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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: Connie on August 09, 2005, 08:09:47 PM

Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 09, 2005, 08:09:47 PM
I have this amberina toothpick which I have tried and tried to identify. I finally settled on it being either NEG or Mt. Wash.  Today I got an e-mail that it was newer and Italian. The person did not provide a reference to why they thought that.

Here is the toothpick - I apologize for the link to one of my active shop items but I am away on travel which means I don't have access to my original photos.

http://www.grayhorseglass.com/items/425051/item425051store.html#item

What are your thoughts on the origin?

Of course, I want my representation and description to be accurate.

Thank you for your help.
Title: toothpick
Post by: chuggy on August 09, 2005, 09:40:44 PM
Hi Connie
Certainl;y doesn't look very Italian to me.
Paul
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: glasswizard on August 10, 2005, 07:35:52 AM
Connie, I agree with Chuggy. I wonder if the person was thinking of the Italian Burmese that came out several years back. The problem with their Burmese was in several areas, the thickness of the glass, the color was not quite right and the tool marks for crimping was very noticeable. In other words the quality just was not there. That said, your piece looks like nice quality. I have looked through my books on Toothpicks and am coming up empty handed. I will admit I  have never seen Satin Amberina and the shape of yours does not match the known shapes of Amberina Toothpicks pictured in the books. So for me its still a bit of a puzzler, a nice puzzler at that. Sorry not to be of more help. Terry
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 10, 2005, 08:27:51 AM
I heard back from the person who is the founder a toothpick collector'society, this is what she said (some words ediited for privacy)

Quote
Pauline
Griscom (email: xxxx) published a small book called Is It Old? Or
Is It New? and she pictures quite a few of the Murano toothpick holders.
There have also been numerous articles in the Toothpick Bulletin and other
antique-related publications.  Most of the Murano toothpick holders can be
identified by their shape.

I can't provide a specific reference, but hope this info helps.


I will contact Pauline Griscom and the original e-mailer and ask them to join this discussion.  

Again I am away from home and can't hold the item in question, but if I remember correctly it shows considerable wear to the bottom.

So how new is new?
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: lhazeldahl on August 10, 2005, 09:55:25 PM
Connie,
   I don't know anything about origins and such, but your little toothpick is just great.  I think your discription sounds fine, and, by the way, I love your site.  Be safe in your travels, we need you back!!    :D

Linda
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Sid on August 10, 2005, 11:35:53 PM
Hello:

I have the Griscom book and she shows your toothpick on the very first page of her book.  The page is titled "Contemporary Toothpicks" with no information beyond that.

I hadn't thought of her book before the posting above as most of it pertains to pressed toothpick holders.  It is an excellent book.

I think an email to Pauline would be a good idea.

Sid
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 11, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Thank you, Sid.  I have e-mailed Pauline and invited her to the forum.

I would be interested in her attribtution to it being a comtemporary piece.  I am assuming that someone found one with a label but you know about assumptions  :roll:
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: mrvaselineglass on August 11, 2005, 11:05:10 PM
I think AMBERINA might be the wrong descriptor.  It looks like BURMESE to me.  There is also a lot of satin burmese that was made.  Burmese will glow a bright green under a UV blacklight.  Amberina will not glow green.
You might want to put a UV light on it and see what happens.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 12, 2005, 08:58:58 AM
Mr. Vaseline I respectively disagree.  This toothpick looks nothing like Burmese.

Amberina is transparent glass which is red (or shades of red, orange, fuschia) shading to amber.

Burmese is an opaque glass which is salmon (deep pink) fading to a creamy yellow.

Maybe my pictures are just really bad, but this piece was transparent red to amber glass that was then satinized (acid etched).
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 12, 2005, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: "grayhorse"
this piece was transparent red to amber glass that was then satinized (acid etched).

 
So why is this definitely not Burmese?   :?  

Can you explain the difference?

Leni
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 12, 2005, 09:32:06 AM
Leni - are you talking about amberina or satin glass?

New England Glass began producing amberina glass in 1883.  Satin glass was also very popular in the 1880s in the US and most was produced in WV, PA, NY and New England.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 12, 2005, 09:39:09 AM
Sorry, Connie, I got confused and so I edited my post  :oops:

I don't understand why you say it has to be satinised Amberina, rather than Burmese.  What is the difference in the production of these types of glass?  :?  

Again, I'm afraid I'm showing my ignorance of American made glass  :oops:  :roll:

Leni
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 12, 2005, 09:39:21 AM
Leni - The easiest way is to show you.

