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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Wuff on September 19, 2011, 09:58:15 PM

Title: What do you think this is?
Post by: Wuff on September 19, 2011, 09:58:15 PM
http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120775769466 (http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120775769466)

I am on purpose not stating what I think it is (though I know for sure) - don't want to introduce any bias.

Seller insists this must be genuine Murano because he bought it in a shop in Murano.

Any opinions?
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: KevinH on September 19, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
The seller's comment could well be correct.

It is well known that Chinese items have been sold in some Murano outlets for many years. It has annoyed many of the Murano folk as well as many people in the collecting world.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Frank on September 19, 2011, 10:34:13 PM
How Hi.


Incidentally there was a huge fuss over this a few years back, with police action regarding the false labelling. Yet never heard of a result, I guess everyone got paid off.

I also mentioned the false labelling by reputable companies many years ago on the GMB but no one believed me.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Wuff on September 20, 2011, 05:57:51 PM
Thank you for your comments ... but ...
The seller's comment could well be correct.
... I have not questioned the story (being bought in Murano) - only the conclusion drawn from it.

I had offered the seller a "second opinion" on my attribution. Although your comments imply an attribution to a certain origin for the serious collector, this may not be clear to anyone dealing with paperweights only occasionally - therefore it would be nice if both of you could actually spell out your attribution.

And others are also invited to comment: the more "second opinions", the better >:D.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: tootingpf on September 20, 2011, 06:19:02 PM
Hi!

I'm sure I read somewhere about a new label being introduced and monitored to ensure, 'genuine' Murano paperweights can be identified.  Never heard how that went though.

Was in Murano a year or two back and, have to say, I was saddened by the poor quality of most of the weights on sale.

I've bought some lovely Murano weights in the past (which I presume were genuine!!!) but they're harder to find now.

Looking on the bright side, maybe the qaulity of the Chinese ones will improve...

Graham
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: casalibre on September 20, 2011, 06:27:17 PM
Hallo Wolfgang!
In my opinion:
It looks like Chinese.
It taste like Chinese.
It sounds like Chinese.
So: it will be Chinese!
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: KevinH on September 20, 2011, 06:29:02 PM
Wolf - my comment was intended to point out that the seller's conclusion that "it is a Murano weight since it was bought in Murano" would be a reasonable thought if they were not aware of all the Chinese weights that have been sold in Murano over many years. And I do believe the weight in question is modern Chinese (or from Taiwan).

Graham - the quality of many Chinese weights has already improved over the past few years and there are some very good examples to be found at low cost - an excellent way of forming a collection.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 20, 2011, 06:33:22 PM
Hi Wolf,

I think it is absolutely classically distinctive of Chinese work. I recognise the canes and the colours.
I think it's an older one, but I may be wrong.

 :huh:  I thought there had been an area of China renamed Murano and/or Italy in order to get around the legal labelling thing.
I haven't managed to verify this, I'm not that hot at google mappy things!
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Wuff on September 20, 2011, 07:45:58 PM
I think it is absolutely classically distinctive of Chinese work. I recognise the canes and the colours.
I think it's an older one, but I may be wrong.

Anne Metcalfe shows in her "A Collector's Guide: Paperweights of the 19th & 20th Centuries" four examples as representative for Chinese weights:

1. A "Chinese White" - truly a Chinese speciality, mainly in the 1930ies.

2. A flower bouquet - copying antique French weights, also mainly in the 1930ies.

3. Stylised flowers with butterflies (bees also being very popular) - modern (post WW II) .... and

4. the type of weight in question here - also modern (post WW II): always with these yellow/red stars and green leaves, often with other additions (e.g. rose or bird canes).

So my "diagnosis" was - definitely Chinese, second half last century - whether it was bought in Murano or not.

Thank you for all your comments!
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Roger H on September 20, 2011, 08:09:33 PM
         Its as you say chinese sold in murano, its difficult to imagine now, but there was a time I was impressed by the "complicity" of the canes and would have purchased one. But we advance from there given time and dont even give them a second glance.
        Just think about the first weight you purchased. Mine was a deep ruby weight with swirling bubbles inside that could only be seen when held to the light. I had to dig deep for £2.50. That was 25 years ago. I now mainly concentrate on good quality scottish.
               Mmmmmmmmm that was rather nostalgic. Roger.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: tropdevin on September 20, 2011, 09:21:21 PM
***

Is there any doubt whatsoever that this is a Chinese weight? That said, I would have dated it to pre-1950.

