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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => France => Topic started by: Mick the fish on December 20, 2021, 06:21:32 PM

Title: unusual stoppers - ID = Lalique "Pouilly" stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on December 20, 2021, 06:21:32 PM
I have 3 of these stoppers, one is ground two are not. They are clear glass but the raised fish are a pale green which does not show very well in my images. They measure aprx. 6cm tall, the fishy part is 4.5cm diameter the lower part is 2.5cm. Each stopper weighs aprx. 128grms. Being a keen angler I bought them and have wondered ever since as to who made them and where they come from and what they went into?
Any info would be appreciated.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 20, 2021, 09:42:34 PM
agree, very interesting, but regret no positive idea as to maker other than suggesting Lalique.    They often created large ball-shaped stoppers in order to show some creative moulding etc., and sometimes these had added colour  -  I think fish were among the motifs they used.        Failing which one of the other French makers of decorative bottles - either scent of booze - from the early deco period perhaps.                 Take it there aren't any matching Nos. on the stubs?

sorry this is a bit lacking in helpful information.   
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on December 21, 2021, 09:43:33 AM
Thanks for your reply, I had wondered if Lalique but the pale green colour didn't seem right, I associate Lalique with clear not colour. But as you say they did sometimes add colour I wonder as the moulding does look like Lalique.

Two of the stoppers do have numbers on the stubs, the one in my image is marked 34 one of the others has 14. The one with the ground stub has no number.

Thanks again for your help it's really appreciated.

Regards Mick
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 21, 2021, 09:52:23 AM
Hi  -  the presence of matching Nos. doesn't of course give us any clues as to maker but the type of script might just push us in the direction of suggesting Continental or not.        There's no doubt that over the Channel they write Nos. a little different to the U.K., or come to that the States too.         Their 'hand' if often a tad more florid than us Anglo Saxons - cross bars on sevens etc.
But these are good looking and interesting to own  -  the fish are stylized we know, but they made me think of Piranha maybe ;D
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on December 21, 2021, 10:45:24 AM
The script looks Anglo Saxon what do you think?

The fish look more like Carp to me.

I have attached 2 images of the stubs.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 21, 2021, 10:52:01 AM
agree the script does look a bit northern Europe ish ...........    perhaps I was imagining they had more teeth  -  carp sounds a more likely source of a stylized fish.               Another possibility is perhaps Czechoslovakian.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: flying free on December 26, 2021, 10:31:58 PM
It really reminds me of Lalique perfumes like this

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8d/ac/02/8dac0238694169d2d3b4a8c72947e810.jpg

Some interesting bottles and finishes here as well. 
https://www.1stdibs.co.uk/buy/rene-lalique-perfume-bottles/

I'm trying to think what maker might have done a similar effect but nothing coming to mind.

It's gorgeous.  Beautiful movement.

m
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on December 27, 2021, 10:45:12 AM
Thanks for the links, very interesting, the more I look at these early Lalique items the more I think these stoppers look very similar.

As you say beautiful movement.

Mick
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 27, 2021, 04:35:05 PM
There was a "big moment" on Antiques Roadshow when some scarce Lalique vase with green staining was found.
The person who owned it had bought the plant that was in it at a boot sale.  :)

Found a colour piccie here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/4JlYjFWF1NSVGHlxZDh9lRS/eric-knowles
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on December 27, 2021, 07:07:45 PM
Hi Sue thanks for the link, it is a similar colour just need to find the bottles for the stoppers to go in now!!

Appreciated Mick
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 27, 2021, 07:13:46 PM
The way the green appears on the pate de verre piece is very like your stoppers too.   8)

Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 27, 2021, 08:49:46 PM
Pate-de-verre is usually quite distinctive in appearance, and many of the period pieces were without a cavity in the sense of being hollow, so perhaps it might lend itself to making stoppers.    Sue, to which of the pieces are you referring as being pate-de-verre?
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 27, 2021, 09:18:54 PM
The rarebit Lalique plant pot found on AR in 2008.
I posted a link which contained an image of it. I remembered it had mucky/mossy looking green bits on it, like these stoppers do.
It was to confirm Lalique did use a green finish like the stoppers have.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: flying free on December 27, 2021, 10:26:04 PM
Can you add some clearer photographs please?

ok forget that - I enlarged it.  When you say the fish are green - do you mean the fish are clear but inbetween them has been enamelled with green?

That's what it looks like to me.  There was another French make that used this technique.
Apparently a Daum name/make/line.  I sold my beautiful vase before I realised it might have been linked to Daum but mine had orange enamel and butterflies.

Thank you.
m
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 28, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
I'm not inclined to thinking that either one or other, or both, of these stoppers are pate-de-verre  -  not that I've ever owned glass made in that method - but have always assumed stoppers (solid ones at least) have been mould formed originally.             Some of course are then cut whilst others are left to show the design incorporated into the mould, then further worked to get the stub to fit the bottle.                              Pate-de-verre is so named from the method of using 'glass paste' - though literally it was apparently crushed/powdered glass - then heated until the glass fused to form a solid  -  as a method it was time consuming and mostly a one-off or very limited edition process.
In appearance, it lends itself to opaque finishes, usually of a dense colour with one colour running into another in a way that makes for a unique and arty appearance  -  the majority of the pieces are signed in some way.         Seems the French borrowed the idea from the Egyptians - so nothing new then  -  but not associated with clear glass pieces.
You can't imagine these stoppers would have been made in the 'powder' fashion, and it's a fact that Lalique's work, whilst stunning with sepia tints and moulding to die for, was the result of press-moulding techniques. 
Quite how Rene achieved his tinted colour shades over the clear glass I've no idea  -  perhaps he coated the inside of the moulds with metalic oxides etc.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 28, 2021, 10:16:55 AM
obviously too early in the day to be thinking clearly .......................    first line should more correctly read ...........  "......... have been mould formed originally using molten glass as opposed to powdered glass."
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 28, 2021, 02:38:56 PM
I was not suggesting the stoppers were pate de verre. It just happens that the AR bit with green bits was.

