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Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by Anne Tique on Today at 08:35:43 AM »
Hay Paul,

I guess that word must be Scandinavian as it's not Dutch, perhaps Norwegian. Zirat I can imagine to be translated as jewellery or something like that, as in Dutch it's spelled 'sieraad',  pronounced similarly and flasker must translate as bottles ... any Scandinavian members here who can confirm?

Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by Paul S. on Today at 08:18:14 AM »
Christine's reasons for suggesting modern sound rational and I'd be tempted to agree with the indication of C20, on the basis of those thoughts.

I've had a look in McConnell's 'Decanter book which was given as the primary reference source in the first link from m, and the shape of these things seem to have remained fairly consistent with their twin handled shaft and globe design, rigaree decoration and the use frequently of  engraving showing diving birds and windmills.           Examples are known with one handle and some without any, and some with stoppers too.

Quoting from Andy McConnell's book (page 405 - 406), when speaking of revival/reproduction styles etc. he writes  ...............

""Salviati's most popular reproduction was a thin-walled, twin handled shaft-and-globe encased within a series of pinched vertical ribs, and often crudely engraved.   An ancient form, known in Norway as a Ziratflasker (plate 569; see also plate 220), numerous other makers were soon copying Salviati's reproduction.     According to Eastlake in 1868, versions made across Europe 'are now produced at the price of a common decanter' (plate 571).""

McConnell's ref. to his plate 569 shows original and revived examples of Ziratflasker  -  1: an amethyst (although to me it looks like cranberry:)) Venise example, probably Low Countries, c1700;     2: Dark green example crudely engraved with diving birds, Bohemian, 1880s or 1930s;    3: Colourless Venise example, late 17th century.
In numerical order these pieces shown have  -  one handle  -  two handles  -  without handles, and most of the early examples look to have had a quite substantial 'kick' in the base.

McConnell also includes a reproduction of an illustration from a 1936 H-O. catalogue, for which the original catalogue caption reads:
"8240 - DUTCH SPIRIT BOTTLE WITH STOPPER.  -  Engraved Vine   - Height 11.1/2 in. -  42/- pair (Sterling two pounds and ten pence in decimal)".
The authors own text accompanying this illustration reads:
""Plate 571. Illustration of a 'Dutch' spirit bottle' from Hill-Ouston's 1936 wholesale catalogue.   It is decorated with engraved diving bird, similar to those on Plate 569/2""

Finally, McConnell's book reproduces copy of a Punch (C19 British mildly satirical weekly magazine) cartoon showing dinner guests seated at table on which the distinct shape of a Ziratflasker can be seen.          Part of the caption reads  "Plate 570.   Venetian revival Ziratflasker were sufficiently recognisable by 1886 to become an easily identified decanter form for a Punch cartoonist."           

Shame that Andy McConnell's book isn't more widely available - we can't reproduce the images here of course - so impossible to appreciate the pictures shown in his book from words alone.

Sorry - had to revise some of this wording  .............    does the name 'Ziratflasker' have an easily translatable meaning, in English. :)

Ref.  'The DECANTER An Illustrated History of Glass from 1650.  -  Andy McConnell  -  2004.
Invaluable reference source for anything to do with decanters and much else besides relating to the history of glass - truly a marvellous book.      All credit for the above information is to Andy McConnell and his book  -  none of this information is mine in origin.
Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by Lustrousstone on Today at 06:26:39 AM »
I think I would go with 1936 and Hill Ouston for several reasons. The pontil mark is suspiciously rough for a start and looks to have been done with a relatively modern coarse grinding wheel, as per modern Chinese and some Italian stuff; if it was genuine period, it would either have a snapped pontil mark or be done with a wheel of the same grade as that used for the engraving. Why would they have a coarse wheel? The metal also looks too clear. The pair are too identical and look a pretty fair match to that auction catalogue. I suspect the windmill is a fantasy or naive windmill too, so may not be a good pointer for origin
Jan Exnar's designs are definitely round and we can feel that he is at his center.
Definitivamente los diseños de Jan Exnar son redondos y podemos sentir que él está en su centro.
Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by flying free on Yesterday at 11:44:09 PM »
Yes (I love Holland    :D ) but that windmill doesn't look quite like a Dutch windmill to me really.
If I look at images online they don't seem to have a square house with a roof on them, the shape is more triangular.
or this

 And also the windmill sails, there appear to be four on the Dutch windmills and they look bigger than those on the engraving whereas  the engraving seems to have four shorter ones plus maybe two more hidden?

This one is Czech and has five sails

I'm thinking maybe  a Czech windmill shape to the building?

or maybe Slovenia?

I can find windmills with six sails in England and have found one in France.  But the building doesn't look the same shape as the engraving and neither the size of the sails

Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by Anne Tique on Yesterday at 11:31:38 PM »
I would not know if they are  :D it's the seller in the Dutch link who says so ... even though I haven't set a step over the border for a while, they do have a lot of windmills and they're part of the history and culture, plenty of boats with all the rivers and canals, a couple of birds can be found too but nothing with vino except for consuming it... no vineyards in NL, or definately not at that time, be it 1800 or 1935.
Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by flying free on Yesterday at 11:13:20 PM »
are they Dutch?  :)

I've always wondered.

Windmills can be seen in many European countries I think?  not just Holland. So I've always wondered where they originated, or where the design originated.

So possibly now is the time to embarrass myself and put forward my thoughts to be shot down in flames  ;D

The monogrammed script M is the same as the monogram for Maria Feodorovna who was married to Paul of Russia.

On a pediment on the Pavlosk Palace there is a combined monogram for Paul and Maria Feodorovna that is exactly the same M.

see on the left here also the monogram cypher for Maria Feodorovna and also on the right

'Diamond imperial cyphers of the Empress Maria Feodorovna, consort of Paul I (left),
the Empress Elizabeth Alexeievna, consort of Alexander I, in combination with the monogram of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna (right), and the Empress Maria Feodorovna, consort of Alexander III (center)'

and also here

The palace also had trellis work on it - this is a recent photograph:

and she was very into horticulture and flowers with a huge knowledge apparently

I'm aware this is a sounding a little bit farfetched,however I thought it 'interesting' that finding an engraved egg is so rare and that it happened to have the initials MF on it.

I don't know how far from the truth I am with this (possibly a very long way  ;D ) and there is a phrase for making evidence fit your ideas (can't remember it at the moment) but ...  - confirmation bias is the phrase I'm looking for ...

On the other hand the design of the basket and the birds has some similarities with French handpainted opaline beakers dating to the early 1800s so it might be French (see Leon Darnis Baguiers et Verre a Boire pp115 for example).  However none of the birds I can see in there have crests.

But then, Paul and Maria Feodorovna did a European tour taking in France in 1781

Malta Glass / Re: Opinion on Boffo and Rosenthal
« Last post by MaltaGlass on Yesterday at 10:31:02 PM »
Noted with Thanks ;D
Glass / Re: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?
« Last post by Anne Tique on Yesterday at 10:15:51 PM »
I have never seen them (funny that, being Dutch) so I couldn't tell the difference, but I'm sure you're right.
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