Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on November 11, 2013, 08:40:47 PM
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This is a monumentally large piece - the Marmoriertes vase next to it in the first pic is a normal size vase at 8" tall by nearly 3 3/4" wide.
The Harrach Etruscan vase in white is actually 14" tall so a large vase.
This one is nearly 25" tall (63cm with missing foot intact) and is 8" diameter (about 20cm ) at the widest.
It has a damaged foot which has a wooden support now, and which I am going to have to gild or something as it isn't the most attractive addition :).
No idea what the base would have looked like as it's damaged but I believe the foot would have been a flared simple foot similar to the Harrach vase.
The rim is not sharply cut bevelled and polished. It's beautifully done so although I'm sure it's been cut and bevelled it practically feels fire polished. It's been gilded over and there is also a gilded band inside the neck of the rim.
The glass glows bright green under uv light and is definitely cream whatever the photos might look like.
This is a completely different animal to the Harrach Etruscan piece. It's hard to compare quality, but by comparison the Harrach Etruscan looks 'mass' produced although well made.
There is a fair bit of gilding missing on the figure decoration. All of them had some gilding lines or decoration on their clothes and many had gold medallions in their hair bands - these show as white circles on the hair of the lady I've added in close up. They appear to be musicians and dancers as the theme.
I can't believe it's easy making such a large piece and hand enamelling and firing it then gilding it and it still surviving? I've only matched the size with two larger pieces in my books - one I mention below, the other is a two part exhibition piece with a matching plinth but the vase part is larger than this vase and I think they were used for an Exhibition. I'm sure there will be more but those are all I've found in my books.
I really bought it out of curiosity because of it's size. The decoration is all over - 8 large figures in total round the vase - and the whole thing is hand enamelled.
From what I can tell, it's missing just over 3cm or so of foot, having found another similar pair also converted to lamps with the size recorded. That pair have a different decoration on the neck and are not quite as intricate overall as this one, but definitely from the same maker and 'series' of decor, although the figures are different depictions. The colours etc are all the same. There was no maker indicated as they were sold through a small English auction house who said they were English... which I am suspicious of.
The meander pattern appears to be done with the same colours and the same enamels, and in the same way as my Etruscan plate (I'll put a link to that thread in a minute), however my plate design is different and the glass is not uranium glass.
It also 'appears' to be very similar in design, but not colour palate, to a vase in the Hermitage which I'd previously linked my plate to. But the colour palate on that vase is more subtle, paler.
It's difficult to tell because the photo in the Hermitage is not enlargeable or close up on the decor. But certainly the colour scheme is more muted and it is not as decorative in terms of amount of pattern on the vase.
However the overall design idea looks the same and it also has the flying objects scattered around the decoration.
I'm wondering if they are just a different version of the same series in a different colours scheme, or whether another maker has copied the Hermitage vase design? The Hermitage have their vase as Russian 1840's.
I have not been able to link my vase to a Bohemian maker at all either through decor or shape.
There is one possible vase in Das Bohmische Glas that at 70cm appears to be a very similar shape.
It's a completely different decoration though, and no id for decor( although they suggested North Bohemia for decorator) or shape, and c 1870 for date for that one (it's floral).
There is no suggestion for maker and it's not in the Harrach book either. That would not preclude Harrach I don't think. However, given it's such a huge vase, and that patterns are available for Harrach pieces from that period, I would have thought one of the two books would have given an indication of it if there were evidence available.
Date wise, as a generalisation, from the gist from what I read in the Harrach book it seems that hand enamelled pieces in Etruscan style were earlier versions (c 1840/1850s) but as the vogue progressed (1860s) transfer prints became the way forward. On The Gilded Curio site, on the page with a Harrach etruscan black hyalith vase with figure on it, Alisa has commented that there was a resurgence in popularity in Etruscan pieces in the 1920s and Harrach continued making those pieces for a long period. That isn't said in the book as far as I can see. Charles Hajdamach seemed to indicate if I have read correctly, that the vogue for these pieces was over by the 1850's (although Harrach says they were still supplying into the 1860's) and he doesn't mention a resurgence in this Etruscan style at a later date.
So when might this giant vase date to?
And does anyone know who could have made it and for what purpose? Is it an Exhibition piece at that size?
thanks :)
m
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more pics
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this is the same shape as one of the exhibition pieces in the book but the one in the book totals 142cm iirc
http://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/vases/monumental-cut-glass-gilded-vase-alhambra-form/id-f_782479/
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M
Your new vase is awesome! The foot may be a replacement but it doesn't fight with the vase.