 Amberina Glass (http://www.grayhorseglass.com/cgi-bin/search1.cgi?keyword=amberina&dealer=grayhorse&fromtrocadero=0)


 Burmese  (http://www.grayhorseglass.com/cgi-bin/search1.cgi?keyword=burmese&dealer=grayhorse&fromtrocadero=0)

Both are color struck glass.  The deeper red or rose color is formed when the  piece is reheated. For instance, just the top of a vase or the top of a tumbler.

One of the glass artists that post here can maybe give us some information on the difference in the glass formulas between the 2 types of glass.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 12, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
Leni -

I think I understand what you are asking now. If both types of glass are pink to yellow shaded and Burmese is opaque and Amberina is transparent, then why is my piece not Burmese?  Does that sum up your question?  I think it is basically what Mr. Vaseline (sorry I don't remember your real name) was thinking also.

IMHO - there is a difference.  Amberina glass always starts out life as a transparent glass which may become opaque or translucent through further treatment ie. satin finish by acid


On the other hand Burmese glass starts out life as a opaque glass (it is never transparent)but  it can also be shiny (see my shiny Burmese vase in the links above) or more commonly is a matte finish (see the other pieces in my link.) which is result of acid finishing also.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 12, 2005, 09:57:06 AM
Thank you, Connie  :D

However, I was further confused when I 'googled' and found this in 'The Journal of Antiques and Collectables':
Quote
Mount Washington Glass...by William C. Marcoux Jr
In 1884, Mount Washington began using the name, Amberina, for a new glassware they were producing. It was a heat sensitive glass, meaning that when reheated during production the portion reheated changes color. This glass was made by adding gold to an amber glass mixture. When completed the glass shaded from amber to red. Shading varied depending on the duration of the reheating. This was an extremely popular product. New England Glass Company, however, was producing a similar ware at the same time and under the same name. A lawsuit ensued and the result was that New England Glass Company was allowed to keep the name, Amberina, and Mount Washington was forced to use a different name. They chose to call their ware Rose Amber and on May 25, 1886, they were issued a patent for that name. Rose Amber was made in many forms and occasionally was etched, pressed, cut or decorated with applied Rose Amber glass. It is nearly impossible to distinguish between pieces made by these two factories with the exception of the pieces with applied rigaree and wishbones, which are uniquely Mount Washington forms. Recent findings indicate that Mount Washington was likely producing this glassware before New England, but had not applied for a patent in a timely fashion.

On December 15, 1885, Mount Washington was granted a patent for a glassware called Burmese. It is believed that this glass had been made for several years before that date. It is a homogeneous heat sensitive glass, shading from lemon yellow to salmon pink. Burmese was discovered serendipitously by Frederick Shirley when he was filling in for an ailing glassmaker in 1881. Mr. Shirley had devised formulas for making glass but had not blown glass. He was working with a mixture of ruby glass and had trouble keeping the gold in the mixture from sinking to the bottom so he added some uranium oxide to the mix, and Burmese was born. Like all blown glass, Burmese is shiny in its original form. The tastes of the day, however, favored a soft satin finish which was created by exposing the object to acid. Burmese was sold in both. The shiny finish was marketed as the natural finish, and the satin finish as the plush finish.


Leni  :?
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: mrvaselineglass on August 12, 2005, 12:20:32 PM
The original photo looked like a rich pink at the top and yellow at the bottom. I could not see through the glass, due to the satin finish.  That is why I was confused.  my mistake.  

Dave Peterson
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: KevinH on August 12, 2005, 01:15:15 PM
Hi folks,

Leni's quote about the "dispute" between Mt Washington and New England adds some interesting extra snippets to what is stated in various books. But while reading it I wondered if a basic question had been asked / answered before.

The Amberina patent was taken out by Joseph Locke for Libbey's New England Glass Company (a year after he emigrated to the US from England). But was Amberina also made, regardless of the US patent, in the UK and Europe? Or perhaps just marketed under the name, if not actually made as such?

Just wondering, really, because much glass in "UK collector fairs" that looks anything like 'red-and-amber' is usually labelled up as "Amberina", and I wondered if some may have been UK or European made.

