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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: RAY on September 30, 2012, 06:13:34 PM

Title: monart light shade?
Post by: RAY on September 30, 2012, 06:13:34 PM
got this one today with some other glass pieces ...  it measures approx 5.5" high and 5.5" across the rim for the size its quite heavy, the rim has been cut and polished, the black marks/streaks are in the glass

Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on September 30, 2012, 08:29:51 PM
Hi Ray,I am fairly certain it is not Monart (IMHO). The reasons I believe it is not Monart are, first it is not in the Monart lighting catalogue (see link). The inner is wrong as most of Monart light shades were acid etched to help defuse the light, the colours just don't look right and Monart never fire polished their rims.

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBFVL9y
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: RAY on September 30, 2012, 09:43:15 PM
thanks gary ... the rim has not been fire polished just ground polished if you know what i mean.... by look at the drawing in your link wonder if it could be an unfinished drop pendant the 4th one along on the top row , but i trust your expert eye on monart .. so i will keep looking at other possibility's where do i start lol
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 01, 2012, 08:15:26 AM
One possibility is the fake Monart lamps that appeared in 1990s.
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/Fake%20Ysart%20Glassware.htm.
The image below is (IMHO) a fake Monart mushroom lamp sold at my local auction house a couple of years ago, the shade looks very similar to your one.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 01, 2012, 01:25:19 PM
My guts are with you on this one, Gary.
Something just "not quite right" for Monart.
It would still be a lovely thing lit. Good lighting is always popular, no matter who made it.
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 02, 2012, 09:54:07 AM
Below is an photo of shade 4 (quote from Ray,"by look at the drawing in your link wonder if it could be an unfinished drop pendant the 4th one along on the top") and the sizes that particular shade was made in. Your shade seems to be more bullet shaped.
Image reproduced with the kind permission of Bonhams auction house.
Gary

Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 02, 2012, 09:58:05 AM
dribble - one of my favourite colourways - beautifully illustrated by this shape - and even more glorious lit!
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 02, 2012, 10:11:41 AM
It is an exquisite lamp shade in a lovely colour way, but some very major cracks in it or I would have made a bid for it.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 02, 2012, 10:49:08 AM
Major cracks means affordable, Gary.  ::)
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 02, 2012, 05:57:51 PM
It never even got a bid on due to the damage, there was 3 major cracks on the bottom which were right through all layers of the glass and once lit the cracks would be even more pronounced. I am not sure how long it would stay in one piece.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 02, 2012, 06:07:39 PM
I could pretend it was a bowl...
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: nigel benson on October 03, 2012, 12:44:32 AM
I agree - not Monart.

However, what's this? -
Quote
..........and Monart never fire polished their rims.

Really? I'm wondering if a stray word got in there Gary??  ;) :)

Nigel
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 03, 2012, 08:33:31 AM
You got me there Nigel  :), Monart rarely fire polished,is what I should have said, one shape that I know of and that is shape WK.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: flying free on October 03, 2012, 08:35:06 AM
Do you mean Monart rarely fire polished their lampshade rims?  How did they finish them usually please?
m
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 03, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
Very little has been written or published on Monart lighting, apart from I Turner's article in The Journal of The Glass Association and Frank's Ysart glass site and both of these need updating to some extent.
Monart lighting be it the type of- uplighter (image 1) downlighter (image 2) or lamps (image 3) are fairly  rare. So far to date I have not seen any lampshades fire polished, I have two Monart post war mushroom lamps, one pre war lamp base (shape P/13) and two pre war uplighters and none of these are fire polished. Much more research needs to be done on Monart lighting.
Image 2 is infact a Vasart piece which I used as an example of a downlighter.
I don't know the technical terms or the technique for finishing the rim, I assume it is shaped using a tool of some sort in the same way a vase would have been made but with a hole drilled on the top of the downlighter for the bulb holder to fit.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 03, 2012, 11:48:23 AM
Those edges look rounded and fire polished to me  ???
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on October 03, 2012, 12:08:52 PM
I have been using the term fire polished wrongly  :-[ (every day is a school day) the edges are indeed rounded, I was under the impression fire polished meant the glass being polished or buffed smooth. Also shape WK should read ZK earlier in thread.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: flying free on October 03, 2012, 12:26:41 PM
that's ok Gary  ;D  I was just beginning to doubt myself completely.  I did though think I  might be talking about the wrong rim - i.e. I was referring to the rim at the wide edge of the shade (which is firepolished) whereas you may have been referring to the cut edge of the drilled hole for the attachment to the electrics or hanging cord if you see what I mean.  I don't often see firepolished edges to those on the lampshades I've had (various art glass lampshades but not MOnart) - but I think I have occasionally had the odd one ground and then polished.
m
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 03, 2012, 02:19:34 PM
My brother has a fire-polished rim Vasart down-light shade.  ;D
Same basic sort of shape as the one you posted, Gary (I don't think it bulges in quite the same way at the bottom, but that could just be the angle of the pic.) It's white with reddy-orange swirls. Far nicer lit than unlit.
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: nigel benson on October 03, 2012, 07:32:43 PM
Phew, I'm glad that's sorted itself out  ;D

Fire polished = rounded edge.

So, usually shades are fire polished, rather than ground with, or without polishing.