It was the presence of these darkish green "bits" on Lalique I was confirming.
Nothing more.

On the AR bit and on these stoppers, the green is kind of stuck around the edges and in deeper parts, exactly like grime or dirt would stick.  ;D
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: flying free on December 28, 2021, 02:51:16 PM
Paul I agree with your comments as a general thought on these pieces and including these stoppers and would have agreed it was unlikely to be pate de verre  and more likely molded, however, Lalique I think  did make some Pate-de-verre pieces and regarding the AR vase specifically this is what was said about the vase on the AR:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/south_of_scotland/7789458.stm

' ...They'd dumped it in the attic after the plant in it died and were about to throw it away when the show rolled in to town."
The vase turned out to be a 1929 work - Feuilles Fougeres - by the renowned French designer and major Art Nouveau figure Rene Lalique.

It stands just 12.5cm (5in) high and was made by a process called cire perdue.

It involves a wax model being covered in plaster before it is heated and the liquid wax replaced with molten glass.

Once it has been cooled the plaster mould is destroyed to reveal the item inside.


The amazing discovery tale turns out to have an even happier ending than Mr Knowles' estimate.

The vase was sold at auction with Christie's earlier this year for 32,450 - more than its Roadshow valuation..'



I've not looked up the difference between Cire perdue and Pate-de-verre techniques but this explanation has reminded me I should do that. 

I'm not sure the stoppers would fall into this type of making because would they have used this expensive technique for stoppers?  but they might have done?
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 28, 2021, 03:28:24 PM
The stoppers look like good old plain ordinary moulded glass.

I really did not intend for anybody to get the construction of the AR vase (which has some green bits on it) mixed up with the construction of the stoppers (which also have some green bits on them).

I was merely confirming the presence of some green bits on Lalique.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Paul S. on December 28, 2021, 04:15:53 PM
don't even think you were giving us a bum steer Sue - we're (me) quite capable of getting the wrong end of the stick without the slightest help from others ;D ;D.           My scribbling about p-d-v. was simply in case others here might have been vaguely interested in how that process worked.              I agree with you that the stoppers here are simply moulded thingies, made in the usual pressed method of construction as per most stoppers.
What is intriguing - and which it seems we are ignorant of -  is how Lalique and his contemporaries might have 'coloured' some of the 'high relief' parts of his moulded designs  -  the 'appearance' of p.d.v. is unlike Lalique's press mouldings.

m - would agree very unlikely these stoppers are made either p.d.v., or cire perdue (lost wax) - both methods were v. high end one-off jobs.            Not that I'd know the difference, but the latter method is the unique process, and the mould can be used literally once only, whereas the French guys did manage to come up with a p.d.v. system with a re-usable mould.
I've not the slightest idea if/whether Lalique made p.d.v. pieces  -  the names associated with that process it seems were generally Almaric Walter (most prolific apparently), Daum, Argy-Rousseau and Decorchemont.         When you think of the quantity of pieces turned out by Lalique, it's unlikely the factory could have produced that volume had they been working solely with traditional p.d.v. methods, and my reference source lacks any mention of Lalique making p.d.v., though that may simply be an oversight. 
As you say, for cire perdue the casing was plaster, but assume for p.d.v. the casing might be metal, plaster or even clay  ..............   when you've read the blurb, come back and explain to us please.  ;)

As for the AR piece, I'm having trouble understanding this piece as an example of lost wax, but what do I know about French deco art glass from the late '20s ;)
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: taylog1 on December 28, 2021, 04:31:34 PM
You could try here, either to try and find it, or even to ask them (they have a free service); i did skim through but couldn't see it.
https://rlalique.com/

Gareth
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: glassobsessed on December 28, 2021, 05:15:25 PM
They are stoppers for the Pouilly decanter it seems:

https://rlalique.com/rene-lalique-pouilly-decanter

The glasses are fabulous too! Clearer images can be found with a search using google images.

John

Lost wax is simply the translation of cire perdue.
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: flying free on December 28, 2021, 05:20:29 PM
'As for the AR piece, I'm having trouble understanding this piece as an example of lost wax, but what do I know about French deco art glass from the late '20s'

Me too  :-\
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: flying free on December 28, 2021, 05:22:24 PM
They are stoppers for the Pouilly decanter it seems:

https://rlalique.com/rene-lalique-pouilly-decanter

The glasses are fabulous too! Clearer images can be found with a search using google images.


John

Lost wax is the translation of Cire perdue.

Ooh that's an amazing find :)
Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: glassobsessed on December 28, 2021, 05:28:57 PM
Description of the lost wax process here plus some Lalique designs made this way:

https://rlalique.com/rene-lalique-cires-perdues

Title: Re: unusual stoppers
Post by: Mick the fish on January 04, 2022, 07:42:30 PM
Thanks to all for the information, I now know what they are. I am really impressed with glass messages and how helpful everyone is.  Your knowledge is unbelievable.

Mick