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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: dfernbach on April 03, 2006, 11:59:22 AM

Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: dfernbach on April 03, 2006, 11:59:22 AM
I kind of feel like I'm involved in a television game show these days.  It involves a bunch of paperweights.  One is worth thousands of dollars, the others are more valuable if made into windowpanes???

This one strikes me as interesting because the maker somehow got a mirror effect into the weight.  At first glance it looks like there is a crack in the paperweight running from the edge of the flower (at least I think it's a flower) all the way to the bottom and extending from the body of the ?flower? to the edge.

On closer examination - it is not a crack per se, as it does not get to the outside surface of the weight.  It does create a neato mirror within the paperweight - if you compare the first two pictures you'll see that I rotated the weight enough to move the 'mirror' from one side to the other.

http://i2.tinypic.com/swzaqb.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/swzb0p.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/swzbf6.jpg

Okay, let's not all rush to tell me it's a piece of glass and nothing more interesting!

By the way, if you care, it's about 3 inches high.
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: Leni on April 03, 2006, 01:02:57 PM
Does look like the 'crack' is an annealing fault of some sort, to me   :shock:

I've got a similar style weight with a Mtarfa label, but mine's not a pedestal weight.  I've also seen others in this style, but don't remember any IDs, I'm afraid  :?
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: KevinH on April 03, 2006, 02:26:24 PM
This is American.

It's a Millville (Whitall Tatum?) "Lily" with an "umbrella" form. The style with the pedestal foot is perhaps the most common version. It could have been made from around the mid 19th century to the 1940s.

Hard to say from the images whether the internal fault is a stress fracture or a large air bubble, but if looks like a crack then that is most likely. Either way, it probably means it is of very little commercial value.
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: ALLAN on April 03, 2006, 08:34:28 PM
Hi,
   The "crack" looks exactly like what we get when we have a compatibility problem with different colours in one weight.Whenever it happens to us it tends to be because of the white glass.We did one recently based on the titanic and we had a lot of problems at the start of the run because of the amount of white used for the iceberg part of the design.
             Allan
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: dfernbach on April 04, 2006, 09:57:49 AM
Thank you, Allan.  May I ask what company you're with (or do you work for yourself)?

I got a comment from Jerry Gard, which is posted in the e-bay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7404495762&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

Clearly Whital Tatum had the same problem that you describe - the only difference seemingly being that you have chosen to not release your weights to the public until you resolved the problem, while Whital Tatum apparently chose to release their weights.  I wonder if they ever did find a repeatable solution.


I would like to copy your explanation to the listing as part of my ongoing efforts to educate the public.  Would that be acceptable?  If 'yes', would you like attribution?
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: Simone on April 04, 2006, 10:58:54 AM
Hi Don,

Allan Scott is one of the master lampworkers at Caithness and you should see his work!

Some of it is just so amazing, it'll take your breath away.

http://www.ysartglass.com/Scotglass/AllanScott.htm
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: dfernbach on April 04, 2006, 11:32:20 AM
Simone
Your description of Allan's weights ("amazing") does not do them justice.  I'm afraid that we may need to invent a new adjective.

Yes, I am still trying to catch my breath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: Leni on April 04, 2006, 11:56:34 AM
He's a really nice, helpful guy, too.   :D I just bought a new one of his!   8)  :P  Still catching my breath!  :shock:  :wink:
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: Anne on April 04, 2006, 02:32:01 PM
They are fantastic indeed. And I just love the On the Piste one with the ski-ing bear - it's such fun!  8)
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: ALLAN on April 04, 2006, 07:04:09 PM
Hi again,
            Don, feel free to use my post as you want and it's entirely up to you if you want to attribute it to me;I certainly do not mind either way.I would like to add that the company that made the weight probably did not sell the weight knowing it had a problem as these types of stress cracks can take years to appear.All it would take to start the crack would be someone leaving it on a window ledge in the full sunlight.We get round the problem of stress fractures by simply revising the compatibility of the colours;either by simply buying from a different manufacturer or changing our own glass batch mix.Thankfully we haven't had to do this very often.
             
P.s. Sorry for making all you kind people get "breathless",I wouldn't want to have to put a health warning on my work  :lol: .
Seriously, thanks for your nice comments again.
                                         Allan
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: dfernbach on April 04, 2006, 10:01:54 PM
Allan - what is really interesting is that Jerry Gard (I have no idea who in the paperweight community knows whom, so I don't know if you're familiar with him) sent me a note about the Whital-Tatum umbrella design weights, and commented that he has 2 with similar cracks.

How likely would it be that a series of similar weights would, with time, develop similar cracks.  I had thought that it would probably have occurred in the annealing process more frequently, but then I'm just an accountant - you're the expert in the field.

Jerry's entire comment is in my ebay posting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7404495762&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: ALLAN on April 05, 2006, 07:07:51 PM
Hi Don,
          No I am afraid to say that I don't know Jerry.You are correct in assuming that most compatibility problems show up during the annealing process.However it is possible that the style of weight we are talking about could have been produced and sold before the problem came to light and therefore a batch of similar cracked weights would come to light at around the same time.We most notably had a small glitch of this kind at the start of making our "triple magnum " sized weights many years ago;these monsters weighed in at about 9-10 kgs each and we misjudged the annealing time,which we did not realise untill a while after the first ones sold.They seemed perfect when they were sent out, but after a couple of collectors got in touch to say theirs had split,we changed the annealing time to 48hrs and the problem was solved.The collectors were obviously given replacements with much apologies.
          I would like to think the makers of the umbrella weights were ignorant of the problem; as the alternative theory, that they sold them knowing there was a fault,is a really awful thing to do to your collectors.
                          Allan
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: dfernbach on April 05, 2006, 07:30:59 PM
Allan,

I certainly did not intend to imply that Whital Tatum would have sold the weights thinking that they could crack.  If nothing else, an artist would not lower himself like that.

I was speculating that perhaps the fractures occurred at the plant, and the decision was made to release them with the fractures.  I for one think that the fractures actually make for an interesting feature!  They also clearly make each piece unique!
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: ALLAN on April 05, 2006, 08:13:57 PM
Hi Don,
          Your post certainly didn't imply anything bad of the makers,I was just making a general observation on the subject.I wonder if they sold seconds from their glassworks, maybe it would be an explanation for their existence.I also agree that the stress fractures can be fascinating for people;I keep a pre-production sample of a weight called "African adventure" in my workshop to show collectors.The base colour we tried first did not match the clear glass so it has a very smooth mirror crack which covers half of the area where the two meet.Any visitors we get are always intriqued by it and the reasons for it.Unfortunately it is slowly spreading,( I think because of the heat in the workshop),so probably it will eventually fall apart.Nevermind, I am sure another example will appear when we least want it to  :lol:
                          Allan
Title: another one I don't know.
Post by: m1asmithw8s on April 09, 2006, 03:46:40 PM
Re. Those who made paperweights & related objects circa the turn of the 20th century at Whital Tatum in Millville, NJ:

These makers include Ralph Barber, John Rhulander, Michael Kane, Marcus Kuntz, Emil Stanger to name the most famous.

These makers made weights on their own time. Whital Tatum was a glass factory that made bottles, glasses, mugs, pitchers, etc...Not paperweights.

As such, those who chose to make weights made them on their own time during lunch or before or after hours.

Back then, little was known about co efficients of expansion and glass color compatibility and the like. So there was a bit of the luck of the draw there.
Also, their annealing ovens were used by many and for Factory work, not simply for paperweights.
As such, the doors to the ovens were opened for factory product to be placed inside, this often causing undo rapid cooling & stressto the demonstrably thicker, solid cased paperweights.

So then, why did weights that came out of the oven cracked make their way out of the factory?
Probably because the makers were still proud of them, treasured their work, and did not want to destroy their labour.

Furthermore, back in those days, most of what they made were given as gifts or traded for other goods. They were Not sold for cash.

Finally, Allan is correct in that many weights with internal stressors do Not show their cracks until long after they were made.
So if many of those made at Millville back in the day often had color compatibility issues or were poorly annealed, then some would show a crack(s) immediately while others might go a long time before the stressor commenced to cracking.

Here is a nice view of a footed Millville Lily that I own that isn't cracked:

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1513

I hope all of the above is helpful   :)