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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on February 18, 2010, 03:41:06 PM

Title: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses - ID = Whitefriars C438 Sherry Set
Post by: Bernard C on February 18, 2010, 03:41:06 PM
Mid C20 Cut Crystal Decanter + Glasses Set

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0835.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0835.jpg)


(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0830.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0830.jpg)
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0828.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0828.jpg)


(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0831.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0831.jpg)

Click any image to enlarge in new window

Help, please, with attribution, date range, pattern number and/or name, and any other information.   Tricky, this one, as the three row interlocking diamond pattern was made by most or all of the larger British cut glass manufacturers, each adding their own little flourish to the pattern, here a three-cut fan in each top valley.   For example Walsh added a single vertical cut upwards from each peak (reversed for some shapes).

Measurements:
  • Decanter: h to rim 9", h to top of stopper 12½", max d 5", foot d 3 5/8", w 3lb 1½oz 1409g.
  • Glasses: h 3 7/8", max d 2", av w 3oz 90g.

  • Notable features:
  • Large central feature ground out and polished pontil mark on the decanter, like a S&W deluxe finish.
  • Fluted foot, particularly to the glasses, like a short epergne flute.   I can't work out how it was made.
  • Slightly squashed spherical knop stem on the glasses.
  • Stopper No. "6" neatly engraved on the side of the stopper insert, and on the inner slope of the rim.
  • Fat hollow spire-shaped stopper.
  • The lovely cut striations, typical of hand cutting, and adding extra sparkle, are clearly visible, so this set was either hand polished or quite lightly acid polished.
  • No maker's mark, so probably either from a maker like S&W who rarely marked their glass, or an order from a trade buyer who didn't want their glass marked.

  • ... and finally ...

    Looks to me mid C20, from about 1930 at the earliest.

    Any ideas or thoughts?

    TIA — Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Frank on February 18, 2010, 08:14:28 PM
    Edinburgh Crystal... Oban perhaps? Some shown on SG site.
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: jonchellycain on February 18, 2010, 08:44:52 PM
    Cant tell you anything about the set, but just had to say your pics are fab,, and how the heck did you get them on here like that  ;D
    michelle
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 19, 2010, 04:20:25 AM
    Edinburgh Crystal... Oban perhaps? Some shown on SG site.

    Frank — I'm ashamed to say that I still can't access SG.   The old boiler is being serviced later today, so, unless someone ids the set, it will probably be Saturday before I can get to a system that will allow me access.

    Michelle — If you hit the quote button, top right of my post, you will see that I used a bbcode table.   Also, it's just about the simplest table possible with just one row containing two cells.   The first cell, on the left, contains image1, three line breaks to give you the horizontal gap, and image3 centred.   The second cell contains image2 centred, three line breaks to give you the horizontal gap, and image4.   This is a special case of the more usual situation where you will need a third cell/column in between containing spaces to give you a vertical gap, not necessary here as I was working with two landscape and two portrait images which interlock nicely.   The whole table was also centred.

    Notes:
  • You can put spaces and line breaks between the table and tr tags, and between the tr and td tags, for making the code rather more clear.   bbcode ignores these.   Don't try any other characters.
  • The center tag works fine on images and tables, but the right align tag doesn't, it's only for text.

  • I made one error.   My total table width was 800 pixels, and the maximum should be not much more than 700 pixels.   Apologies to those with a smaller display.

    There is another example here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22938.0.html), with a spacer column in between.   Note how the column with text in it expands to fill the space available.

    Michelle, why not try it?

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: johnphilip on February 19, 2010, 07:24:17 AM
    The small trumpet bell foot looks very Whitefriars , is the knopf round like a marble or more disc shape? the cut is also like W/Fs but i am not sure about the decanter because the W/Fs one i have all have cut stoppers, also i assume its not marked and most W/Fs isnt . :sleep: on a second look the whole shape of the glasses looks W/Fs .
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Frank on February 19, 2010, 10:35:46 AM
    Only have a very few EC and no exact matches Oban was introduced in the 50s and is not quite right (http://www.glasscatalogue.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/610146f95f15bbe0336b3950867d50cd.jpg)
    But stopper shape and type is not untypical of EC. They have a huge range and I probably show less than !% of that so far.
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Paul S. on February 19, 2010, 02:19:56 PM
    sorry, can't help with attribution  -  but just out of curiosity do the stopper and body have a matching No., which is usually the case on quality
    items like this.   Won't give you a maker of course, but might possibly indicate one period more than others.      C19 Nos.tend to be rather larger and
    perhaps more flowery  -  whereas later Nos. become more discreet and smaller     Just a thought  -  and it's always something worth checking anyway when looking at decanters as it tells you instantly it the bits are a real pair (assuming there was a No. in the first place!)   Paul S.
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 20, 2010, 08:43:36 AM
    Frank — That's most useful.   I am coming to the conclusion that the three row interlocking diamond pattern by the larger British cut glass manufacturers was quite deliberately made with these individual variations.   I've found two more variants on this theme, one by Stuart with a delightful Knyesque touch.