--------------------
Also, on the subject of "heat sensitive" glass (needing "striking" to achieve the result), the equally interesting thread back in April on "Bluerina Revisted", very usefully discussed this. Check it out here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1247.0.html
---------------------
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2005, 01:47:41 PM
Both Burmese and Amberina (the old Amberina) used gold not selenium as the colorant just like cranberry glass.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 12, 2005, 03:24:20 PM
Glen -

But that is a mis-use of the term amberina in reference to Fenton pieces.  Fenton made Ruby glass in the 1920s which had selenium as the colorant.  As I said before old Ruby does tend to have some yellow around the edges or in the middle since it is also a heat struck glass.  BUT Fenton never called this color amberina.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Anonymous on August 15, 2005, 07:57:21 PM
I heard back from Pauline Griscom.  She says my little toothpick is Murano and that she can tell my the shape. She didn't give me a reason - such as finding one with a label, saw one made  :wink:

She just recommended I buy her book  :roll:


Since I really don't have that much interest in toothpick holders I can't see buying a book specifically on them.  I think I will just donate this little piece to Goodwill.
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Connie on August 16, 2005, 11:09:16 AM
Thank you to "guest" who posted this link in another thread

http://www.glass.co.nz/rosebowls.htm


Although it is about rosebowls, I think it begins to answer some of my questions about the amberina toothpick.  It must be one of the historical reproductions made in Murano.  When I get home (I am traveling again), I will feel it to see if it is gritty.

Also in the link is a good example of a plated amberina piece.

Glen - In response to Fenton and amberina.  As I said in another thread several months ago, Fenton only began making glass which they call amberina around 2002.  They produced a satin amberina vase with hand painted poppies as part of their Connossieur collection. Then in 2003 they introduced the amberina line that you showed.

I did go back and look in my Fenton books which cover their early production (carnival, stretch, opalescent, etc.) and there is a color referred to as amberina in the book. But I see no evidence that Fenton made other patterns in amberina.

It would be interesting to find out if the carnvial glass pieces were truly made as amberina or are they ruby red pieces which show an incomplete color strike.

You have also confirmed what I was saying about old amberina (Libbey, NEG) being a gold formula and ruby glass being a selenium formula.

Also thank you for the additional info on Fenton Colonial Orange.  I thought that was the case in the color production - it is almost an imcomplete color strike of ruby. In the 2nd Fenton Compencdium, there is a good section showing the color variations of Fenton Colonial Orange.

Sorry for combining several different threads but they were all kind of inter-related.  8)
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 16, 2005, 11:27:03 AM
Quote from: "grayhorse"
Sorry for combining several different threads but they were all kind of inter-related.  8)

Certainly were, Connie!   :D

Thank you very much indeed for sorting out all sorts of confusions for me!  :shock: Many mysteries have been made clear to me at last, and I feel I've really learned a lot!  :D

Leni
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 16, 2005, 01:54:35 PM
Quote from: "Glen"
My point is that it does not matter what Fenton called it…..if it is amberina in appearance and by definition, than it is amberina.

While I can seeyour point, Glen, isn't there a possibility that problems could occur if you desribe something as 'Amberina' and a buyer argues that it isn't, because their definition is more specific?   :shock:  

I mean, if there was a law suit back in 1884 or whenever it was, couldn't it be argued that only the winner - New England Glass - can truly be called 'Amberina'?  :?

I know there is a problem with 'vaseline' glass, because some people only use the term to refer to the 'yellowy' vaseline glass and others use it to describe *any* uranium glass, or even any glass with any sort of opalescence!  

There are continuing (and sometimes heated)  'debates'  :roll:  about the 'true' definition of 'vaseline' glass and it can cause difficulties, in the way I can see the term 'Amberina' is causing some - er .... 'debate' - here!   :oops:

Leni
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Leni on August 16, 2005, 03:35:09 PM
I see, Glen.  So you are saying that the term 'Amberina' is now used as a generic term to describe glass of this colour - it has passsed into the vernacular, in fact  :shock:

Now I understand! (I think!  :oops:  :roll: )

Thank you  :D

Leni
Title: Amberina Toothpick - American or Italian?
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 10:32:55 PM
Glen -

I don't think we are disagreeing as much as it seems  :lol:

What I have been trying to point out is the original amberina was a heat struck glass containing gold where the pink/red more resembles cranberry (which is a gold content heat struck glass).  But the term amberina has now become commonly used to describe any glass which shades from red to gold or reverse as in reverse amberina. As Leni pointed out it is like the more broad use of the term vaseline.

The problem with people using the term amberina to refer to any glass that shades from red to yellow is that most people think of the reddish orange glass fading to yellow (which we agree is selenium glass) as amberina and fail to recognize the old amberina for what it is.  But wait ...  maybe that isn't a bad thing because then those who do recognize it can buy it cheap  :lol:


BTW - That is my little toothpick in the GA Live Auction.  I forgot it was scheduled. It has been in the upload for over a month - way before all this started  :oops: