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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: David E on September 04, 2007, 10:01:54 AM

Title: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 10:01:54 AM
Paperweights are not my my usual field of collecting, but I recently came across this, which appears to be a John Deacons' Cartwheel.

However, the book I'm using to ID this (Paperweights of the 19th & 20th C, p.39, Anne Mecalfe, Millers) mentions no sig cane, but does allude to a 'thistle' cane, which I can't seem to locate.

Size is 7.5cm diameter. Any ideas?
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: daveweight on September 04, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
Hi David - this doesn't look like a John Deacons paperweight to me and I'd say it was a Perthsire PP1. What makes you think it is Deacons ? Is there any marking on this weight as John either uses his thistle cane on cheaper weights or his JD or JHD signature cane on more expensive pieces so all Deacons weights are signed somehow
Dave
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: Leni on September 04, 2007, 12:41:47 PM
Looks like an early Perthshire to me, too.  The early ones didn't have the P cane in the centre.
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 12:42:03 PM
Thanks Dave and Leni.

I was comparing it to the photo given in the book - looks identical to my untrained eye, even to the number of twists (11) radiating from the centre. I believe the thistle cane is the centre one, but this definitely isn't present on mine.

But I'll cheerfully admit to being uneducated to the finer points of 'weight identification ;D
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: Leni on September 04, 2007, 12:48:22 PM
Since John originally worked at Strathearn, and was one of the founder members of Perthshire, it's hardly surprising that you will have noticed the similarity  ;) 
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 12:55:47 PM
I'll direct the honourable lady to my original statement! ;)
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 01:16:15 PM
I see that JD left Perthshire in 1978, so if he did make this, it dates the weight at least prior to this. However, I have found mention of the PP1 as having "13-14 radial spokes" see http://www.paperweight-mall.com/pagepp1.html - would they alter the design at any time?

Edit: Appears the design did alter; "The details of the canes, spokes and colouring vary considerably and it is not easy to find two identical weights."
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: Frank on September 04, 2007, 02:00:23 PM
I show a few variants from different catalogues here:
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.view_images&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1074&category_id=186&Itemid=51

Always happy to add more :) You will notice that there are not significant layout differences for those PP1's shown so far. If you look at the PP63's
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=202&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=51

You will see that there are significant variations in the 6 shown. It gets even more confusing as editions, even limited can be offered on different ground colours.

But of course, variation is inevitable in hand made items and even Caithness, where most designs were not as long lived, has significant differences that can be seen in some cases. No doubt once I complete adding the Caithness catalogues and start adding the contributed photographs, the extent of this variation will be much easier to see.

This page will eventually have most of the edition (still waiting) on display and shows a lot of variety.
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=219&Itemid=51

So paperweights certainly differ from stamp collecting  :) where you can only detect the differences with special equipment. Each weight is an individual creation. Possible exceptions to that being the laser decorated weights where you can get totally identical pieces and of course moulded weights.

Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 02:21:31 PM
Thanks for the update. The ground on this, if I'm not mistaken, appears amethyst.

Quote
Always happy to add more
You know you don't need to ask, Frank ;)

Royalty charge, to you, 0.00000000000000000001p per photo  >:D

Do you want the original photos? I was experimenting with lighting, so will try to remove that slight reflection.
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: KevinH on September 04, 2007, 02:24:18 PM
Just to add to this, here is one  (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/vas-strath/weight15.htm) that is the same pattern as David's (having a 1-1-2-2 set up of canes between the radial twists). It confused me for a long time. I decided it might be Strathearn rather than Perthshire PP1. Recently I changed my mind, but have not yet updated the web page to say so!

A weight similar to mine was mentioned to me by another collector, and it had a Perthshire Paperweights label. General style, overall appearance, detailed pattern form ... all matched and so, with a PP label, it was settled.

For most of us, these unsigned PP1s (and same, but smaller, PP2s) from Perthshire are one of the more difficult weights to attribute. As Frank shows, there are many variations on a similar theme.

The book The Complete Guide to Perthshire Paperweights states, "thirteen or fourteen radial twists" but also adds, "Some very early PP1s have considerably fewer radial twists and weights with larger numbers of radials also exist".

So, David, your weight may have been made by JD - at Perthshire Paperwerweights (1969 to 1978), but not in his own studio (1978 to present). The info in Anne Metcalfe's wonderful little guide is correct and any weight by John from in his own studio will have some form of identifying cane.
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 02:34:29 PM
Thanks Kev. I have learnt to practice caution when attributing anything - research does that for you.

One other difference in the example from your site, is the number of canes around the centre - 13 (mine) instead of 12, but otherwise it is very similar, as is the profile and the purple ground.

I imagine canes were used to fill the available space, and they would vary in size anyway, hence the difference.
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 02:36:07 PM
Note to moderator - could the title be changed to reflect these findings? Thanks
Title: Re: John Deacons Cartwheel?
Post by: KevinH on September 04, 2007, 02:45:09 PM
Quote
I imagine canes were used to fill the available space, and they would vary in size anyway, hence the difference.
Good observation, David. Absolutely right. It's the fact of having two rows of canes around the central one that is important for the design [except, of course, for Perthshire Paperweights, who in their wisdom, sometimes produced completely different designs under many of the fixed design numbers!].
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: Max on September 04, 2007, 03:36:13 PM
Title ok?  Let me know if it's not right.  :)
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: David E on September 04, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Kev, there's more to 'weights than meet the eye - very interesting to understand the various technicalities.

Thanks Max, looks alright to me - enough doubt to create mystery ;D
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: RAY on September 06, 2007, 07:57:54 PM
did't JD make a strathearn range , i've seen one of his weight's which i thought was a strathearn until i looked on the base, it was signed with diamond point i think J Deacons strathearn with a date which i can't recall, but next time i'm there i will take a photo, it was priced at £125 so no chance of me buying it
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on September 06, 2007, 08:12:51 PM
John Deacons and Willie Manson are currently doing a series of collaborations which they call "Strathearn series". Each piece is a limited edition of 25. They don't look like the old Strathearns at all.
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: RAY on September 06, 2007, 08:14:56 PM
the one i've seen has been there for a least 2-3yrs
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: David E on September 16, 2007, 10:25:29 AM
Did you get the chance to photo it Ray?
Title: Re: PP1 Perthshire - poss John Deacons?
Post by: RAY on September 16, 2007, 08:19:04 PM
hi David

no not yet , as it's not local to me, but i'm due there for a good look around there soon