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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Otis Orlando on December 04, 2012, 11:54:50 PM

Title: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 04, 2012, 11:54:50 PM
Hi, Can anyone identify this rare overlaid glass bud vase.  I have tried to research this vase and managed to find some that do bare similarities, however, not with the additional applied clear and striped overlay as shown, especially paying attention to the shape of the body of the vase compared to others.   My first thoughts were Murano, when observing the base support(footed).   I am now thinking that this may not be Murano after all.  Harrach and Fenton are also on my line of research.  Any help on maker appreciated!   I have dated this vase around the late 1900's.  I am sure someone will correct me on this. 

H. 21.3cm  Dia. at top 3.1cm

Here are just some of the sites I have visited:-
 
http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/gallery-vaseline/slides/vaselineopalescentfrilledbudvase.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290777949891
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 05, 2012, 07:35:24 AM
Almost certainly Bohemian and very possibly Harrach. They seemed to like this stripey stuff. Rare is probably a bit rich. Uncommon might be better. I think you mean late 1800s though.

Here are some Harrach examples (http://www.lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/thumbnails.php?search=harrach&submit=search&album=search&title=on&newer_than=&caption=on&older_than=&keywords=on&type=AND) (Ignore the custard ones)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 06, 2012, 02:56:35 AM
Rare is probably a bit rich. Uncommon might be better. I think you mean late 1800s though.

Hi Christine.   Thanks for your info. and comments.  Uncommon it is  ;).   I did not realise that this vase could be over 200 years old.  That maybe the reason why the supports show clear signs of ware.  Since you have dated this as being older than what I initially thought,  I decided it would be a good idea to inspect the vase thoroughly.  On close observation, I have noticed inscribed/scratched markings to the outer edge of the pontil area.  BM3, BN3 or BA13, I think.  On the opposite side of the pontil I can just about make out the letter S or 5 and a signature.  I am not too sure.  It is clearly signed by hand, like a Doctor signing a prescription form.  I just can't make out the signature as it looks like a letter on top of a letter. ::). If this is a Harrach vase I am aware that there are still ongoing investigations into decoding the markings/signatures to the later pieces.   I have taken xtra pics. to assist, but having difficulty under artificial lighting.  I will have to see if I can take a better picture in natural light, unless you have any suggestions other that purchasing a high quality camera ;D.     
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: stew2u2 on December 06, 2012, 05:41:30 AM
think you are getting mixed up with 18th century and late 1800. 18th century is 1700 to 1799. late 1800 is 19th century is just over 100 years still a good age for glass.

stew
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 06, 2012, 07:16:40 AM
Looks like someone scratched their post code on it. Marks are sometimes found on the enamelled ones, but not usually this sort. Your vase is probably just over 100 years old
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 08, 2012, 12:47:32 AM
Thanks for the correction Stew.  Yes! still certainly a good age. 

There is every possibility Christine that It could be a postcode. Who in there right mind would do that I wonder!  I want rule out that it could possibly be an authentic mark though, but will certainly bare in mind your thoughts.   Postcodes were only introduced from 1957, I think.   I am not able to match an area to the markings using different variations from what I can just about read.  If the markings are not authentic, I suppose the markings can be easily polished out as they are not deep.  I have noticed another mark, a vertical etched line with two horizontal lines going across the middle.   My first thought were Nancy Daum, as the markings look very similar.   I am not sure whether Nancy Daum would make this type of vase  :-X.  If so, is there any possibility that Nancy Daum assisted in the design? It just seems very strange, that someone would go to the trouble of making these marks.  Surely this would indicate that this vase was of some significant importance, don't you think?
Marks are sometimes found on the enamelled ones, but not usually this sort.
.   

I have looked at the Harrach vases and can see the similarities, especially paying attention to the supports and filigree.   Couldn't help myself to look at the other wonderful selection of glass.  I've included this site to my favourite collections  :).

I've tried taking natrual light pictures of the potil area, but the weather has not been too good and the quality of pictures taken were of poor quality, so I will attempt again over the weekend.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: KevinH on December 08, 2012, 01:20:27 AM
The vases might be Welz, rather than Harrach.

I have a pair of yellow-white spatter, ribbed vases which have what seems to be the same basic spiral pinchwork on the body. My vases have the typical triple, ribbed ball base over pinchwork feet known on several Welz items (see this section in Craig's site (http://www.kralik-glass.com/frametemplate.html))

My thoughts, however, are focused on the spiral trailed pinchwork of the body and I do not know whether this may have been copied by other makers.

Edited to add pic (shown in another thread but I can't easily locate it right now).
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 08, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
Hi KevnH,  What a lovely pair of vases you've got their.   I would love to own them.  :(  To have a pair, that's even better! ;D   With regards to the site you have provided,  I am not entirely convinced that my vase is or might be Welz.  I am sure someone on the GMB board will either confirm this.   I have thoroughly looked at the site and your vases and I cannot see  similarties.  It might be that I'm getting a little tired now. ::)   The pinch work, the shape of vase and pattern design are all different compared to the Harrach vases on the site provided by Christine.  I have sent various emails on some of my collections and since your reply, I have instantly received a reply from Graig.  He has know knowledge of this piece, however, finds it interesting indeed!   I will of course not rule out Welz entirely,  as you do have a lot more experience in glass than myself.  Your information has been of great help.   I am now glued to this vase and will continue my investigations.   
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 09, 2012, 12:45:48 AM
The pinched rigaree added to the body in a spiral application is actually a decor detail that is known to have been used by Several companies. Ruckl, Harrach, Welz.... and likely others. Some of the pieces exhibiting this technique are likely 1920's Czech glass in what I would have to call a Victorian style revival.....

Great vases....  both the OP and Kev's

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: KevinH on December 09, 2012, 02:59:36 AM
Thanks for that, Craig.

My own investigations on use of pinchwork on Bohemian style items have been limited to the usual books (mainly Truitt) and the few websites (including yours) that have provided excellent images and info.

It is interesting that there do not seem (from my searches) to be many examples of this type of decor, including pinchwork feet, in any of the web images. And the only section in the "1880-1940" Truitt book with several items of the general type is Welz.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 09, 2012, 05:57:47 PM
The museum in Nový Bor also attributes some striped vases like yours as Welz production.
Surely - just another pointer... The longer I collect the more I become reluctant to 100%
statements. At any time a successfull design and technique may have been copied within a
short time by others who had the means and skills, too, I suppose...  ::)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 10, 2012, 12:21:31 AM
Your comments are appreciated and yes! there has been some ambiguous comments regarding this vase, however, I can understand some of the reasons.  It is of course difficult to attribute this vase to any one maker.   I am currently still trying to obtain information and do understand that this can take some time.   Whilst browsing today, I manage to find a vase that is very similar to mine.  There is limited amount of info. however, the vase bares every resemblance.  The overlay and filigree and most importantly the shape of the vase, seems to me, that it could be made by the same maker? ::) Mmmmmmm!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/art-of-glass/7554662854/in/photostream/
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 10, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
IMHO that one is most likely a Harrach life light (examples of which I showed earlier). Yours is not a life light though
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 10, 2012, 01:02:26 PM
Hi Christine,  I am aware that my vase is not a Harrach Life Light.  Having read the other comments and carried out my own research and based upon, the more than useful information gathered , I am still convinced  the vase has all the qualities of being Harrach.  That is not to say it is though and would like to make that very clear, as I am no expert on the subject matter.   I've, yet again, reviewed the Welz and Ruckl design as an area of possibility, and as stated before, I cannot see any resemblance, unless I am looking in the wrong place ::).  I would most definately elliminate Ruckl from my line of enquiries, unless stated otherwise.   In view of this, I am enlclined to follow the same thoughts as Dirk in relation to this uncertainty.

The museum in Nový Bor also attributes some striped vases like yours as Welz production.
The longer I collect the more I become reluctant to 100%
statements. At any time a successfull design and technique may have been copied within a
short time by others who had the means and skills, too, I suppose...  ::)

Unless any other information comes to light.  I would label/describe this vase as Bohemian, late 1800's  ;)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 10, 2012, 01:18:23 PM
As I said earlier
Quote
very possibly Harrach. They seemed to like this stripey stuff.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 10, 2012, 10:10:09 PM
Thanks! Christine,   Yours and other GMB members comments and info. have most certainly helped me.   At least I can narrow it down to Bohemian, possibly Harrach.....................  just to keep out of line of fire by 'Operation Ebay............ I mean Operation Eagle Eye'  ;D.   Thanks for all your help.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: krsilber on December 12, 2012, 03:42:18 AM
Here are a few examples of Harrach vases in a similar vein.  Sorry about the poor photo quality.  This is at the Passau Museum.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: azelismia on December 12, 2012, 08:04:10 AM
life light.. I've never heard of that. how cool. I thought they were very weird shaped vases.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 12, 2012, 11:06:23 AM
This make interesting reading http://www.fairy-lamp.com/Fairylamp/ChristmasLightsGraham.pdf
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glasskillian on December 12, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
Have found this post very informative and the link to the fairy light/christmas lights threw some light on a piece i own so thankyou very much.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 12, 2012, 06:54:42 PM
Thanks for the term ´lifelight´ and the link, Christine!   :-* Hadn´t heard of that before.
-
And now it´s getting interesting, Glaskillian....  :D
I recently purchased a pair of vases like yours - same mould-blown shape, but with a
decoration in pink and aventurine, which is a colour combination found on Welz pieces:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108140812446658939096/FranzWelz#5700057828033250674
So I´d say your striped vase is possibly rather a Welz than a Harrach.
Unfortunately mine haven´t arrived yet , because the auction house mixed up some parcels,
but I´ll post some pictures as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: KevinH on December 12, 2012, 08:09:49 PM
Kristi - thanks for adding the photo of the display at Passau museum. That is the first visual evidence I have seen (I don't have many books covering Bohemian wares) for a number of Harrach items using pinchwork for body decor and foot.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 12, 2012, 08:31:14 PM
At least the thumbnail from the auction is still visible:
http://www.auktionshalle-cuxhaven.com/index.php?opt=&evnt=205&cat=3
See sixth from the bottom of the page.

Hiya@Minneapolis!  :D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: krsilber on December 13, 2012, 12:14:46 AM
Kevin - I'm just happy I am able to provide Passau photos!  I took hundreds.  What an amazing collection.  Here's another few examples.

Hi Dirk!  I was in Germany in October, and whever I saw an organ I thought of you.  Wish I'd had more time, we could have met.  How far are you from Braunschweig?  My best friend lives there.  Too late now, I guess, but I'll make it back some day!  BTW, I love your Groucho Marx quote.

Was bedeutet "nachverkauf"?  There's a piece on that auction site that catches my eye.

I don't know about Welz.  Seems rather "plain" for them.  Not that plain is a bad thing, it's a lovely vase, but Welz seems to add a touch of something to their pieces that sets them apart.  I love Welz.  Beautiful pieces you have!  And you'd obviously know more about them, so who am I to say?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 16, 2012, 05:31:46 AM
Wow! I have never heard of Passau Museum.   Thanks for posting the pictures Kristi, I have saved the Passau Museum Site to my favourites for future reference and since your post have been able to gather more interesting information.  I now know why Christine stated that rare is a bit rich.  I think I too  need to invest in some Bohemian glassware books. ;D  I've had this vase for about five years now and never really took much interest in it.  It was only whilst searching for a Mary Gregory vase amongst my collection that I spotted this vase and my first thoughts were just to try it under U.V light.  Once I knew it was uranium glass I thought it would be a good idea to post it.  Having limited amount of knowledge on Uranium glass, I was introduced to this site, which I think is of interesting  reading:

http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/vaselineglass.html.   
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 16, 2012, 09:49:42 AM
Thanks for the pictures, Kristi!
You´ve been quite close to my place - ~200km. Next time you´ll hopefully take a detour!  :-*
Nachverkauf means the pieces of an auction which didn´t sell, so you´d be able to get them
for the minimum bid plus taxes and shipping.

My (presumely) Welz pieces arrived yesterday. The colours are a perfect match with another
one of my Welz pieces. Unless Harrach also made his colour combination I´d say we´re
having a link to Welz striped pieces now.   :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 16, 2012, 12:20:27 PM
Three more pictures. Number 1 and 2 from the Welz showcase in the Nový Bor museum,
number 3 from a private collection. All pictures are courtesy of Hans Baumann - thanks
for his permission to post them here!  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: John Smith on December 16, 2012, 01:51:06 PM
Hi Kevin H. I too have seen these globe like vases attributed to Welz.  http://www.kralik-glass.com/frametemplate.html   I have this large vase example with a most unusual top formation. It is crystal cased over white.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on December 16, 2012, 02:29:45 PM
loving all these photos and pictures - Dirk, stunning combo!  I love the green aventurine in the pinks and greens.
Kristi, thanks so much for sharing!
m
Title: Re: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 17, 2012, 01:13:39 AM
John:
Would it be OK for me to use your images on my website and also on another discussion board. 

Dirk:
Same question...  Do you have any other Welz shots from the Tango Exhibit?

By the way John....  Great piece, and only the 2nd example I have ever seen.....  I consider the ribbed ball feet to be a market for Welz production....

And Dirk.... Fabulous stuff.... 

Thanks, Craig
Title: Re: Re: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: John Smith on December 17, 2012, 01:41:50 AM
Hi Craig.. Please. May I kindly ask what site you are refering to...

should you require further pics of my vase, please just ask.

Mod: Post edited to remove response related to details that are no longer within this thread.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 17, 2012, 01:45:31 AM
Hi John.....  Kralik-glass.com 

Craig
Title: Re: Re: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: John Smith on December 17, 2012, 01:54:00 AM
gotcha... will send you my pics, hopefully this side of Christmas.  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 17, 2012, 02:03:48 AM
Thanks.....  Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: KevinH on December 17, 2012, 11:47:53 PM
My recent general questions and comments about rigaree / pinchwork gave rise to an unexpected negative reaction and one contributor has requested removal of their own post relating to the subject. I have decided that it would be best to simply remove my post and all others relating it.

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 18, 2012, 12:09:38 AM
There has been a conversation on Collectors Weekly regarding this Life Light shape and some decors a member there is trying to link to Ruckl. It all started with a post on there of an oxblood and white spatter style decor on a vase with a Ruckl label, IMHO, a fairly indistinct decor to start making leaps to attributions of a line of product and a shape. But that is just me.....

Anyways, it is there. I do not know who these Lifelights are by.... although the pink, white and green aventurine is a combination of colors Welz liked and worked with a bit, I think that in order to attribute the shape to anyone for sure, it is absolutely necessary to find an example in an artistically distinct decor which is associated with a particular glass house..... Something I have not seen in over 2 years of looking....

I have stayed out of the discussion on CW for the most part, as the OP and I do not get along at all.  There is a version of this shape in a multicolor Honeycomb pattern that was for sale as Welz for months on ebay, and now it is Ruckl....  That is also a version of Honeycomb I have never directly attributed to Welz.  This shape could be Welz, could be Harrach, could be Ruckl.  I will reserve my opinion a little longer as I have been looking at this particular shape for a couple of years....  All of the decors I have seen them in are not decors I would use to make any kind of solid attribution. The one posted by Glasskillian is one I have not seen before....  It is a fascinating example, but IMHO certainly by the same house as the others..... My personal opinion so far is that this shape is unique to a particular house, and likely not one produced by a variety of glass houses.  Which house???  Who knows at this point..... I certainly have my suspicions, but most here know that I do not attribute based on suspicion....

I will provide links to the original post of the Ruckl labeled piece, and also to the postings working their way to the claim these Life Lights are by Ruckl....

Just thought members should be aware of the conversation to form their own opinion since an attribution was suggested for the shape in a particular decor in this thread.


The original post with the labeled piece;
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/75739-12-ruckl-red-shimmy-vase-with-1903-stic?in=442

The attribution of the decor to a wide variety of pieces making them "Ruckl";
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/76114-one-bothery-ruckle-decor-in-many-shapes?in=442

The leap to the Lifelight shape;
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/76122-i-heart-ruckl?in=442

The connection of multiple decors to Ruckl through this shape.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/76380-the-four-seasons-of-ruckl?in=442

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 18, 2012, 12:12:53 PM
Sorry for the delay... busy, but I´ll reply tonight...
Meanwhile - it seems we´ve occupied Otis Orlando´s original question with another topic. Wouldn´t it be best to
split this thread from reply #19 onwards into a new one?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 18, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
I agree, and wondered about that.....
Look forward to hearing from you Dirk....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 18, 2012, 08:30:33 PM
Craig, of course you can use my pictures for your site, but I´ll have to ask for Mr. Baumann´s
permission regarding his.
Thanks for your link to the CW articles. Once more it´s a minefield...   ::)

I´m aware I almost, apart from the word ´presumably´, did the same a few answers ago -
basing a maker´s theory on colour schemes. But there´s a difference in Leah´s examples
she´s already described herself - the yellow interior of the lifelight.
And having a closer look I also seem to spot some powder blue spatter in the lifelight, too.
(Or do I see some blue in the labelled Rückl, too?)
So while the other examples may possibly be by the same maker, there´s more than one
difference to the lifelight. Further these come in other decors / colours which have been used
by Welz - striped uranium and honeycomb pattern.
To me there are more details pointing towards Welz than Rückl, although I´m quite fascinated
they made such a very similar decor.
Here´s BTW another vase in these colours - (cadmium) yellow interior, oxblood and powder
blue spatter. Shape looks welz-ish to me, but then again... I collect Welz and I want to believe...  ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: John Smith on December 18, 2012, 09:33:15 PM
Hi Dirk & All...

Hi… Please this is only an observation IMHO, however if we look at this piece that has a core of yellow, upon which the other colours are applied, then please see this yellow as being an “undercoat” of translucence. Blues for example, will appear more green… Reds will appear to have a more orange depth of colour when placed upon a yellow colour.

It can also be noted that when spatter glass is produced, that often (but not always) other impurities can be picked-up upon the base colour without intension… The occasional dot, splash of non-intended glass can often be observed… I have attached one such example of my own.

Notice the one solitary vivid addition of orange… This surely was totally unintentional by its maker for this piece. It can therefore perhaps be termed as being an impurity in terms of this particular vase? It was not meant. It should not be there. But it is. Internal bubbles, also.

The compatibility of the various colours, together against the base colour batch, will each determine & influence the overall colours of the eventual piece. As will also the application of each colour and/or additonal work such as combing or twisting the glass whilst blowing it into its final shape. This vase for example, has a base batch of white. Had it been RED, the the blues would then be purple! This all has an influence, as so does the final casing (if present, to give emphaise the colours and to provide additional strength) in which with this piece it is cased with clear crystal.

The above is by far of more importance than the shape. The shape of a piece is just that. It is only the colourisation, the variety of it or the texture (?) which then goes on to give a piece its very own individual identity… IMHO. Please. This is just an observation for your appraisal. John.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 18, 2012, 10:08:23 PM
Thanks a lot for the insight in glass-making, John. It reminds me a lot of old painting techniques,
where often the final colour you see and it´s brilliance is achieved by various different layers.
-
And another lovely piece of Welz you have there.  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 18, 2012, 10:34:58 PM
Hi John, and glad to see you here....  I really am....

I agree with the ideas of inner linings having an effect on outwardly visual color. IMHO, in many cases, multicolor layer decors are such that it likely would have been made by at least a couple, if not more companies. The oxblood and white spatter decor is a good example of a simple decor to produce with no real strong identifying characteristics. Multicolor spatter, or end of day decors as some call them, are also a good example of a decor which is difficult to isolate versions of.

IMHO, in the case of these types of decors, reasonably unique shapes become critical for the purpose of attribution. Some shapes are almost useless for the purpose of attribution, but some are quite unique and can be used......  In many cases it becomes the combination of things which allow for an attribution.

Dirk, I know you said presumably.... and I happen to agree with which direction things likely point.....  but as I said before, I need something solid to make it an attribution over a suspicion.  (I want to believe also) Other than the links being claimed on CW, I have never seen anything which would support a trophy vase being made by Ruckl...  I am not saying they didn't....  I just like something reasonable to link it....  Not a decor like the oxblood spatter and a series of what I see as unfounded leaps....

The yellow interior of the Lifelight is a different interior color than the other examples. That is explained away as a variation of the Oxblood decor by Ruckl. The interior of the other pieces are a also a couple of different reds if I am not mistaken.... another reason I would likely look at multiple different sources for the decor.   I have seen this type of decor with at least 5 different interior colors...... 3 shades of red, yellow, and clear..... That includes the large piece I own in a different shape than any of the others, and also what appears to be a different interior color, kind of a bright Magenta......  I have no idea who produced mine.... I just acquired it recently... Pics attached.....

Interestingly, in a video posted on the internet from the Tango exhibition, the upturned leaf pattern with the leaf feet on the Lifelights on CW is actually shown in the Welz case on a tri-ball footed piece in pink. To me at least, that foot design on a tri ball foot is a much stronger pointer as to source, than a simple cased decor. Here is a link to the video.....  There were also a couple of pieces in the exhibition which confirmed some of my earliest Welz attributions of decors.....

http://multimedia.ctk.cz/cs/video/document/6383477/regionalni-muzeum-teplice-predstavuje-tango-sklo

I look forward to hearing about your friends pics....  and please check if there were any other Welz images from the same source....
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 19, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
We possibly don´t need his permission; I just found I have pictures from the Nový Bor showcase in my Picasa here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108140812446658939096/CzechTrip?authkey=Gv1sRgCNz6s9vqyMSeRQ#
#17, 19, 20 (only left vase) and 21 are Welz. Are these ok for you?

The tango exhibition it seems was a different one to the one you linked to, Craig. There are also some pictures in the
same folder - some Welz tango among. Unfortunately the original pictures got lost during my last year´s computer crash,
so there are only those in the picasa album left. I had photographed all the pattern book posters you can see in the
background of some pictures...  :'(
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 19, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
Dirk,
Great pics there......  #35 is also Welz..... Too bad about the images of the posters... would have loved to see a copy of each of those.    Both sets of pics, yours and his would be great if he will give permission. You have a better shot of the red trophy with what appears to be mica inclusions, his picture of the tall multicolor piece is better....  Too bad about the images you lost.....   Great stuff there.....  Helps a lot......  I had not seen the decor on the trophy vase in red with mica before, although it appears to be a red ground version of Salt and Pepper on the site.....  bit by bit the picture gets bigger....  Let me know about your friends pics.... Thanks!!!

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on December 19, 2012, 04:53:12 PM
I´ll ask anyway then...  :)
Think the inclusions are gold, but perhaps they vary.  I recently missed a green version of this decor...  :(
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 20, 2012, 03:27:21 AM
Meanwhile - it seems we´ve occupied Otis Orlando´s original question with another topic. Wouldn´t it be best to
split this thread from reply #19 onwards into a new one?


I agree, and wondered about that.....
Look forward to hearing from you Dirk....  Craig

Firstly I would like to say thank you for your concerns.   To be honest,  I find the subject matter initially raised has certainly opened up a bundle of information that I did not expect, but I find of great reading and interest  ::).  My query was answered initially and can see why the conversations have progressed.  The additional pictures and threads by GMB members to my query did, kick start the conversation, which in my opinion......................, is all 'of good intentions'.  I did not know some of the companies mentioned and this has helped me a lot when carrying out specific research on this type of vase.   Thanks to you all for your help.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on December 27, 2012, 09:44:41 PM
I just wanted to drop in and give John a gentle nudge for pics of the fan vase....  thanks....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Otis Orlando on December 28, 2012, 02:48:58 AM
No probs Craig!   All the best to you all for the new year and many thanks for your support, info. etc. What would we ever do without such knowledgeable GMB members:).  Most appreciated!!
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on February 25, 2013, 09:59:48 PM
Hi Craig,
sorry for the delay, but it´s taken a while to contact Mr. Baumann. We´ve got his ok for using his pictures ´wherever we deem them entertaining or educating´.   ;D
Couldn´t resist more lifelights meanwhile...  8)
BTW quite scaring how fast the Rückl theory is spreading via ebay. If it can be proven wrong one day it´s gonna take ages to eliminate the info...
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on February 25, 2013, 10:15:10 PM
yes, I'd never seen Ruckl mentioned until recently and now it's everywhere.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 25, 2013, 11:13:50 PM
Hi Dirk, No problem. Would you please thank him for me......

Yes, as far as Ruckl goes the bulk of it has been perpetuated by one seller who has sold the same glass as Bohemian, English Cottage, Welz, and now Ruckl.

As of now, I can actually link many of these pieces to Welz, but it would require the use of several images of pieces she sold.  Time is on my side and I will get the images, and/or examples I need to be able to publish links which will be quite strong....  I just recently purchased one with the help of a friend in the UK that bought it from a seller there that would not ship to the US. 

I will post an image of it here.... and better ones when I actually get it.  The shape is important because it was in the Tango Exhibit and is recognized as a Welz shape,. It is also quite distinct, so it is a strong link to other pieces. The decor on this one is also a little on the unique side, so fairly easy to spot on other pieces....  Additionally, the same shape can be found in at least 2 other decors that link to examples of the life lights like the pink, green and white one in your pic..... Also a Welz shape that can be linked to the Oxblood and white decors also... I would only make that leap in the Oxblood decor using a definite shape, or reinforced with multiple links to the same shapes....

Additionally, in one of your images there is an image of a Trophy vase in a unique shape with an octagonal base and body that I have also found in the same unique form in the oxblood and white decor being used as a "Link" to all of the "Ruckl items being attributed. As a serious researcher trying to figure some of this out, it is offensive to me to see what is happening....  I will also post that example here. the last image in the group is an exact shape, including the ribbing, that is found in the pink, green and white decor shown in your image above on a life light.....

All pics used with the permission of the owners.

Here are a couple of Google searches to try....  These will display amazingly similar sets of images....

Welz Vase Goodwin

Ruckl Vase Goodwin

You can really look to this as a major source of the great influx on ebay.  People see it and then start repeating it..... You will also see a surprising number of these attributions by other sellers which say in the description that a "kind ebayer" emailed to tell them their item was Ruckl....

Thanks again on the pics and getting a hold of the gentleman.

Craig

Images are as follows:
1) Welz shape in a spatter decor - My new vase - Same shape is in the Welz case in the Tango Exhibit in Yellow Variegated in this link. Far left end. 

http://rover.rajce.idnes.cz/Tango_sklo/#11_tango_sklo_z_Teplicka_A-_firmy_-_Franz_Wetz_Hrob_u_Teplic_B_-_Franz_Tomschick_Kostany_.jpg

2) Welz Octagonal in Oxblood Spatter
3) Welz Octagonal in Navy Bor - Pink Variegated
4) Welz shape as seen in Tango Exhibit - Red Variegated - Czechoslovakia stamp - Interwar production

Mod: Post edited at suggestion of Committee
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on March 03, 2013, 02:25:30 AM
Bought two of these today, thought the shape and decor may be of interest. Can I assume Welz?

John
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on March 03, 2013, 03:10:28 AM
Hi John, Yes....  I would say Welz....  May I use your pics in my research? and probably on the website site when I am done with my current project...

Thanks, Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on March 03, 2013, 03:32:49 AM
Let me sort some better photos tomorrow Craig, too cold and late for a trip into the attic now. Some very nice coffee is keeping me awake...

BTW, I sent a bunch of Kralik photos a while back, did they arrive?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on March 03, 2013, 03:46:43 AM
I believe so....  when I looked I see that I did not reply, so apologies for that......  I had a bunch of really weird work stuff going on then and was really preoccupied at the time....
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on March 03, 2013, 04:02:33 AM
No worries Craig, I have a few more building up.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on March 03, 2013, 03:01:47 PM
Hopefully these photos are brighter and sharper. Please use them as you see fit Craig, if you would prefer the higher resolution originals let me know.

John
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on March 03, 2013, 04:08:49 PM
Hi John,

If you would email the high res to the images at the website that would be great.....

These pieces are great though, as this shape has generally only seen in spatter type decors, and although I have fairly confidently linked the family of them to Welz, this is a very specific decor by them that, at least to me, leaves very little doubt about who produced them.

I can link this decor, which is pretty unique,  to Welz through a variety of shapes and other decors, and these are a great find.

If you ever grow tired of them I would love first right of refusal......   ;D ;D

Thanks,
Craig

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: keith on March 03, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
Couple more ?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on March 03, 2013, 08:29:07 PM
Whilst at it - here´s another striped one which can be linked to the honeycomb pattern.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bohemian-RUCKL-Rainbow-Honeycomb-Applied-Rigaree-Feet-Art-Glass-Vase-/130860216165?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item1e77e06f65

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 03, 2013, 08:50:24 PM
And a another friend
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1571
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on March 03, 2013, 09:24:24 PM
Think we´re doing some great team-work here.  :group-hug: :thup:
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 03, 2013, 05:01:12 PM
Hello all, I have added a section to my website under the Welz menu. It is "Welz Research". Here is a link to the intro page which has a link at the bottom of it which walks through the results of a couple of years of research and waiting for examples which would, IMHO, link the Harlequinn and Honeycomb decors, and others now also, to Welz production.