Sid
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Thanks Sid :) I believe the foot would have had the meander pattern repeated and then a gold band around it. I'm not up to trying to recreate the meander but I think I might prefer the foot painted in old gold. It looks a bit like it's wearing a boot to me ;D
I've attached a nice article I came across that features some of this period - there are some wonderful decorative pieces in it. I have to say though, thank goodness the fashion for big squashy sofas came in. The whole thing looks pretty uncomfortable to chill out in.
http://wps.pearsoncustom.com/wps/media/objects/7443/7621808/INT210_Ch04.pdf
m
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Another spectacular find m, very wow.
John
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thanks :)
It was a nice surprise that it was uranium glass, I'd not expected that at all.
m
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Just bumping this in case anyone has any ideas on the decoration please?
thanks :)
m
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In my quest to find matches to all of these, I'd completely forgotten about this listing from Dr Fischer Auction
The people aren't identically painted, but then these are all handpainted.
This one has a pale ground that they are all sitting/standing on, mine is pale as well - paler than the example in the Hermitage.
This nightflask also has all the flying bits and pieces in the background and a flying piece of greenery leaves can just be seen on the edge. Mine has this also. Mine also has the peculiar orange brick shaped with yellow edge on it. Another match is that the person on the right looks as though he has a moustache because his mouth has been painted with a peculiar top lip, very thick and slightly turned up at the end. My people have this also :)
I'll add some close up pics of the greenery on mine and one of the top lip to show what I mean.
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?afRedir=true&lotRef=ed1553e63f&scp=c&ri=132
'Lot 132: Nachtflasche mit Stöpsel und Becher Milk Glass Decanter with Stopper and Beaker Imperial Glass Manufactory, St. Petersburg Russian Works of Art & Paintings by Auktionshaus Dr. FischerApril 23, 2009 Heilbronn, Germany Live Auction
Sold'
m
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Harrach made a full gamut from very high quality to lower quality mass produced. it doesn't work to take one piece and judge the entire companies output on it :)
and yes, they did make this style again in the 20's. You'll occasionally find pieces marked Made in Czechoslovakia to prove it even. It's talked about a little in the truitts second book.
This one almost certainly is from the 1850's-70's. might be exhibition, might not be. Might be Harrach, might be Josephinenhuette or the like. hard to say for sure. it is from one of the best makers though.
I'm not sure exactly when they started making creamware with uranium. I don't think it was the earlier portion of that period
edited to add photo, this photo is from the harrach room at Passau
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Hi Alisa
nice to see you posting again and thank you for the picture.
I wasn't judging an entire company's output on one vase :) Just commenting that there was quite a big variation in quality between this huge vase and my Harrach transfer printed vase. Not to say Harrach didn't make my vase although I have nothing yet in any way to give me a suspicion that they might have done.
Yes having done lots of searching, I believe there was a revival of Etruscan interest again early this century. However I haven't found anything in the style of my vase, or the quality of it, that makes me think it dates to that period.
Re Harrach making this style again in the 20's, do you have any pics at all please?
There is nothing in the Harrach book re this period. All it says on page 188 is:
'The popularity of themes from Classical Antiquity continued until the mid 1880s, when painted figural compositions once again began to replace transfer prints.'
The item it shows above this caption is 224 Two Handled Vase 1885 which is bright pink with a gilded charioteer picture and gilded handles:
'White opal glass shaded to pink from lower end,mould blown, stem and both handles hot-shaped. Matte treated, Classical charioteer figure painted in matte, raised gold and silver. Handles and foot matte gilded.'
The decoration and style is nothing like my vase. I suspect that although the theme was still Classical Antiquity, the interpretation and decors using that theme, had moved on from the 1850s and 60s.
With reference the shape of the very large vase in your photo, it is very similar to my vase, but having played around with photographs of my piece to replicate the photo of yours, I think it's different. The stem on mine is slimmer and longer/straighter and the egg shaped body on mine is slimmer than the vase in the Passau I think. But it is very difficult to tell from photos.
The only vases I've found that are similar to mine are a pair converted to lamps, that appear to be the same shape but have slightly different enamelling, all the same theme though. The other is the one in the Hermitage that has similarities in the decor but in a different palette and isn't as ornate as mine. On that one, the rim and neck match my vase, but the rest of the body of that vase is a completely different shape.
