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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: svazzo on January 30, 2005, 06:00:18 AM

Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on January 30, 2005, 06:00:18 AM
Hi Everyone!
In keeping with the weird and unusual, LOL, here's another bowl from my collection that I have no idea where to place it....

http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/kidneycamouflage.jpg

At first I thought the piece looked like the Blenko Kidney shaped bowls, but I already took advantage of Cathy's help at the Blenko Collectors website, and she rapidly told me it wasnt Blenko. By the way, thank you Cathy for the rapid responce to my email! She told me it could not be Erickson either.

I also thought about the piece being an experimental Seguso "Macchia" piece, because of the camouflage (greens and browns) on the bowl and the frothy look. I just dont have enough information on Seguso at this point to attribute it to him + the piece looks to be mold made. Unsure if Seguso ever made molds for his pieces, so this is another mystery piece.  :?

Sooo.... I post this new item for your comments and discussion.
Thank you all again!
Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 30, 2005, 03:11:04 PM
Hello, I'm afraid I don't know about a maker, but do you think it could be "pate de verre"? I'm no expert, but it has that "look" to me and I believe "pate de verre" requires a mould. Kindest Regards, Sue
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Ivo on January 30, 2005, 04:13:51 PM
by the look of it it is pulegoso, so most likely Italian. Many Italian manufacturers have used Pulegoso (foam) glass which does not require serious technology.  It became popular around the twenties, and has been with us ever since - of course in this item the form says fifties or sixties.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on January 30, 2005, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: "chopin-liszt"
Hello, I'm afraid I don't know about a maker, but do you think it could be "pate de verre"? I'm no expert, but it has that "look" to me and I believe "pate de verre" requires a mould. Kindest Regards, Sue


Hello Sue, thanks for the comment!
Could you tell me what "pate de verre" refers to? Is it just to the colors?

Hi Ivo,
It does have that very distinct Pulegoso style of Murano pieces, but I have never seen one done in a pres-mold form before. I have 2 vases, 1 white irridescent and 1 very large brown one, and they just dont have the same feel as this one. Guess it is because of both coloration it has inside and shape that makes me worry about calling it Murano right away.

I agree with the reference to the 50's-60's. The first thing I thought was a Blenko shape. The piece looks very raw to me, with its unevenness and texture on the outside. I havent seen Murano look like that before.

Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Ivo on January 30, 2005, 07:27:58 PM
what makes you say press moulded? Looks more free formed with those flowing contours. Any seams we should know about?
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on January 30, 2005, 08:31:25 PM
Hi Ivo!
What makes me think it was pressed onto a mold is that the piece doesnt have a polished base or pontil marks. Also when you look at it from the bottom you can see almost a line just under the rim where the glass overflowed? a little, making the rim protrude out on some areas. Hope this is making sence.
I think it was put in a 2 piece mold and pushed from the top to cause that overflow on the rim, and the way the bubbles are elongated around the rim denote something like that happening. I think you can see that clearly in the photo.

Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Ivo on January 30, 2005, 10:03:25 PM
I'm almost certain that pulegoso is unsuitable for press forming, and I see no sign of a mould defined shape. It may have been slumped and worked with tongs (is there a technician in the room?) but that would fall under free forming.  At the very least it means that a glass maker has been at work, not a machine operator - and that is good news!
Title: Blenko Freeforms
Post by: CathyG on January 30, 2005, 10:16:07 PM
Javier, I had these pics of Blenko freeforms in my photobucket so I thought you might like to see them. The first pic is of a Blenko freeform and a copy, copies were made by other companies, the Blenko freeform is the amber one. The next pic is one of 4 freefroms. The only freeforms I've seen with multi-colors are amberina or jonquil. Some of the jonquil have stripes of red running through them, still the yellow and red combination. Blenko is known for their colors and the colors in this piece are not Blenko colors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/glass47/966compairson.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/glass47/freeforms.jpg

Cathy
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Adam on January 30, 2005, 10:48:45 PM
I'm a bit out of my depth here re free forming.  However, if one is not fussy about the exact shape of the top edge (which is clearly the case), there is no reason why a mould could not be used as a body (ref. my moulds posting) with a simple plug gently pressed in, possibly simply held in the hand.  The big lump of glass would remain hot long enough for the plug to be squeezed in with little pressure, then withdrawn and perhaps a little free forming done afterwards.

When I was a student, we (unofficially) made ash trays this way.  The plug had four rods sticking out of the sides to form cigarette grooves.  No press of any sort needed.  Final result was, let us say, primitive art!!

Adam D.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on January 30, 2005, 11:14:38 PM
Cathy - Thanks for the photos!

Hi Ivo and Adam -
I would tend to dissagree with you Ivo, cant see anything from the process of making it that would prevent a mold being used. I am almost certain that Adam has described exactly how this bowl was made. It looks like it was pressed from the top and bottom. I guess since i dont have a side or bottom view you guys cant see it well. I'll load some up tomorrow.

Could it be just that, an experimental piece done by a student? Maybe American?

Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 31, 2005, 09:52:41 AM
Hello Javier,
"Sotheby's Concise Encyclopedia of Glass" (eds. David Battie and Simon Cottle, 1997) describe "pate-de-verre" in the glossary as:-
"French, "glass paste". Ancient technique, revived in France during the second half of the 19th century, of melting in a mould ground glass, to which was added a fluxing medium and colouring agent (this was either powdered, coloured glass or metallic oxide)".
As nobody else has commented on this it may well be that I'm completely off the track as far as this piece is concerned! The most famous makers of "pate-de-verre" that I can think of are Gabriel d'Argy Rousseau and Daum, also Henri Cros and Francois-Emile Decorchement are illustrated in this book.
I've seen some modern pieces of "pate-de-verre" and the grains of glass used seen to be much coarser than these turn of the last century artists, so I have seen this technique can produce varying degrees of texture.
Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable can put me right as far as this piece is concerned! Cheers, Sue.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Frank on January 31, 2005, 06:28:19 PM
There are a LOT of glass artists using Pate de Verre. It is a relatively easy technique compared to most other techniques, except perhaps slumping and fusing.