Several of the examples in the article were provided through this and other posts on this site. It would not have been possible without the help of folks here.  I hope that readers enjoy the article. I think the link to Welz for these pieces is supported quite strongly.

http://www.kralik-glass.com/welzresearchhoneycomb.html

Craig   

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 03, 2013, 07:11:02 PM
Well done Craig. Here's another variation on a shape you have http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=17
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 03, 2013, 07:39:18 PM
Thanks Christine.  For both the link and the compliment!
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 03, 2013, 08:06:24 PM
Craig, the research is brilliant, thanks for sharing.
I probably shouldn't put this one here as I don't know if it 'fits' but I couldn't remember if you'd seen it
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 03, 2013, 08:39:09 PM
M, Thanks.....  I think it fits in the thread for sure....

I have been looking at these and they are tough. Harrach also did a similar decor, but my initial observation based on Passau images and such is that they had fewer stripes in the decor as the stripes were generally wider.  I have to admit I really like this one though....  different shape and decor.....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 03, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
The stripes and the mica look similar to my link 7 posts up
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 03, 2013, 08:48:50 PM
oooh yes, sorry I didn't read the caption and I hadn't realised your vase had mica in it - I can see the similarity in the stripes.  Unfortunately I broke that vase photographing it and chucked it, so I can't check it in person for any more details.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glasshoarder on April 04, 2013, 04:08:28 PM
The Collectors Weekly attributions look good to me. They are based upon a piece marked Antonin Ruckl & Sons showing a decor that is repeated on other shapes. Are any of the pieces attached to this tread marked Welz?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 04, 2013, 05:09:22 PM
Hello and welcome to the GMB :)

Yes the first pieces in the link of the 'map', show vases that were displayed as Welz Vases in the Tango Glass exhibition. From what I see of the 'map', those were the basis for the work on the other pieces.

With regard the discussion on Ruckl vases on the CW, I can only speak for myself, but I had a problem 'seeing' the links made to the various vases on the various threads on CW, which were then identified as Ruckl on that and other threads as a result of those links.

As an example of what I mean,  I would say that on this thread (see link below), I could probably see the link between vase three and vase one (vase one being the vase stated on the thread as being the same as a labelled version of Ruckl), although there are differences in the applied decor and it's not possible to see the bottom of the vase to see if it is the same basic shape as vase one....however, I cannot see the link of vases two and four, to vase one, at all and neither could I see a link of them to vase three.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81140-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-oxblood-sp?in=442

another example where I fail to see the thought process of the poster, would be this thread here (see link below) where according to the thread poster, the yellow and white spatter decor is apparently Ruckl as referenced in  a Hosch catalogue where it's impossible to see the decor in the picture discussed in the catalogue, and where the yellow and white vase in the middle of the thread, the trophy vase pictured as number two, is the same as a vase identified in the Tango Glass exhibition as Franz Welz.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81570-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-1895-yello?in=442


m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 04, 2013, 06:13:35 PM
I will no longer comment on CW "attributions". I withdrew from that forum and had my account deleted along with all of my posts for good reasons. Among those reasons was the ability of original posters to delete information that was provided by other users in their posts which countered claims they were making. I felt strongly that the ability to self edit ones posts to continue to appear right was not conducive to the factual presentation of information. That does not occur in this forum at all.

CW is a good site for collectors to display their collections, but as far as a solid research site, it has some very severe shortcomings, unlike this forum, which has proven to be quite educational and taken seriously by the members.

I posted a link in the CW forum to the website article, same as I did here, and will not comment on any posts in that forum. I personally only re-entered the forum to provide a source of counterpoint, as requested by many users there who contacted me directly after I left. I chose the format of articles and links, as it does not allow for editing in the forum.

Aside from the Tango Exhibit, some of the vases in the article are also identified in Truitt I as Welz production, yet one of the posts in CW has taken an image from Truitt I and posted it as an example of Ruckl in that forum. Truitt is incorrect and they have now discovered the real truth....  Welz never even produced glass.....  There is not even enough time to discuss the absurdities which are presented in that forum as "Research and Facts".

If you feel the CW attributions stemming from a single labeled piece, and many leaps that I would classify as unfounded, outweigh the evidence in the article I linked to, then you are certainly welcome to continue to attribute based on those methods.

Lastly, a single label does not build a solid family of glass attributions, just as the lack of a label does not preclude solid research.

The label you reference was also stated to be a 1903 label in one of those attributions, but in fact the style of labeled was used for a longer period of time. The factory location named on the label was built in 1903, indicating the label could not be any earlier than 1903. It does not confirm a 1903 date for the label as claimed. The Glasmarken Lexicon gives the indication that the style of label in question was used to the mid 1940's when the company was nationalized. It is this type of inattention to actual details that caused me to highly question any of those attributions.

I personally do not believe the attributions were sound in the least. I will let those who choose to read both bodies of work make their own decisions. I am certainly confident of the research in the article.

The 2 "researchers" in that forum posting Ruckl attributions for this style of glass are also sellers who 3 months earlier were the largest sellers of this style of Welz production on ebay. Now Welz does not exist to them and it is all of a sudden all made by Ruckl.  One of them even took the position that Welz did not even make glass, even though there is abundant evidence that they actually did. Personally, I find "research" from someone claiming that to be questionable at best. 

Sorry, but just my humble personal opinion..... and also final statement on the subject.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 04, 2013, 07:20:34 PM
Thank you for the article, Craig.
To me your deductions are much more plausible than anything else I´ve read.  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 04, 2013, 07:24:53 PM
Thank You Dirk, I appreciate that.

Your examples, and others from this thread and others threads here have helped me complete the work to my satisfaction....  A good example of why I have frequented this forum for as long as I have.

M - I would also add in the threads above that you mention, in the first post, the danger of using extremely simple forms and not sticking to identical version of them would be quite evident there. That would be the reason I try to stick to complex and unique shapes to support attributions. If simple forms, they really must be the same.... Not just "similar", as in the first link you provided. For what it is worth, I believe that number 2 and 4 in that post are actually Welz decors and examples, and have a suspicion that the third example may be also.  I do agree that the labeled piece is Ruckl though    :-)

In the second link you provide I find it highly suspicious that the poster also does not bother to mention that the image of the yellow variegated trophy (image 2) is actually a cropped version of the image shown in Truitt I on page 130, lower left corner. I would think that it would be at a minimum, an ethical responsibility, to state that the image is from that book and represented there as a Welz product. The shadow to the right of that vase is a shadow produced by a pink version of the octagonal trophy used in my article and referenced as being displayed in the Navy Bor Museum.  The image above it on that page is also the red and black trophy referenced in my article as being in the Tango Exhibit.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glasshoarder on April 04, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
Thank you flying free for the GMB Welcome!

So I guess that's a big "No" to my question about the makers mark, right?  One vase discussed here is marked Ruckl Vcelnicka but the others are NOT physically marked by a manufacturer. Also, Ruckl, Vcelnicka opened in 1875, not 1903.

http://www.ruckl.cz/en/historie.php
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 04, 2013, 09:25:27 PM
yes I would say that is a no to your question are any of the Welz vases discussed in that thread labelled :) 

It is difficult to identify unmarked glass but in my opinion, in order to do so, or at least provide credible attributions if pattern/design books are not available,  there has to be accountable  criteria applied to the process.
 
I maintain my comments that I cannot see any link at all to the vases identified on CW as Ruckl (with the one exception I mentioned that has a  link to shape albeit the vases in question are not the same), using the one labelled example that is there.  And I would go further and say that I find the links that have been made on CW questionable. 

By contrast, I find the information and the 'map' produced to identify Welz examples, using the identified pieces from the Tango glass exhibition and the vase in Truitt's, to be credible.

This is not about maintaining a stance to prove someone is right or someone is wrong.  It is about credible research and ensuring the correct maker is identified using robust and accountable processes to do so.

As I said, this is, of course, just my opinion :) 

m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 04, 2013, 09:33:03 PM
Hi and welcome glasshoarder,

you´re right - none of the other examples are marked Welz. But... As has been said in this thread before the
only link between the labelled Rückl vase and the other examples is the colour of the outside spatter. Various
sources - books and museums - attribute the trophy shaped vases to Welz. I´ve seen them in the Novy Bor
museum and also in a tango exhibition two years ago.
Personally I tend to believe that the czech museums and exhibition makers have sources and evidences they
base their attributions on like catalogues etc.. Due to historical and political reasons only very few have been
researched and even less may have been published yet, but I´m sure they exist and are the basis for the
czech museums´ attributions.

edit: oops, we crossed, m.  ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 04, 2013, 09:51:10 PM
Not a big "no', just a no. 

I confused the Nizbor and Vcelnicka dates as discussed in the posts on CW showing the Nizbor facility and a comment claiming the Vcelnicka label was 1903 based on a date and drawing on the Nizbor facility. I guess I really was not paying that much attention as I find the attributions to lack any real credibility or supportable evidence.... other than the labeled piece of course....

I still stand by my observation that the label can not be dated specifically to 1903 as has been done so profoundly.

Thanks for the clarification on the dates.  Really has no bearing on the discussion in this thread though.

Please feel free to respect this topic by starting one of your own regarding Ruckl.

And Welcome to the GMB, I look forward to your meaningful research contributions to enlighten us all regarding Ruckl and their production.

I would also add that I have started work on some Ruckl pages for my website, and will post examples that I can solidly link to their production using the same methods as I have used to develop an idea of Welz production.

I have already started that slow process using, of all things, images of Ruckl production as identified in the same Tango exhibition. It will quite interesting to see where those shapes lead.

Looks like I crossed paths with both of you...  :-)

Dirk. - I meant to ask you if the pink vase in that image in the right foreground is a single bulbous bottom, or a ribbed tri-ball bottom? Do you remember?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 04, 2013, 10:22:37 PM
Glasshoarder.... I see you removed the Truitt I image from the post on CW in the last hour or so....  Good Job!!!    :-)

One thing I really like about the GMB is that information can not be removed or altered or manipulated days down the road.... You are kinda stuck with what you do and say after about an hour.....  It is a format that works in a much more professional,  constructive, and educational way than CW does.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 05, 2013, 05:18:26 AM
Sorry, Craig, can´t remember how it looked like...  :-\
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 05, 2013, 05:53:45 AM
Thanks Dirk... I knew it was a long shot....  :-)

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 12, 2013, 07:21:54 PM
Just a quick note to let readers know that at least one of the aforementioned Collectors Weekly articles, as see in this link:

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81570-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-1895-yello?in=442

has been almost completely revised, changing some posted images and adding text referring to attributions not previously mentioned. One of the now mentioned Welz attributions from Truitt II, the absence of which was discussed previously in this thread, has now been added to the body of the OP's text. The post on CW now bears very little resemblance to the post which was originally done in Feb 2013, and bears a slight resemblance to the one previously discussed in this thread.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 12, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
Just for accuracy as of this evening, the CW thread still says the vases are by Ruckl,
 and   
the picture now includes again the yellow spatter vase which, from what I see in Truitt's, has been identified as Welz page 130, not 'attributed to' as they say on the thread,
and also is the same as the yellow vase that appeared in the Tango Glass Exhibition and was identified as Welz in that exhibition.
They do make the point that none of the vases are labelled apart from the original Ruckl one.  Whilst I can see that not having labels is a point to make, I think a more valid point or rather 'caveat' might be that neither Welz nor Ruckl pattern books have been seen perhaps.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 12, 2013, 10:54:56 PM
The attribution will not change in that forum, regardless of any information published anywhere...... The current yellow spatter trophy in the post is one that replaced the image copied and cropped from Truitt and not identified as to source.

While I agree and think it is a valid point that pieces do not have labels, I would also be remiss if I did not point to the huge mountain of work in Bohemian attributions which have been produced and accepted as a result of serious research, and without any labels or pattern books.

Pallme Koenig would be an excellent example of such work. While I have seen, and my website shows an example of a marked PK piece, it is actually not art glass as such, but more along the lines of a cut glass vase.  I have no knowledge at all of a PK, early Kralik, or early Rindskopf example with a label, yet the body of their work is relatively recognizable as the result of serious research. The vast majority of glass from Kralik, Rindskopf, and other companies has been researched and attributed without either pattern books or labels. Labels are a bonus which can help to confirm other research leading to the same information.

My position has always been that the foundation and premise of the work must be solid, or the results are  not worth the "paper it takes to print them".

The re-write of the particular article makes a reference to an auction shape with a Ruckl label, and an image on another site in yellow variegated. The following statement is now made in that article:
 
"The yellow and white vase shape shown in the 20thcenturyglass link above matches the vase shape in the following link which is marked Antonin Ruckl & Sons, Vcelnicka. Although the decor is different, the vase shape is exactly the same. "   I have added underline and italics to emphasize the statement being made.

Using even the sloppiest tolerances, the two shapes referenced are anything but "identical". Similar.... Yes....  Identical....  very far from it.

So while this research is quite difficult, and can be time consuming, I think there is a level of responsibility pertaining to accuracy that has to be recognized as critical when "publishing" information in public forums.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 12, 2013, 11:08:30 PM
I agree.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 13, 2013, 02:24:19 AM
I am posting a comparative of the two shapes referred to in the CW post as identical. The image of the yellow piece is used with the permission of the site owner, and the image of the Ruckl piece is used with permission of the auction house in the link on CW. 

These two shapes, as a method of linking Ruckl to many other decors, were described as being different decors but identical shapes.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 21, 2013, 01:20:37 AM
I have posted an article in the CW forum discussing simplistic shapes and their use in research.  I will also be posting the same article on my website under "General education"

here is a link to that article:   http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/88314-a-study-of-simple-shapes-it-is-all-i

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 21, 2013, 05:42:43 PM
A good article, Craig! Or should I say Welzebub... lol >:-)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 21, 2013, 06:41:17 PM
Thanks Dirk....  :-)

When I had my account there deleted as Obscurities, someone registered almost immediately using that name...  So when I decided to go back, Welzebub just seemed way too appropriate for my new moniker...

It has certainly brought some chuckles....
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 27, 2013, 03:22:48 PM
A new pair of trophy vases with enameled and gilded decoration.  :D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glasshoarder on April 27, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
 ;D Great find Dirk! Here's your shape in a different decor.

http://www.madforglass.es/Welz/Welz_1389b.html
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 28, 2013, 03:20:49 PM
Thank you, glasshoarder! She´s got a great collection - love browsing there...  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 28, 2013, 04:25:52 PM
I am posting an image of a new shape I am adding to the Welz family.  I have seen this in several different decors I felt were Welz, but this example is identical spatter and production technique to the other examples I have. t is a very unique decor and I am quite confident that this shape is also their production.  Better pics as soon as I have an opportunity.

Other examples can be seen in the following link described as Ruckl, but obviously I disagree with that attribution:
The first example is in a decor shown to be the deco on a ribbed Welz trophy vase.
The third example is in a variegated yellow decor as seen on many examples in the Tango exhibition.
The last example is a variegated pink decor as shown in both Truitt and the Navy Bot museum on an octagonal Welz trophy vase.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81214-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-oxblood-and?in=user

An additional example can be seen in this link, also described as Ruckl.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81059-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-oxblood-re?in=user

And better images of the variegated pink are shown here

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81061-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-striped-pi?in=user

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glasshoarder on April 29, 2013, 12:56:05 AM
Yes Dirk, I agree. This pics for you. Hope it helps!
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 29, 2013, 05:50:33 PM
Brilliant, Craig!  You´re on a roll.  ;D

Thank you, glasshoarder - nice to see it with a different decor!  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 29, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
Dirk, I appreciate that. Better images today I think....
Thanks
Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 29, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
Not been lazy myself either... Waiting for another piece to arrive.  ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 29, 2013, 06:19:24 PM
I also have another example coming which I am pretty sure is in the same decor as the recently posted example.  I look forward to seeing what you have coming....

I am also working on a group of images showing your most recent trophy shape in several other decors, including a Harlequin Honeycomb with a blue ground.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on April 29, 2013, 08:56:33 PM
Great and very interesting Craig, I'm looking forward to the next instalment and to see what shapes there are - thanks so much for sharing.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 29, 2013, 09:47:38 PM
Better pics, and a group shot.  All the same Welz decor.... 
Same interior colors and casing layers. Same color content in the spatter. Similar weight and feel to all of the pieces....
The example stands at 8 inches tall.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 30, 2013, 05:34:30 PM
I think it is important to note, for those following along, that the post on CW regarding the trophy vase shape which can be found at the following link, has now undergone a couple of subtle rewrites.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81570-antonin-ruckl-and-sons-bohemian-1895-yello?in=user

There is a list of 3 attributions the author of the post is claiming to be incorrect. I actually agree that number 1 and 3 are incorrect assessments of the production. The references to "primary documentation" are also new to the post.

#1 is "Identification of American Art Glass" by Richard Carter Barret. This book is copyright 1967.
I quote the poster:
"The glassware shown is noted as being on display at the Bennington Museum. The museum identifies the wares shown as American made glass by The Vasa Murrina Art Glass Company or Hobbs Brockunier. There is no mention of manufacturer marks or labels and no primary documentation was provided. Mr. Barret was the Director & Curator of The Bennington Museum, Bennington, Vermont."

There is no image shown that is identified as being associated with that article.

#2 is  "Collectible Bohemian Glass, 1880-1940" by Robert and Deborah Truitt Copyright 1995.
I quote the poster:
"The author misattributes this shape to 1910 Bohemian glass by Welz."

This was a revision from stating that Truitt attributed the vase to Welz. The poster provides no real support for the position that the ID by Truitt is a misattribution. 

#3 is "Collectors Glass Digest" December / January 1999, Volume XII, Number 4, an article by John Franks.
I quote the poster:
"Page 52, Figure 6, illustrates the same trophy vase shape shown above and in the above referenced book. This time the vase is in rainbow honeycomb spatter decor as shown in the 3rd picture above. The author, John Franks, misattributes theses vases as English in origin and manufactured by glass workers on their own time. There is no mention of manufacturer marks or labels and no primary documentation was provided."

I think that it is important to note that it appears that the Ruckl attribution is being supported by the "incorrectness" of other publications, with no substantial informational support of any kind for the argument that the trophy vase is by Ruckl.

The most recent use of the trophy vase attribution in the Tango exhibit in 2012 and also the references by other reputable museums are simply discounted with the following statement:

"Museum displays, although a good guide for further research, should not be misinterpreted as primary documentation. "

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the poster in this case, also offers no “Primary Documentation”, which I am fairly confident is referencing factory drawings or documents.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on April 30, 2013, 06:34:22 PM
Thanks for the update, Craig. I´m beginning to think I´m stuck in a dream about 1984
and CW is the official magazine of Minitrue.
sigh... to phrase it positively: in ca. 76 revisions the article will attribute them to Welz  ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on April 30, 2013, 07:23:40 PM
Dirk, the most ridiculous part is that in December of 2012, the author of that post and was offering the same pieces on ebay as Welz.... go figure....  I will quote a post I did in that forum that is no longer there. It was a very long discussion with some incredible fairy tales presented as facts....  It was so rich I actually have a PDF copy of it. I read it for chuckles every once in a while.....  it is long gone in it's entirety...... It was my final quote on the "discussion".

“This highway leads to the shadowy tip of reality: you're on a through route to the land of the different, the bizarre, the unexplainable...Go as far as you like on this road. Its limits are only those of mind itself. Ladies and Gentlemen, you're entering the wondrous dimension of imagination. . .  Next stop..... The Twilight Zone."
Rod Serling......

(substitute CW for Twilight)

 ;D
Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on May 12, 2013, 03:22:21 AM
For those still continuing to follow this thread, the link at the top of this page on CW has been modified once again, to reflect yet another ground breaking discovery....

Read for yourself..... Maybe I am being a bit skeptical of the new "discovery" and it's devastating ramifications on our knowledge of glass.....  but it appears that there may be a tpo in  the image name an text applied to the image, no doubt done by the Exhibit Curator themselves, and not some IT guy that may know nothing about glass...

So...... while I was sure I heard Rod Serlings voice and had entered the Twilight Zone, it would appear that I as wrong and Dirk was right.....  The voice I heard must have been George Orwell, the date s 1984, and it is not CW I am reading, but Minitrue....

I  guess what  find most amazing is that it appears that this poster really believes they are right, and the rest of the glass world is wrong.....   ;D :o ;D

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on July 05, 2013, 04:06:16 PM
In an effort to continue and build support for what I believe to be completely mistaken Ruckl attributions, the poster in CW has entered the following information on a post:

The Truitt Welz attribution made sense until December 4, 2012. That's when I found images of the labeled oxblood burchardgalleries (sic) vase and realized my son owns one just like it. The vase he has was purchased in Canada but no longer has a label.

So, in some manner the fact that Ruckl made this piece of glass in an Oxblood spatter decor proves the Truitt attributions to be incorrect.  I would have to point out that the vase in question, which I certainly believe to be Ruckl, is not in any form pictured in Truitt, and the decor being used is not shown in Truitt either.

I have been working on accumulating a variety of oxblood examples and will at some point in the future be posting an article on my website discussing this decor and the many variations.

One initial difference which I have observed is that the Ruckl example being used to build this line of attributions to the trophy vases, is an example of the Oxblood decor which upon close examination of the attached Burchard Gallery image (used with the express permission of the gallery owner) shows that the interior of the piece is lined with what appears to be more of a matte finish glass, and not a layer of glossy clear.

While I know that a different interior finish would certainly not be enough to attribute a piece of glass in a similar decor, to me a different interior finish would also exclude it from being attributed based on a similar exterior decor. It would certainly require at least a secondary link to make such an attribution leap.  As an example, a known shape in an recognized decor with the same interior lining would help to support an attribution.

I am also attaching an image of a vase I purchased to examine both the decor and techniques. Although the first glance would have it appear to resemble some Welz examples as far as shape, an examination of the technique reveals that the interior is not lined with a clear, but matte like the Ruckl example. It is also in a decor I have not seen on any known Welz shapes. In light of this, the example must remain as an unknown house until further links can be established to determine, if possible, who actually made it.

The first image below shows the interior of the labeled Oxblood spatter Ruckl vase with a matte interior lining.
The second image shows the interior of the Welz Oxblood spatter trophy vase.
The third image shows the interior of the unknown burnt orange spangle vase with a matte interior lining.
The 4th image shows the unknown burnt orange spangle vase.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on July 05, 2013, 05:46:58 PM
Another example of the burnt orange spangle decor (great name you have coined there) on a different shape for reference, it looks to me like mica covered with amber glass that achieves the effect.

John
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on July 06, 2013, 01:35:16 AM
I love this one!!  The organic form of this one is great.....   The decor looks the same, and amber casing is the same. It is notable that the interior of your piece appears to be lined with either a glossy finish glass, or a lining of clear as opposed to mine which is matte or flat.  Also, is the color in the pic accurate to your vases interior color?

I do have a question about yours. If I run my finger on the inside of my vase, the surface is textured, and not smooth. What is it like on yours?

Craig

Thanks for posting this one....  great piece.... 
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on July 06, 2013, 10:23:14 AM
The inner layer of this one is clear glass, so it is clear/terracotta/amber in construction, the inside is not perfectly smooth - it is slightly bumpy, easier to feel than see.

The previous photos were lit with electric light, the following daylight only, I would say the colour is pretty true.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on July 06, 2013, 02:04:03 PM
Thanks.... an interesting comparison... same with my example, easier to feel the bumps on the interior than to see them....  Interesting that the inner color on the two is pretty different, but the exterior is for all appearances, the same.

How tall is your piece?

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on July 06, 2013, 03:09:52 PM
Height is 6½ inches or 16.5cm. 

I only bought this one because of the unfamiliar shape and decor, it cost buttons because there is a huge crack around the waist almost cutting it in two.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on July 06, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Thanks, Shame it is cracked. A great reference piece though.....   The decor is unusual, and that is one thing that drew me to it. The shape on yours is very unique.....  Not like anything I have seen that I can think of.....

I would be surprised if the two pieces are not the same house....  but we will likely never know....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on July 08, 2013, 04:41:48 PM
An example of the Ruckl Oxblood vase has appeared on CW which is stated to have a clear lined interior. This example does not have a label but does appear to be the same as the labeled piece in terms of shape, applied rigaree, foot crimp design and also basic decor.  Where the poster there seems to use the clear casing as a marker for Ruckl productioin in many of the other posts posts claiming Ruckl attributions, the fact that this decor and shape appear in both a clear lined and obviously matte unlined interior would immediately discount the use of this clear lining as a marker for production by any house as is being claimed. Many of the Welz trophy vases I have are lined with clear.
 
Although the fact that many respectable authorities and museums attribute some definitive trophy vase shapes and decors to Welz, the seemingly misguided Ruckl attributions of these shapes and decors continue to persist in collector forums.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on August 08, 2013, 06:45:21 PM
I recently acquired a pair of Welz Oxblood Trophy vases in a rarely seen shape that was included in the Tango Exhibit. The example of this shape shown in the exhibition was in Variegated Pink and White. This is only the second or 3rd example of this form I have seen, and to find it in the distinctive Oxblood decor with the fairly distinctive interior color was a bonus. These examples are the end pieces in the first image.

In all examples of this decor, and other also shown in these images, the interior is lined with clear. This varies from the labeled Oxblood Ruckl example as it does not have a clear lining, while there is another example without a label posted on CW which is said to have a clear lining.

I think all this proves overall (the lining that is) is that this type of production detail would certainly not be a marker for any one company. This is stronly supported by the fact that the same shape and decor from the same company is found both with and without an inner lining of clear.

The images below are as described:
1) Welz Oxblood decor examples, with the center back piece having a different interior color. In the case of the different interior color, it gives the example a slightly different look overall. The shape is a well known Welz trophy shape.
2) Welz Oxblood grouping , all examples having the same casing layers and interior colors.
3) Welz Oxblood examples on unique Welz shapes.
4) Welz trophy vases, and as with most houses, same shapes were produced in different sizes. In this case, the large trophy vases are not seen all that frequently. Certainly less common than the smaller form.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on August 08, 2013, 06:48:21 PM
I am adding detailed images of the 6 sided trophy vases. Although these examples have a geometric body style and base, the height of these is basically the same as the trophy vases above in the group shot with the large pink example.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on August 08, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
Lastly, the pink and white version of this geometric trophy form as shown in the Tango Exhibit in 2011. Image compliments of Dirk!
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on August 09, 2013, 06:12:23 AM
Great identification :) -  using examples to illustrate your id works really well as a visual explanation, as well as  having the links to the same shaped Welz pieces in the Tango exhibition.

You're building up a nice collection of the Welz trophy vases there  ;D  they actually look great as a group especially putting the same decors together in different shapes/sizes.

m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on August 09, 2013, 02:37:47 PM
Thanks M.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 04, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
I find it necessary to report that a CW member who goes by a different name here has linked to one of my pics and is referring to them as photo shopped to alter the decor colors. The claim is that the item, the center front piece in the last image showing a trophy group in the group shots above, is actually a Ruckl decor altered to look different from an actual Ruckl example with a label.

All of my images are shot in a photo booth with multiple light source types to try to insure accurate colors, and not photo shopped to alter appearances in any way.

I am only adding this as an aid to those from CW that may make their way here in this forum as a result of the image link.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on September 04, 2013, 05:40:33 PM
Thank you for the update, Craig! (I won´t comment further than that ;) )

Since the article also links to the thorn vases.... My personal idea would be (as you know) that these are
actually Welz, too, like most of the things shown on that Butler´s page.
I was hoping for some examples to back up this idea, but meanwhile there´s only these two, which do
however strongly point towards that direction IMHO.
Is there actually any other maker known for making those ball-shaped bases?

(sorry, bad quality picture)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 04, 2013, 06:16:54 PM
Hi Dirk, Thanks for adding those pics. I am unaware of anyone else making the tri-balled foot.

I agree with you.... The right piece is Welz, and the left piece I would attribute to Welz at this point. It is clear from Butler that Welz at least made some thorn vases, and the left example certainly looks like a good possibility.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on September 04, 2013, 10:07:59 PM
nice!! I like those - the colour combination is lovely :)
is the green uranium at all?
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on September 05, 2013, 07:45:50 AM
A couple more trophies for reference, not sure if we have had this combination of shape and decor before, apologies for the Welz Bubbles vase that is trying to creep into the shot.

John

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 05, 2013, 01:43:49 PM
Thanks John 

Very Nice examples..... I have not seen these before.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on September 05, 2013, 07:24:33 PM
Nice ones,  John!  :D

M, sorry I forgot to mention... Yes, completely uranium, also the oxblood-speckled tubes.  :)
And rather tall at ~32 and 35cm.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on September 08, 2013, 08:42:12 PM
They're delicious :)
I don't know whether Welz had a 'colour designer' but they had a particularly beautiful way of combining colours I've noticed.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 08, 2013, 10:05:59 PM
Hi M,

The Passau actually wrote in the short mention of Welz in their books, that Welz actually worked to separate themselves from the larger houses by differentiating their production artistically.  As I developed a feel for their production and identified different decors and shapes, I started to see that a good portion of their production really does stand out in many different ways. One of the most prominent of those is their use of some pretty wild and unique color combinations.

It was actually not until I had researched them for a couple of years that I even translated and read what Passau had given them in the way of a small mention.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on September 13, 2013, 08:22:31 PM
Here´s a few new suspects. I managed to find this new shape in two different decors: red with white stripes,
opalescent layer and green rigaree - and light blue opalescent with electric blue rigaree. The little lifelight in
the same colour scheme came last week on a flea-market.

The basket (the one in the foreground) is an already known Welz shape. Unfortunately I missed the matching
vase in another auction by this seller, but he kindly permitted to use his auction photo here. Thanks!
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on September 13, 2013, 08:41:02 PM
love the first two!  I've been keeping an eye out for one with the vertical applied rigaree - I really like the design of it.
Craig, yes, their colours are pretty special and quite unique in the way they use them.
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 14, 2013, 01:41:41 AM
Dirk, Those trophy pieces are great.....  Love them both....

I think there could be a possibility that the last piece could also be Harrach. They did some similar items with the style of foot, stripes and the colors. Not seen the rim on it before though...  All cool pieces....  Baskets are great also....  nice finds....  My favorite would be the red and green trophy piece....  WOW....

I am adding a couple of new pieces I have been able to get my hands on recently.

A blue variegated trophy.... not a decor I have seen on one of these before.
 
Also, a yellow variegated tri-lobed heart form. The unique feature of this one is the different style of foot decor. This style of base also helps point to some other suspected pieces that had this style of foot. Although the piece itself stands a little shorter than my other examples of this form with the more typical appliques on the base top, the main body of the piece is the same dimensions, so the difference is in the foot appliques themselves....

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 14, 2013, 07:06:17 PM
Does that make this Welz?  http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=416
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 14, 2013, 09:46:51 PM
The style of the applied foot would lead me to lean that direction, as it is a little unusual, and I have not seen that many examples using it. I am of course referring to the three "fins" on the top of the base.

That being said there is an image on the second page of this discussion which Kristi posted that shows some Harrach pieces as displayed in Passau. Taking that with a grain of salt, there is a similar decor shown among those examples, and I am referring to Amber glass with vertical wide stripes in it.

Based on foot design, and it's uniqueness, I would likely say there is a strong possibility it is Welz. Much more likely than not, I think.

Here is another example, image by Daniel "Griffiths.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/art-of-glass/8523068361/in/set-72157632900402241/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/art-of-glass/sets/72157630539984478/

Although a couple of these images in the group associated with the first link are labeled as Ruckl, I do not believe this is a Ruckl shape or decor.  The pink and green mica decor is found on several distinctive Welz shapes including the trophy vases in several forms and also on the tri-lobed heart form.  This example Daniel posted in his Flickr account also has this very distinctive foot design.

These pieces, are also in my opinion, most likely Welz production.

Hope that helps.... 

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: dirk. on September 15, 2013, 12:10:36 PM
Hi Craig,
I was leaning towards Welz for the vase also, because of a certain common feature between basket and
vase. Both show a top rim with a few mm just cranberry which then gradually fades to the inside of the
pieces.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: keith on September 15, 2013, 12:51:20 PM
Another colour variation,as requested... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 28, 2013, 11:06:15 PM
I am posting some images in an effort to enable the further clarification of what I feel are the distinct dangers of using indistinct spatter decors as a method of attribution. The decor in question is the one which has been utilized in an effort to link certain families of shapes to houses other than Welz. This decor can be most easily described as an Oxblood Spatter. In examining this style of decor as a means of attributing glass, it is critical that all aspects of the decor, and production techniques of the pieces, be taken into consideration. This of course needs to be done while considering shapes at same time.

This Oxblood spatter decor is found in a wide variety of shapes, and also in some quite different production technique configurations. These differences will be what I am looking at here.

The first image being presented below is of two pieces which are not only the same in terms of external decor and colors, but also the same in regards to to the visible lining color. In both cases these internal lining "colors" are cased with a thin layer of clear. The technique on these is the same, and both unique shapes have been linked successfully to Welz production. The non trophy example shown in that image, simply confirmed to me that the shape is a Welz shape. I would point out that the form is quite simplistic, and one needs to be extremely careful when attributing simplistic, but "similar" shapes to the same house.

We know for a fact that Ruckl made a similar shape and decor vase as the right example in the first image, but both the base and exact shape are different. The known Ruckl example also has applied Rigaree that trails down the body of the example in a spiral. 

The second image shows a group of Oxblood examples. Although a quick glance may give one the impression that there is a commonality between all of these and they came from the same house, that conclusion is, IMHO, incorrect.  I believe there are at least two distinct houses represented in the group, and possibly even three.

Of the seven pieces represented in the photograph, five are Welz, and I believe that two are not. At this point I am unsure of the origins of the pieces not produced by Welz.  Those pieces are the front left example and the tall piece in the back center. 

The Welz examples represented here are of two styles. The initial pieces shown in the first image are ones that share a common interior color, which is kind of a brick red. This color is lined with clear. The other examples are Welz examples which are lined in a kind of orange/yellow interior color which I simply call Cadmium. this internal color is also lined with clear. Although the external colors of clear, Oxblood and also white are the same in both styles of this decor by Welz, the overall appearance is slightly different as determined by the internal solid color background which was used.

What we see in the two non Welz examples are actually a visual presentation which from the outside appears to present the same, or quite similar decor.  In these examples the use of of colors is different.  The smaller piece is actually lined with a white, covered in clear. This example may, or may not be Welz, and for now I am leaving it as unidentified, as neither the decor or shape can currently be linked to Welz production.

The large example in the back also presents a decor which appears to be quite similar to the identified Welz examples, but in reality it is uniquely different from the Welz decors. This example has a decor background of white, a thick layer which can be seen quite clearly in the image of the mouth. Internal to that is a layer of light color, almost a Cranberry or Rose color. This internal color has no clear lining covering it.  This addition of internal color has no effect on the overall appearance of the decor as seen from the outside, as the white layer appears opaque. It appears to have been used to simply decorate the interior as visible at the mouth of the piece.  This particular technique is certainly not unique to Czech production, but it is not a technique that has been identified, at least yet, as a production or design technique used by Welz.  This example also has traces of what I refer to as Cadmium in the decor, but in this case it is mixed with the other colors to create the decor. In the case of the Welz production, the Cadmium is used as a background color which shows between the Oxblood and the white.

The third and fourth images show this large example alone, and also a detail of the internal layers and colors.

I hope my explanation here is clear.....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 29, 2013, 09:19:10 AM
Good research Craig. Here's another large trophy for the collection (if it's not Welz please ask the mods to delete)
Yellow, brown and orange enamelling. The mucky greenish white is definitely uranium glass

The mucky greenish white also reminded me if this "melon" vase, which is much less green in real life. Might this be Welz
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on September 29, 2013, 02:30:04 PM
Thanks Christine,

I have seen these white examples a handful of times. I do not really know either way. 

The melon shaped piece is not like anything I have determined to be Welz as of yet. Does not mean it isn't. I am sure there is a huge amount of glass that I, not others, will likely never figure out.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 04, 2013, 03:51:39 PM
I posted this vase in it's own thread, but thought I would also add it here as a new example of both decor and size. 10 inches tall and a green and white variegated I have never seen before... at least that I can recall.....

The pics are from the online auction, and used with the sellers permission.

I will add better pics when I receive the item.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 10, 2013, 10:39:10 PM
Let me start by adding better pics of the Welz variegated green trophy vase as promised. Also posted here with an image of it's smaller counterpart.  Color in the third pic is most accurate. 
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 10, 2013, 11:29:25 PM
So now I have a very interesting piece of glass, and an even more interesting comparison. I think that what we have here is a stellar example of why attention to details is so critical in the type of research I try to do regarding Welz production.

The first image in this portion of the post is of a group of 4 pieces of glass, all in the same decor. All react the same to UV light, with a glow of orange from the cadmium used to color one of the the lining layers. All of these contain the same colors of spatter in the decor and all exhibit the same type of spatter decor and variations.  I have previously linked the front 3 shapes to Welz though other decors, and I am certain of those links.  The color mix, and shades of colors used in this spatter are unique enough characteristics that I am of the belief that it is specific to one house, and not produced by multiple houses. Obviously I believe that house is Welz.

The vase in the background of the first image presents a real conundrum. I also have a covered biscuit jar in the same decor, not included in the group image.

So here is what I see with this large example in the rear of the image. I have this example in hand, and I have two images of Ruckl vases in the "same" shape. One which is used here with permission of the auction house, and the other is an image from Collectors Weekly and posted by the user who promotes his "Ruckl Research". A close comparison of those two Ruckl images brings me to conclusion that the two Oxblood pieces presented as Ruckl are actually the same. The Auction vase pictured here actually has a label which has been posted in this thread previously.

So when I found this vase I was quite shocked, as it appeared for all intents and purposes to be the same as the Ruckl, but in a decor which I have solidly linked to Welz production. It was an immediate purchase the second I saw it. The example of the Ruckl vase in Collectors Weekly provides dimension of the piece, and within reason the dimensions are also the same. Small differences here and there, but the differences could easily be attributed to different production runs or molds, so they are not of real importance as far as attribution is concerned.

In examining the Ruckl images before, I have done a "count" of the number of crimps in the applied clear trim at the foot. Although both of the Ruckl examples do not show a complete foot, both show enough for me to arrive at a pretty safe conclusion that they have the same number of foot crimps. Both of them appear to have 26 crimps which can be seen, and likely 30-32 crimps in the foot based on the percentage of the foot hidden by the stem and lower portion of the main body in the pics.