The last piece is the Nachtflasche I linked to above where the decor is similar in theme and the people are painted in a similar way facially.
The last thing of note is that I believe every little roundel on my vase (medallions in the hairpieces, decoration on clothes, device in the graphic borders etc ) was originally gilded.
I'm sure an id will turn up one day and thanks for trying to help. I appreciate it :)
m
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The odds of finding an absolutely identical piece to your own is very unlikely. Especially since there is no way to tell for sure what the foot originally looked like.
as I said there is an example of the basalt classic styling in the truitts book from the 20's. it's marked czechoslovakia. I believe the white bodied pieces have been shown from the 20's too with the czechoslovakia mark as well. i'd love to show you examples but this isn't exactly the sort of thing that captures my interest enough to keep a folder. :) it's out there. I don't think yours is from that period. the quality from the 20's isn't high.
I know of 3 possibly 4 or 5 Czech companies making things of this quality, Harrach, Josephinenhuette, and meyrs neffe and possibly loetz (they were doing identical stuff to those three companies early on. not a lot is confirmed from them at this point in time but they were doing it) I also have to imagine Reidel was probably doing the same things as well in this time period but again not a ton is known from them in this time range...
my money is one of those companies. odds are you'll never know for sure.
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Hi Alisa
thanks - all good suggestions for makers and yes it's a long shot on finding the maker.
But I have found a pair of lamps that are the same shape and similar decoration just different details, presumably part of the range. The lamps are also enormous and the same shape so I believe the foot is what would have been my foot. It's difficult to see exactly what it would have looked like though as they have gilded feet surrounding the foot for the lamps. But I think as I said earlier in the thread, that it could be similar to my Harrach transfer printed vase,therefore similar to the large vase you show.
Of course it is possible the Harrach vase is the same shape as photos are very difficult to judge by when things are so similar. The only things that struck me are that the stem and foot on the lamps and my vase are slimmer and longer and the body appears to be slimmer. But as I say, that could just be trying to judge on a photograph. Certainly the Harrach vase looks a similar size by comparison to the other pieces (I'm assuming they are not all minute :) )
Unfortunately, there are no pieces in the Harrach book that have this kind of decoration - yes other Etruscan pieces, but none like this Nachtflasche decoration or my vases at all.
The main link I have to the enamelling is the Nachtflasche set I linked earlier sold at Dr Fischer's as the decoration and the way it's done is so very similar to the people on my vase. It was sold in the Russian auction and the id for it was
Kaiserliche Glasfabrik St. Petersburg, wohl Alexander Briullow (Entwurf), um 1840
Milchglas. Auf der Wandung in bunter Malerei ausgefhrter Dekor: Figurenfries nach antiken Vorlagen. Stand und Hals orange akzentuiert. Goldringe min. berieben. H. 8/15,5 cm (04823017)
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?afRedir=true&lotRef=ed1553e63f&scp=c&ri=132
I'll post if I find anything else and thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
m
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Page 275 of the book La Cristallerie de Clichy, shows the French version of this vase, dated c.1860
It's not the most beautiful vase in the world imho :-X a fair 'mix' of design styles that are not so easy on the eye.
Shows the naked man a little more naked than on mine ;D
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&pg=PA151&dq=la+verre+du+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAGoVChMIp-3js9zRxwIVhxbbCh2bhAXN#v=onepage&q=la%20verre%20du%20clichy&f=false
m
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They have theirs as Russian.
Just adding for future reference (unless their listing disappears).
Same or very similar (they say theirs is 9" wide) size and shape as mine. Same type of hand painted enamelling etc.
http://carltonhobbs.com/portfolio-items/11232-a-large-pair-of-white-opaline-glass-and-polychrome-enamel-vases-in-the-etruscan-style/
Mine also came from the south of England. I can't remember the details now as to whether the seller said mine had been a pair, but iirc the seller was quite concerned about the vase and not wanting it to just be thrown away because it was broken. They had added the wooden foot on mine.
m
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This one is 'attributed to George Woodall,Thomas Webb & Sons' and is £2,200
https://www.mayfairgallery.com/antique-english-opaque-glass-vase-attributed-to-woodall
Just adding for comparison and future reference. No idea if the attribution is correct.