I recall a Newspaper article a year or so ago which recounted how some people in Murano were arrested for fraud, and over 13 million (yes, 13 million) glass items of Chinese manufacture were impounded from a warehouse. They had been labelling these and selling them as Murano. The problem, as I understand it, is that under EU rules you can import something into Murano for, say, 1 unit of currency; do work of value 1.1 unit of currency (eg sticking a label on and putting it in a box); and then label it quite legally as Made in Murano.

If you search Chinese glass makers websites (I keep putting links on GMB for these) you can find lots of 'Murano Glass' items advertised exactly as that - including paperweights amongst the products, some of which turn up for sale in Murano, others on US eBay and French eBay, sold as 'from Murano, hand made in Italy'. Hmmm...

Alan
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2011, 09:55:30 AM
To me, post-WWII, ('50s or earlier) is old.
Thanks Wuff for delineating the styles - I'm chuffed I was right about it not being brand new. ;D
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 21, 2011, 01:33:54 PM
Quote
To me, post-WWII, ('50s or earlier) is old.

So what does that make us  :P :P
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2011, 01:41:57 PM
Old for glass.

We're vintage  :tof: and, ahem,  mature.  :thud:
Besides, we're not pre-'50s
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Greg. on September 21, 2011, 02:35:38 PM
This story seems very pertinent......

http://www.thevenetianclub.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=114
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: jakgene on September 21, 2011, 03:44:20 PM
Sorry - I'm pre 50's

what does that make me..... still alive mostly  ;D

JAK
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2011, 04:02:48 PM
 :thud:
I had always thought you were younger than me, by a long way. There's a distinct lack of anything "old fogey" about you.
(until you mentioned the concert in '65 yesterday - I also thought you were a bloke until a couple of days ago - it's the impression I got from your JAK-bit.)

You can be "vintage and mature" with Christine and me any time you like.  :smg:
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: jakgene on September 21, 2011, 04:14:55 PM
Thanks Sue!

JAK are my initials - Jackie is the name - so JAK  became my "computer name" back in the late 80'sor early 90's (can't remember) when we first got email at work and it stuck ever since.

and I only made the 1940's by three weeks I have to say!
I did the marriage and children bit late in life so still have youngish ones living at home ( well in their 20's anyway) to keep me young in outlook.

will be over there in UK in  2013 so will be vintage and mature with you then. :help: 
 Coming for about 6 months or as long as I can stand both the weather and to be away from home - but hoping to get to some of the major glass fairs in  :hiclp: and as many big fairs as I can get to by public transport!

Even if I need to send tea chests full home I am going to buy glass. >:D

JAK



Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2011, 04:27:00 PM
You're welcome here (as in my home) anytime - it'd be lovely to meet up!  :usd:
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: jakgene on September 21, 2011, 04:47:02 PM
Thank you - would love to see your collection.

and vice versa too - should you ever travel as far as  Perth (WA that is - not the Scottish one!)

off to bed now  :sleep:  almost 1am - how did it get that late ... or do I mean early....

JAK

Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Frank on September 21, 2011, 10:19:43 PM
This story seems very pertinent......

http://www.thevenetianclub.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=114


Indeed, thanks for posting that detailed account. It is a bit sad it took so long to bring to action. I was told many, many years ago by trade contacts who did not approve but could not denounce it themselves and tried my best to wake up the authorities in Italy. Which was tough as on-line translators were pretty useless then and my only Italian is Pizza, Pizza! Still I did name those involved in the scam so perhaps had a small part in getting things rolling. I guess court cases are still taking time...
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 22, 2011, 09:04:50 AM
 :hug:
Keep plugging away Frank. You do achieve great things and you do make a difference.
 - you're a Glassie Super Hero.  :bat:
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2011, 08:31:20 PM
You are a sweetie Sue. Have to admit my campaigning days are passing. I have still go so much material to get onto the web that I have to use up the rest of my span on that. In any case, fighting these problems absorbs too much time and energy... and you acquire some nasty enemies. But it is so nice to know that what I have done in the past is appreciated so much, thank you.
Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 24, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
If your enemies are the nasty ones, you know your fight is right Frank.
 :hug:


"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
Pastor Martin Niemoller

Title: Re: What do you think this is?
Post by: stew2u2 on September 28, 2011, 07:10:06 PM
just when you thought it was alright to go in the water someone has to tie a lead weight to your feet. im just new to glass, when i saw it i thought chinese 1930+ it doesnt help my learning curve seeing murano on it. thanks for bringing to at least to my attention so as not to be hoodwinked by some sellers.
thanks again
stew