Although a quick glance at the two decors in this shape would lead one to assume they are the same, and therefore by the same house, the Welz piece I currently have in hand actually has a total of 26 crimps.  Although there appears to be a possible difference in the style and weight of the applied rigaree, this type of applique is such that I would not really give any weight to that difference.  There also appears to be a difference in the foot of the colored portion of the two vases, in that the Welz foot is taller than the Ruckl foot. This could also be as a result of slightly different molds, so that difference is not really given any weight at this point either. The real difference between these pieces is the number of crimps in the foot. My suspicion at this point is that the crimping tool used for these two production examples, the Ruckl and the Welz, although quite similar, were different enough that I would expect additional examples of this shape by either company would exhibit the same crimp count.

So at this point here is my working theory. I believe that the examples pictured here may be the closest replications of competitive product I have seen to date. Referred to on my website as a "Design shift", or the intentional mimicking of the physical shape of a competitors product.  I do believe the two examples compared here were produced by different firms, and only time, and the location of additional examples will prove out the theory one way or the other.  I certainly have learned to be patient while doing this research, and time has taught me that eventually the necessary information comes to light... that either reinforces or rebuffs the theory.

Until those examples appear, I am comfortable with my working theory stated above.

First image is of the decor on 4 Welz shapes.
Second image is of the Welz and Ruckl examples side by side
Third image is of three large examples representing 2, approx 10 inch trophy shapes  in two different Welz shapes, and the recently acquired bud style vase measuring in at just over 12 inches.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on October 11, 2013, 12:10:55 AM
'So here is what I see with this large example in the rear of the image. I have this example in hand, and I have two images of Ruckl vases in the "same" shape. One which is used here with permission of the auction house, and the other is an image from Collectors Weekly and posted by the user who promotes his "Ruckl Research". A close comparison of those two Ruckl images brings me to conclusion that the two Oxblood pieces presented as Ruckl are actually the same. The Auction vase pictured here actually has a label which has been posted in this thread previously.'

Just checking, since there is only one Oxblood picture on your post above, that what you mean here is that you have in your hand, a picture of another Oxblood vase but you've only put one on here that you have permission to post.  Therefore when you are doing your comparison, you are comparing the one you've put on here, with the other Oxblood that you have a picture of but that you haven't posted on this board?

Other than that query, I follow all that :) - An exciting working theory! I'll keep an eye out for any (and count the crimps before I buy).

Love the green!
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 11, 2013, 03:29:19 AM
Hi M, Yes that is exactly right.

Aside from having physical possession of the tall piece in spatter, I have images of 2 of the Oxblood pieces. The one from the auction posted here which has the Ruckl label, that the auction owner allowed me to use, and the one posted in CW, which is a different piece of glass, but the same as the auction example. I compared those two examples to each other, and also to my spatter example. The user that posts in CW, and has also posted in this thread, does not believe in ever allowing anyone to use their images, although the same user posts images in CW that are not theirs.

I always respect GMB policy about image permissions. I would make note that in the US, where both the CW poster and I are located, I can legally use a percentage of their images without express permission for educational and research purposes. It is out of respect for the GMB that I do not do so on the board. 

It is also my understanding that Fair Use laws in the US are different from regulations in the UK and other regions.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on October 11, 2013, 10:42:34 AM
I'm going to have a look through my images.  I'm sure I had a vase with trailed rigaree spiral but I can't remember what kind of foot it had.  Did I send you pics of that one?
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 11, 2013, 01:18:57 PM
Hi M, Yes you did. It was a honeycomb example with a different foot.  The piece on the left in this comparison. This was used in an article I did ion CW, that I have been remiss in putting up on my website. It discusses the pitfalls of using simple shapes and not examining every detail. similar to the comparison of the foot design in the discussion above. It would be easy to miss the difference in crimp count if one were not paying attention.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on October 28, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
A recent acquisition in a decor not often seen. The tri-lobed heart example, the top of which is shown in the second image on the right, is an example which was badly damaged in shipping. I hung on to the remnants and glued what I could together for the purpose of research study.  I am including an image of the damaged vase as it appeared when purchased. Images used with the permission of the seller.

The appearance of the decor on the distinctive tri-lobed heart shape provides confirmation that the decor was by Welz. I have never seen an example of the tri-lobed heart shape in a decor linked to any other house through any supportable research.

The example in the first image is one I acquired recently in the same decor, but in a shape I have never seen before.

This is a new shape which I believe is Welz. The example stands at the same height of approx 7.5 inches. This is a similar height to the tri-lobed heart designs, which vary slightly with the applied feet.

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on January 30, 2014, 05:42:18 PM
A new pair of Welz vases in a familiar decor and a new shape.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: keith on January 30, 2014, 06:06:32 PM
Is that aventurine? not seen any Welz with aventurine,got my eye on a pair of ox-blood trophy vases,if they're still there, ::) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on January 30, 2014, 06:14:41 PM
It is green glass with finely ground mica.... they seemed to like that a bit....
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on January 30, 2014, 08:54:21 PM
ooh, they've got the same dimples as my one Craig  :)

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52402.0.html
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on January 30, 2014, 10:56:19 PM
I forgot about yours....  here they are side by side... 

Thanks for the reminder....  and it really helps to confirm the ID on yours also.....

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 01, 2014, 09:52:15 AM
excellent  ;D

I'm trying to sort out a selection of trophy vases I seem to keep acquiring at the moment and an oxblood thing on a stem too - would you mind casting your eyes over them for me Craig?
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 01, 2014, 03:57:27 PM
Not at all. Email images direct if you want, or post here and I can look.

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 02, 2014, 07:12:55 PM
thanks Craig.

3 toe-d stem vase

clear cased, maroon/plum interior, oxblood & white? decor. Does not glow under UV so no cadmium colourant.

clear applied frill

Ht: 8.5 inches (21.5cm)

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 02, 2014, 07:56:21 PM
Looks like Welz to me, although I do not remember ever seeing the shape before.  Love the shape of it!!  I have a yellow variegated tri-lobed heart with the same foot as this piece although it is shorter.... The foot design is not all that common....   My trophy vase example in oxblood is the same layering of glass as this piece is with the same interior color.  Great piece.

OK to use your pics?

Thanks, Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on February 02, 2014, 08:01:35 PM
it reminds me a little of this one
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 02, 2014, 08:06:01 PM
For sure....  I have always liked that one....
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: flying free on February 02, 2014, 08:08:35 PM
I did too, before I dropped it  ;D
m
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 02, 2014, 08:10:31 PM
 :'(
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 03, 2014, 01:40:55 PM
thanks for the confirmation Craig, much appreciated. Of course you are welcome to the pictures  :)

M, I remember you posting when you broke that vase, I knew I'd seen a similar one somewhere just couldn't place it - til now lol


will try and sort the trophy vases out for a pic this eve

cheers, Mel
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 06, 2014, 09:16:11 PM
apologies for tardiness been having blonde moments! can only find these 3 at the moment  ::)

the pair have yellow interiors, look identical in real life and surprisingly different in the photo

Ht: 6.25 inches tall

single one has plum interior and is 6.75 inches tall

any comments gratefully received

Mel
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 06, 2014, 09:35:16 PM
Can you take pics in natural light? The colors look kind of all the same in these pics to me. I think the top pair are Welz, but can not see the decor well enough. The lower one is a classic Welz trophy shape. I have the shape in about 6 or 7 different decors....

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 06, 2014, 10:18:56 PM
thanks Craig, will do- it has to stop raining here soon lol
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 13, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
finally got me, my camera, the glass and daylight all together in one room  ;D
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on February 13, 2014, 05:15:36 PM
The pair certainly look like what I refer to as Cadmium Spatter by Welz. A fairly unique color combination in a spatter decor. The other vase is a classic Welz shape in a color combination I have not seen before, especially the interior color.

I would say they are all Welz production.

Thanks... Much nicer pics too!!

OK to copy and use them?

Craig
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: bfg on February 13, 2014, 10:34:50 PM
thank you for your prompt response Craig, much appreciated. As always, you are more than welcome to the pictures  :)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on May 19, 2017, 09:13:14 PM
On page 11 of this discussion I posted a burnt orange decor which I have suspected for a long time is Welz. Immediately following that post John posted a very organic form in the same decor, at that point in 2013 it was unidentified.

I recently have come into possession of a Welz trophy vase in a shape confirmed with about 5 or 6 different décors. That trophy vase is the same décor as the examples on page 11 shown by myself and John.  The trophy vase, I believe, was sold to a refiner who applied the metal base and the white enameling.

I am of the opinion that this trophy vase supports the idea that Welz made the décor, and that both my example and John's are Welz production.  I am posting a couple of image showing my trophy vase, the Vase of John's, and also a couple of other Mica infused décors by Welz.

The green example is actually on a shape which has been identified with discovered production literature as being by Welz.

I would also note that the two example I own, and the one by John, are the extent of pieces I have seen in the décor.

Well..... that only took 4 years!!  :-)
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on May 20, 2017, 05:54:21 PM
Thanks for keeping us in the loop Craig. Just looked back through this thread and what a journey!

John
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on May 20, 2017, 05:59:58 PM
My pleasure John....  It has been, at the least, a very interesting journey..... 
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on May 21, 2017, 08:52:40 AM
A fair few roads out there to be navigated too, with plenty of unidentified Bohemian/Czech glass still to be researched.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on May 26, 2017, 04:16:25 PM
Posting this trophy vase because I did not find another with this exact shape, the vase is 8" or 20cm tall, cut rim and white interior.

Another Welz trophy shape is very similar though, shown here with a pink and green decor (without mica):
http://cf.collectorsweekly.com/stories/DXfgicqPo42C7cbbgtD4og.jpg

John

Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: obscurities on May 26, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
That is a great shape. It is one I have not seen before.  Thanks for adding it.
Title: Re: Uranium Opalescent Rigaree/Trailed Bud Vase I.D Request
Post by: glassobsessed on May 26, 2017, 04:29:03 PM
Found this one on Monday, no idea at the time that it was anything other than 'ordinary'.