Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Jay on February 28, 2007, 09:58:47 AM
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Help! Can GMB ‘fix it’ for this Dutch collector?
I’ve been in touch with a lady called Mrs.Rozema who has built up a big collection of glass (which can be seen at http://www.antiekfriesglas.nl/ and http://www.antiekfriesglas.nl/gms.php?page=page2 )
The site is in Dutch so I hereby include a rough translation of the first page;
“Freesian glass or ‘thread-glass’; what is it?
Artifacts crafted from glass or crystal with a thread of glass wrapped over the surface. The objects are diverse, spoon-jug, creamers and milk jugs, tea jars, storage-jars and decanters, etc. etc. Although I’ve been collecting for many years, I still have no idea how it is made, or by whom.
I have been in touch with museums at Leerdam, Hoogeveen, Dusseldorf and London. But I still have found nobody who can answer my question. Is there ANYBODY out there who has the answer? I’ve had many suggestions and contributions, read all the books I can find, and I am no nearer to a solution.”
“Friesch Glas of ook wel Draadglas genoemd,........wat is dit.Het zijn voorwerpen van glas of kristal met een glasdraad er omheen gewikkeld.De voorwerpen kunnen zijn:Lepelvaasjes-melkkannen-roomkannen-theebusjes-koekpotten-likeurkannen enz enz.Hoewel ik al jaren een verzamelaarster ben van dit soort glas, weet ik nog niet hoe en waar het gemaakt wordt.
Informatie heb ik ingewonnen bij glasmusea in: Hoogeveen-Leerdam-Dusseldorf-Londen enz. enz.Ik ben heel erg benieuw of er iemand is, die exact weet waar en hoe het gefabriceerd is.De meest uiteenlopende antwoorden heb ik gekregen en veel boeken er over nagelezen”
Like her, I would be interested to know from the assembled 'Brains Trust' what information can now be provided to her.
Where was it made (and how)?
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Frisian glass is not threaded (applied threads) but has very fine horizontal grooves, which I believe are cut. It is fairy common on markets in Holland but it is also found in the UK where it is known as Bristol. Of course "Bristol" may mean the distributor was located there - just as "Frisian" may refer to the silversmiths who added handles and rims to the products.
It is most unlikely that the glass was produced in the Frisian province. The names for the items - like "jugs for eggnog" or "chocolate jar" may be arbitrary and reflect the local use for what in essence would be claret jugs. The products have an Edwardian feel, but may have been produced 20 years either side.
UK production cannot be excluded - I'm thinking Walsh2. Any takers?
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Anyone got images that actually show the surface? Some on that site do not look horizontally threaded but that could be an optical illusion. Don't look very English to me. Several UK makers did use machine threading but if pieces are being cut to look like that then we are surely talking about an expensive product.
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to veiw a snake thread flask go to www.getty.edu and type in snake thread flask, im not sur if this will help, but you could also try
www.britglass.org.uk
www.historyofglass.org.uk
they may give you more information but Ivo and Frank are very knowledgable about the subject of glass.
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Do the silver marks not provide any clues?
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How stupid am i, should have thought of that Christine ::) if you can show some of the silver marks we might get some clues.
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image has been taken and will appear later (i.e. after my shopping trawl)
The surface of these is similar in feel to an old vinyl record - definitely no applied threading, more like lathe engraved decoration.
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Okay, Then I have to reach for the camera as well (and I have passed the other questions to Mrs. Rozema.)
Ivo, I have a 'lepelvaasje' here (spoon-vaas) with an unmarked silver plated rim (no mark).
It's a design and type which we see quite frequently when trawling. although ours, we just happen to have one 'knocking around' from grandmothers attic:)
I would say, looking at the surface that the profile of each thread is clearly semicircular. It's very hard to imagine that an incising technique would be an effective way of creating it.
On this one the surface is shaped like parallel pipes.
I seem to remember seeing a similar surface technique on items which were described as (pre-safety) 'match-strikers' on UK objects.
Pressing could produce the semicircular profile, but there are no signs of seams to be seen here, so it would have required quite a lot of hand finishing.
My guess is that somebody twirled the object under a (controlled) thread of moulton glass until the surface was covered, then finished it by polishing the bottom and grinding the rim ready for the silver mount.
We'll just have to wait for better photos all round?!
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From what Ivo says we are talking about three different methods (excluding hand threading) now, so lets wait for Ivo to finish the shopping. Meantime Jay, can you add a close up of yours.
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http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5371
and
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5372
I think "threaded" is the correct word for an object engraved on a lathe. On mine there seems to be a single groove running around the object rather than parallel lines or semi circles.
Is there a technician in the house?
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Ivo, if it is a single groove, ( like a record) if you put your fingernail in the groove, would it travel up or down the vase? also like a screw is threaded? :-\
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A single spiral groove would make most sense, cheaper and less risk of damaging the glass.
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I'd go along with a date around 1900, too.
"Threading" was quite a fashionable thing to do to enamelware at that time. Fabergé produced some lovely spirit flasks and shot glasses/thimbles in enamelled silver. I saw a full set not long ago with a £10,000 tag on it!
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Perhaps, it will be less confusing if we used grooved, either lathe or hand cut for grooved pieces and leave the term threaded for pieces with applied threading machine or hand done... else everyone will get confused.
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Hi,
On the 1st image above it is clear that it is a spiral groove thread as you can clearly see the groove thread is higher on the right than the left as it spirals down. This is especialy clear on the first or second groove thread from the base.
My 5 cents worth ;D
Edited as per Franks message above ;D ;D ;D
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If you are referring to Ivo's pics, then grooved is correct. If you are referring to the first link in the first post it is unclear to me as the partial image looks to have angled decoration.
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Some more pictures from Mevr. Rozema.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/index67.html
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Yes, some of these pieces do have silver marks, both Dutch and English marks
(precise marks not specified by Mevr. Rozema yet)
I guess that the city(assay office) of English marks would be a tenuous clue, anyway, and it's unlikely that there is a maker's mark on most such fittings.
Mine is identical to Ivo's I think. and I can't show anything better than he has.
i.e.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5371
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It would depend on where the silver was assayed and what date year, as to clue's as to what glass houses where around the area of the assay office, and English silver fitting's almost always have the makers mark.
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Generally, you can tell nothing from the silver marks as far as the glass is concerned. It will give a clue as to when the metalwork was fitted but that is all.
The pictures of your friends are still not close enough to tell if trailed or grooved.