Of course, there are also practitioners who have taken it to sophisticated levels. Argy-Rousseau was of course a master but I have seen many pieces in modern galleries that compete with him in every respect.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on January 31, 2005, 11:52:30 PM
Hi Frank and Sue!
I did a few searches online for "pate-de-verre" and found most of the topics that came back were of new artists selling bowls or jewlery. I did find 2 photos of Daum vases that were from the 30's but they looked nothing like my bowl. They were very structured and sectioned, from the molds they were made from. Probably many molds used for 1 piece.  
Also, I do not think that the process, which was described by Sue, would make bubbles like the ones in my bowl. Am I correct in saying that, or would a chemical reaction cause the particles to bubble up like that?
Believe me, I am no chem expert and only did a search today, lol, but it seems unlikely to me that it is the same technique.

Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: paradisetrader on February 01, 2005, 08:37:50 AM
Javier, in any description of this piece, I belive "freeform(ed)" would be preferable to molded - and give a more precise indication of the irregular "free" form and nature of the piece. Also, as Ivo notes, it denotes much more hand work, which is generally seen as preferable.

The technique I dont get (yet) is kiln forming - my main question would be why ? (given that glass remains maleable for sufficient time after being removed from the kiln)

However I don't believe Javiers piece is Pate de Vere.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Frank on February 01, 2005, 09:04:11 AM
Quote from: "paradisetrader"
The technique I dont get (yet) is kiln forming - my main question would be why ? (given that glass remains maleable for sufficient time after being removed from the kiln)


Slumping: Take a piece of window glass you found on a skip, make it hot enough to soften and slump over whatever you put it on - it can be done with little mor than a blow-torch but you would use up a lot of gas cylinders, voila you are a glassmaker  :roll:  You can certainly make small pieces of Pate de verre jewelery with a blow torch. But the easiest for home work is lamp-work where you just bend and shape and fuse, maybe blow a little, rods of glass over a bunsen burner. These days finding a gas tap might be tough but you can get butane gas bunsens.


The main reason is it is a cheaper way to get started in a Glass Art vocation at it uses much lower temperatures and does not need the glass to actuallly melt, so cheaper kiln. You can make a shaping mould from plaster.

All you ever wanted to know:

http://www.warmglass.com/tutorial.htm
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: svazzo on February 02, 2005, 06:22:40 AM
Hello Peter,
From the last comments on page 1...

edit (2/3/05)
As for Free-Form or Mold-Made... When I refer to something Free-form I am talking about the shape of the piece, and not the way it was made. That would just be put into "hand-blown." For this piece, yes, it would be a free form shape, but not hand blown/pulled or slumped. The piece was clearly put into some kind of mold. If it was "slumped," I dont see how it can have the shape it has.
I still think it was made as Adam described earlier (page 1).

Also, we cant see the photo of your Pate de Vere piece. Mayeb you didnt close the link?

Frank - Thanks for the info on "slumping."

Javier
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: paradisetrader on February 04, 2005, 01:28:42 PM
Kiln Forming: Thanks Frank
I knew about slumping ...so I thought ..I didnt realise it took place IN the kiln and it seems that's not necessarily the case ?
Does anyone know if those slumpers extrordinaire, the Hinggins of Chicago, slumped in or out of the kiln ?
Are there other ways of kiln forming ?

Pate de Verre - sorry about the link to my piece - dunno what happened there here it is fixed. http://tinypic.com/1iy7wn

Free Forming
If I inderstand glassmaker Adam's posting corectly, a mold may be used during the process but if the piece is finished off using free-forming techniques then it may still be rightly called free-formed ?

Javier
Re the bubbles I think that would have been done in the batch before any forming took place and we are back to pulegoso technique for that.
I don't think you piece was slumped either - I think we just got side tracked there.  From pictures of slumpted glass I've seen they usually have a wide rim. But I could be wrong.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Frank on February 04, 2005, 03:10:47 PM
Moulds can be used in two basically different ways in glassmaking:



All Monart and Vasart was free-formed. Dip-moulds were used to create variation in enamels marvered onto the glass. These resulted in striped decoration, twisting and rdipping resulted in contra direction striping. Other formers were also used, for example a spoked cartwheel type device - the open end of the shaped vase being pushed down on the spokes to create a waved edge effect.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Ivo on February 04, 2005, 03:47:39 PM
here is a link to a picture of my favourite Päte-de-verre item.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29558&item=3753372268&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Especially in France many antique dealers call everything (pressed, satinated, slag etc.) a "pâte-de-verre" because it sounds chic;  but PDV is an expensive technique with spectacular results.  
I.
Title: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
Post by: Frank on August 05, 2006, 02:55:42 PM
Quote from: "Ivo"
Especially in France many antique dealers call everything (pressed, satinated, slag etc.) a "pâte-de-verre" because it sounds chic;  but PDV is an expensive technique with spectacular results.  


I am well aware of what Pâte-de-Verre is but continue to be confused by French retailer catalogues 1920's - 1950's which consistently use the term for various other types of glass.

Do we have anyone with an understanding of this usage, which must predate the chic use by French Antique dealers. Is it that the anglicised version is narrow but in French it is a broader term?