For instance, the top of the base to a pre-war mushroom lamps is ground for the fitting, but the rim to the shade is fire polished (rounded). However, post war 'flange' lamps have both base and shade fire polished. This is the 'rule of thumb'. Just so that it's clear to non officionardos!

Cheers Nigel
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: KevinH on October 06, 2012, 10:15:01 PM
Quote
Fire polished = rounded edge.
In the context of lamp shades and vase or bowl rims, yes. But in the context of basal finishes of items, including some paperweights, it means "the area is smoothed out by the use of heat" (or some such wording).
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: RAY on March 10, 2013, 12:17:25 PM
just an up date , Dave Moir looked at this shade yesterday and he's 99% it's Monart and its the same German orange they used to use
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on March 10, 2013, 01:07:09 PM
Hi Ray as much as I respect Dave Moir's view, I am still of the opinion it is not Monart, for the reasons that I gave earlier in the thread.
If it is the same German orange that Monart used, it is not beyond the realms possibility of other glassworks or even fakers gaining access to that particular colour.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: RAY on March 10, 2013, 03:49:09 PM
yes gary i know what you mean , i know nothing about monart so i do respect your words.... one  question Gary.. in the war years  did Monart get the glass from Germany or did they have other suppliers .. cheers
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: flying free on March 10, 2013, 04:27:14 PM
I'm wondering if this might be a French shade?

I've seen French pieces with this cut and polished rim and the layers of the colour with the transparent casing over the coloured inner layer I think.  And that shape is one that would fit in with some I've seen. 
The other possibility is that it's a newer more contemporary model ala La Rochere type glass.

I can see there are similarities with the 'possible fake' monart mushroom style lamp Gary posted but the dark bits don't look as though they were laid on in the same way.
m
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on March 10, 2013, 05:04:33 PM
 Moncrieff got their coloured enamels from Schuster & Wilhelm of Germany before the Second world war.
When the war started they could no longer obtain their coloured enamels from that source.
 During the war Monart ceased production. After the war Schuster & Wilhelm was situated in East Germany and could no longer source the coloured enamels from there.
After the war they obtained their coloured enamels from Kugler of West Germany.
Ray I spent an  enjoyable evening at Dave Moir house a couple of weeks ago admiring and talking about his glass with him.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 10, 2013, 05:23:29 PM
And Vasart often used coloured enamels they obtained by scraping them off tiles!
Quite incredible ingenuity - but a limited source and choice óf actual colours.

I (personally) assume that's why there is so much distemper green - it was a fashionable colour for bathrooms  - before avocado obviously! 8)
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: millarart on March 18, 2013, 01:16:42 PM
i also do not in anyway think this shade is monart nor ysart, infact not too sure its even scottish, a good few years back i had around 60 plus lamps :o in my collection of monart,vasart,strathearn,perthshire paperweights, including mushrooms , pedestal/ etc etc and a few rare ones and i have never seen this colourway nor the finnish, so i am 100% this is not Ysart glass
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Derek on March 26, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
Hi Sue

Vasart didn't scrape the Vitrolite tiles - the tiles were solid vitrolite.

Dave Moir told me that the tiles were offcuts from a friend of Auggie who
was a glazier. As you say there was a very limited choice of colours - Dave
said the most common offcuts they got were Green, Orange and grey.

They used to stack three or four of the offcuts on a metal plate at the furnace mouth
until they were hot enough to pick up on a puntie iron.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 26, 2013, 04:20:51 PM
Ah-ha! Thanks for that snippet of info, Derek!
I still have a butler sink in my utility room, with what I am assuming is vitriolite surounds. It's not tiles per se, but big sheets of glass, 7mm thick.
This would be the kind of thing? It's the correct distemper/celadon colour (shudder.... I hate that colour!)
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Derek on March 26, 2013, 04:34:37 PM
Hi Sue

Yes that sounds like Vitrolite - but it also came in tiles.
Google Vitrolite and click on Images for Vitrolite - there
are loads of examples

Derek
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 26, 2013, 04:42:55 PM
That's the (vile) stuff!
Perhaps I'm too old to appreciate it. It just conjures up the smell of Vim and mouldering grey floor cloths competing with "aroma of male urinal" to me.
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Derek on March 26, 2013, 04:45:14 PM
I remember Vim well and the big bars of carbolic soap !

Derek
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 26, 2013, 05:12:48 PM
Carbolic soap "burnt reddy umber with white streaks" would have ben a far nicer shade for the vitriolite...
Green vitriolite goes hand-in-hand with Izal water-repellent toilet paper - (which at least did make for good tracing paper, if useless for the function intended) and for cracking the ice in the loo bowl in the mornings and scraping the delightful drawings of Jack-Frost from the window panes   ;D
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: Gary on March 26, 2013, 06:49:58 PM
Vitrolite was manufactured in the UK by Pilkington Glass between 1908 and 1935. It was used extensively in kitchens and bathrooms, due to the fact it was glass and it did not harbour bacteria unlike marble.
The image is of my bathroom (ongoing renovation) with some black vitrolite that I reclaimed from an old house I was working on.
Gary
Title: Re: monart light shade?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 26, 2013, 07:03:51 PM
The black stuff is grand, Gary!
Why didn't Vasart get hold of some of that - it would have set the other colours off  well!