    Paul — See my original post:

    ...
  • Stopper No. "6" neatly engraved on the side of the stopper insert, and on the inner slope of the rim.
  • ...

    The "6" was engraved in the small, mid C20 style as a single curved stroke, unlike earlier stopper numbers which, as you say, were larger, and were often engraved as a series of straight lines, forming numerals like those on a pocket calculator display.   There is an earlier example here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22938.0.html), where you can see that the stopper number 2 has been engraved as a "z".

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Paul S. on February 20, 2010, 09:23:56 PM
    sorry  -  shud go a bit slower and read things properly.     and I'm always complaining about other people who do the same :-[    Paul S.
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 21, 2010, 07:56:23 AM
    Paul — No need for apologies — I found your point valuable as it hadn't occurred to me before that inscribed numbers could be very roughly dated by their size and style.

    Frank — The Walsh version is illustrated in the Glass Museum, the article John Walsh Walsh Glass by Eric Reynolds (http://www.theglassmuseum.com/johnwalshwalsh.htm).   Scroll down to the harlequin fruit set.   Note that for this particular shape, the three rows have been reduced to two.

    Below, on the left, is a Stuart version as a liqueur with nice star cut foot, ball knop, merese, and the classic Kny double intaglio line delimiting the top of the pattern.   Marked Stuart ENGLAND, the version with the strange "t" but without the curly tail.   Measures 3 1/8" in height, av. weight 2oz 58g, quite heavy for such a small glass.

    On the right is a fine quality unmarked wine? with the bottom row of diamonds extended downwards and notched to match the notched hexagonal flake cut stem.   Measures 5¼", weighs 4½oz 134g.

    (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0846.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0846.jpg)        (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0839.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0839.jpg)

    Michelle (and anyone else interested) — I've taken this opportunity to use a simple example of a more usual three column table, the central column just being a spacer column.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2010, 03:18:54 PM
    JP — Profuse thanks for your post (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31853.msg172355.html#msg172355), suggesting Whitefriars.   You've saved me a lot of work, as, as you had probably realised, Stevens & Williams seemed the most likely candidate, with others coming before Whitefriars in my list of possibilities.

    It's proved quite interesting working it out, hence the delay.   I've had to look at how drinks services were marketed, not just by Whitefriars, but by other British manufacturers, and then at their terminology.   Besides the amazing collection of Whitefriars catalogues online at www.whitefriars.com, the best resources I've had available to me relate to John Walsh Walsh and to Stevens & Williams.

    What is interesting (and obvious, once you think about it) is that the trade catalogues took the same approach — not surprising, really, as they were mainly selling to the same trade buyers.   No drinks service was illustrated in its entirety, but most illustrated a few sets in some detail, usually a full range of glasses, together with a wine decanter, and sometimes a whisky bottle/decanter and/or a handled claret.   Price lists and factory pattern books are more comprehensive, showing a wider range of decanters, including liqueurs, spirits and sherries.   You generally find a revealing note somewhere in a price list, like this from Stevens & Williams:
  • Any other Articles to match at proportionate prices.
  • — indicating that they almost expected additional items to be ordered.

    (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF0835.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF0835.jpg)

    So, what is this set?   As JP said the glasses are Whitefriars.   Actually sherries in pattern C438, shown in catalogues 1957–1974.   In the last two catalogues, 1972 and 1974, the pattern is named GARLAND.   The pattern continued up to the end in 1980, but only as a sugar and cream set.

    Whitefriars catalogues illustrate only the wine decanter in this pattern, see the 1966 page (http://www.whitefriars.com/catalogues/contents.php?id=9662) for example.   Sherry decanters are infrequently shown by any manufacturer, but the few shown are quite light in design.   I was fortunate to happen across this page (http://www.whitefriars.com/catalogues/contents.php?pageNum_catalogue=3&totalRows_catalogue=271&id=115) in the 1957 catalogue, showing three Sherry Sets, all quite light, one showing a foot and a hollow stopper as here.   Note the Whitefriars terminology — not Sherry Suite, nor Sherry Service.

    So, in conclusion, it's a Whitefriars C438 GARLAND Sherry Set, 1957–74 catalogues, complete and undamaged, so probably quite unusual.

    Grateful thanks to all who helped.   :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: johnphilip on February 22, 2010, 04:13:09 PM
    Hi Bernard glad i could help i had no doubt about them all along but didnt want to appear pushy , i have several sets  starting with hocks going right thru the range  down to tots , and about six decanters last time i looked . Dont forget i live in Whitefriars land and know all the guys that worked there .Regards old clever clogs . :cry: :cheers:
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 23, 2010, 07:51:29 AM
    ...   Dont forget i live in Whitefriars land and know all the guys that worked there   ...

