perfume bottles that were produced by "Kristallglas GmbH" in Hesse for example and later on sold by "Marcel Franck" on 5th Avenue as Made in France...

So here is an example of "German bohemian" products from the late 60s,

Oliver
www.kristallglas-oberursel.net