Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: yesvil on June 06, 2011, 02:45:54 PM

Title: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: yesvil on June 06, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
Simple but great quality & finish!

The rim is bevelled on both sides it has a bit of base wear and stands about 100mm tall.

Any Ideas? - please.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/skillkraft/5804594954/
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere for id
Post by: nigel benson on June 06, 2011, 03:17:04 PM

It's Caithness, designed by Colin Terris.

Rose Bowl, design number 4071, 1970's - 1990's (from M Hill, 2011).

Nigel
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere for id
Post by: yesvil on June 06, 2011, 03:49:27 PM
It's Caithness, designed by Colin Terris.

Rose Bowl, design number 4071, 1970's - 1990's (from M Hill, 2011).

Nigel

Thank you Nigel. I guess mine is Kingfisher?
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere for id
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 06, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
 :thud:
Ummm, no, it's a deep smoky blue - kingfisher is a more turquoise shade of blue. Mostly, the name "kingfisher" is used to refer to a specific Whitefriars colour - it's a bit brighter and deeper than early Mdina blues, for example and I'm sure folk will say it's different to other turquoisey/kingfishery blues which abound too - I've never studied all the different teal shades - I just mostly like them.
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere for id
Post by: Anne on June 06, 2011, 08:32:46 PM
This is Caithness' Kingfisher colour:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-11040
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: nigel benson on June 06, 2011, 08:56:14 PM

The original Caithness colours are: Heather, Loch, Moss, Peat.

Loch was replaced by Twilight - a more apt use of the name than by Whitefriars IMHO !! This is what you have I would think.

Kingfisher was similar to that by Whitefriars and was/is a form of turquoise, as so eloquently discussed by Sue above.

Nigel
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: yesvil on June 06, 2011, 09:39:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I still think this is a close colour match to a real Kingfisher though ;)
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 09, 2011, 10:00:03 PM
That was an incorrect attribution! It is the Stroma Rose Bowl designed by Domhnall Ó Broin

Link to SG example (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=926&category_id=90&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6)

I may have a design date in the pipe-line.

Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: nigel benson on June 09, 2011, 10:33:20 PM

That is very interesting. Thank you Frank. I will make a notation in Hill's book.

I notice although you have given us more information, Mark has got the general description and pattern number correct. Good to have a name for the design  :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 09, 2011, 10:35:42 PM
Yep, did ask for a review copy ages ago but did not get one... can't afford to buy one. Book certainly could do with a review on SG, care to write one Nigel? If anyone would like to donate a copy for SG that would be appreciated of course!
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: nigel benson on June 10, 2011, 12:21:08 PM
Hi Frank,

I did a critique and sent it into the GA, but they wanted me to extend it and add some photos of items that Graham Cooley doesn't have :o Your more than welcome to have a copy for the SG. I'll emaill you.

Cheers, Nigel

PS. Very few publishers send out free review copies these days it seems. I tried when I was editor of the Glass Cone - but to no avail!
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 10, 2011, 12:25:14 PM
I am now seriously confused. I went to the "Loch Heather & Peat" exhibition just about 4 weeks ago (it's on in Perth), and there I saw a jug, some glasses and a decanter which were clearly labelled "Stroma". I was very interested to find out the name, as I have a Stroma jug - a piece I got a long time ago, not having a clue what it might be, just that it reeked quality and good design.

Stroma, according to my memory of the exhiition, and my handling of my own piece, came in two colours - one bluish, the other more browny - but both very dark smoky colours - the blue is darker than this rose bowl.
Also, in the Stroma range, the glass is unusually (for Caithness) thin, possibly may even be soda glass.

So I am of the opinion that Stroma is earlier than this rose bowl design, I do not see much Stroma about, and I see these rose bowls absolutely everywhere. I do not think this rose bowl is Stroma. :P  Wrong colour, wrong design, wrong glass, wrong period.

(I might be wrong, though!)
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 10, 2011, 12:54:39 PM
It seems possible that if the thin uncased water set no. 4020 (which is in shown in Soot and Peat in the book wot I am reading at work  ;) ) is indeed Stroma, then the name was reused after this uncased stuff was discontinued. Mark cites the standard bud vase (4022) that everything thinks is WF and the water set as Stroma and designed by DB. The rose bowl is also shown in 1970s adverts in the book as Stroma. Its number is 4071, which is late than for the DB designs and indeed for some of the other Stroma designs (1977 catalogue pic). It therefore seems likely that the cased Stroma range was added to by Colin Terris.
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 10, 2011, 03:44:53 PM
 :thud: Struggling to take all that in, Christine - you said;

"It therefore seems likely that the cased Stroma range was added to by Colin Terris."

Do you mean that the cased Stroma range by Colin Terris was added to the ranges after the uncased Stroma by DO'B had been discontinued?

ie. that there are two discrete "Stroma" ranges, one by DO'B, and a later one by CT?

(I don't have the book yet!)
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 10, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
I struggled to write it.
Mark says the uncased water set (4020) you saw is Stroma and designed by DB.
He also says the WF style cased bud vase (4022) is Stroma and designed by DB.

The rose bowl (4071) is definitely Stroma, as there are catalogue pages and adverts showing it. Its number is too late for it to have been designed by DB, so CT is likely. There are also other Stroma items with numbers that fit the CT period.

So, has Mark got the name of the uncased range wrong or was the cased Stroma added to the range, or was the name reused?

The Stroma cased range was started by DB and added to by CT and possibly others such as Charles Orr. The last Caithness design number produced by DB was 4025.
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 10, 2011, 11:51:06 PM
Don't get too taken in by the numbers, they were not there from the start and applied almost randomly to earlier designs. I am 100% that the Rose Bowl is db not ct. Changes in the colours and method are not design but commercial issues. Also the CT numbers are not an indication of CT, many CG designers are thoroughly p'd about there designs becoming Colin Terris in the literature. CT designed a LOT of pieces but far from all. The other reason that seems to have upset the design history is that the departure of DB may have caused personal issues amongst CG management and in subsequent years his name become suppressed deliberately and mostly expunged from Company memory. That's life. Unravelling this all is a nightmare.

Im my experience, the worst source is first hand evidence from memory, second marketing, third colleagues. What is left of the paperwork cuts through all of that... sadly most of the paperwork has gone.
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 11, 2011, 12:02:41 AM
Forgot the fourth problem.. researchers. We often screw up too.

Although we can get it right, before the conference in 2010 I was roundly criticised for allowing Jacobite glasses to be on the schedule, damned English things! Several sceptics showed up to poo-poo the nonsense but all left convinced and Scottish pride was restored. And enhanced!
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: nigel benson on June 11, 2011, 10:12:20 AM


Frank said:

Quote
......many CG designers are thoroughly p'd about there designs becoming Colin Terris in the literature.

Care to elaborate? Who for instance??

Thanks, Nigel
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 11, 2011, 10:53:36 AM
DM is one that said so publicly others remarked to me as private confidences. I would not particularly want to start a witch hunt as this probably had more to do with management attitudes and corporate ownership than to any individuals. But it is a factor to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: nigel benson on June 11, 2011, 06:34:19 PM

No problem Frank, I quite understand. Maybe I need to discuss this privately with you as it could affect that critique ;) :o

THanks, Nigel
Title: Re: Blue side-angle-cut sphere - ID = Caithness
Post by: Frank on June 11, 2011, 07:11:06 PM
I think the problem stems from assumptions made about the CT coding system and nothing to do with the new book as this was an existing problem.