    JP — Thanks for letting me know that I got it right!   Did this topic produce anything that you had not considered before?

    I would be grateful if you would ask those who worked there how that bell/trumpet foot was made and let us know.

    See you at Cambridge on Sunday.

    Regards, Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: johnphilip on February 23, 2010, 09:19:42 AM
    Nashy will be with me at Cambridge he was a glassmaker there so i will introduce you . watch your Ps&Qs he is a man mountain . :thup: Terry&Peggy have a lovely set of large wines  made by one of the boys from an upterned bell mould i believe all hand cut and polished  probably a one off they are FAB U LOUS . :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Patrick on February 24, 2010, 01:59:47 PM
    Hi,
     Interesting to see that the Stopper appears to be UNCUT................

    Regards, Patrick.
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 24, 2010, 05:37:46 PM
    Patrick — Yes, it's not cut.   Cutting would have spoiled that beautifully elegant hollow stopper, quite unlike the narrower solid stopper supplied with the wine decanter.   Of course, once the stopper was left uncut, the cut decoration we see on the wine decanter around the neck together with the base star would have been unbalanced applied to this sherry decanter, so all that decoration was left off.

    The outcome is a much better match to the glasses.

    I have to admit that had I been offered a C438 wine set, I probably wouldn't have bought it as I try to avoid being taken for a ride by mix 'n match merchants.   Now that I know that it's not a particularly good match I shall look out for it!

    I wonder what C438 spirits and liqueur decanters look like, and whether other blanks were also used for wine and sherry.

    Regards,

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on February 25, 2010, 02:58:16 PM
    Following some scepticism by whitefriars dot com member Richard Caethoven, I went back through my material on this topic and re-examined the set, and have come up with some new points.

    I think it worth reiterating that I rarely buy decanters or decanter sets, and I bought this one recently off an impeccable source, a local general dealer who I've known quite well for about a decade, sourcing from charity shops, car boots, house clearances and the occasional local auction.   Neither of us knew what it was, save that it was reasonably good quality, complete and undamaged.

    Following Richard's comment I spent some time examining the set under a glass.   The lovely striations that you find on the cut surfaces are a perfect match as I expected.   That was all I found.   Then I noticed something else.  There is a delightful idiosyncrasy about the interpretation of the pattern by the cutter.   And this is constant, on all of the glasses and on the decanter, proving that they were cut by the same expert hand.   Those who know me know that I am used to recognising such idiosyncrasies — see, for example, topic Recognising unnamed glassmakers (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31673.0.html) from only two weeks ago.

    ...   What is interesting (and obvious, once you think about it) is that the trade catalogues took the same approach — not surprising, really, as they were mainly selling to the same trade buyers.   No drinks service was illustrated in its entirety, but most illustrated a few sets in some detail, usually a full range of glasses, together with a wine decanter, and sometimes a whisky bottle/decanter and/or a handled claret.   Price lists and factory pattern books are more comprehensive, showing a wider range of decanters, including liqueurs, spirits and sherries.   You generally find a revealing note somewhere in a price list, like this from Stevens & Williams:
  • Any other Articles to match at proportionate prices.
  • — indicating that they almost expected additional items to be ordered.   ...

    I've always assumed that the reason for the lack of decanter illustrations in trade catalogues was to minimise printing costs.   The 1957 Whitefriars Sherry Sets page shows a huge variety in these decanters.   It could well be that my assumption was wrong and that the reason they were omitted was simply that the big trade buyers might have had their own very individual ideas about what shape a whisky or a sherry decanter should be, so detailing this in a trade catalogue would have inevitably caused aggravation to some of these buyers.   So not illustrating them would have been the best marketing approach, with the salesman showing them a range of blanks instead from which they could choose.

    Does Andy McConnell discuss this in his recent book?

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on March 10, 2010, 08:28:44 AM
    ...   the big trade buyers might have had their own very individual ideas about what shape a whisky or a sherry decanter should be   ...

    I showed this set to Ray Annenberg on Sunday February 28 at the Cambridge Glass Fair, and he kindly confirmed that this set was Whitefriars.   Re the decanter he recalled that in the early years there were a lot of specials, but that in later years Whitefriars tried to standardise on a single design with the cut stopper and neck [Ray's exact words].   So the above speculation about the trade buyers' preferences doesn't seem too far from reality.   Ray prefers a 1960s date for this particular C438 Sherry Set.

    Grateful thanks.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: British? 1 + 6 cut decanter + glasses set
    Post by: Bernard C on October 17, 2011, 02:17:06 PM
    ...   Does Andy McConnell discuss this in his recent book?   ...

    Andy — Apologies.   Not recent.   Full reference:

  • Andy McConnell, The Decanter: An Illustrated History 1650-1950, Antique Collectors' Club, 1999.

  • Bernard C.  8)