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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: svazzo on December 31, 2004, 01:38:57 AM

Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on December 31, 2004, 01:38:57 AM
Anyone know what kind of vase this is? or maker?

(http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/irridescentbark.jpg.w300h384.jpg)

Looks to me mold made, etched, then smoothed out along the ridges. It also has gold flecks in it. I believe it is old, since it has water residue on the bottom that has yellowed.
Any thoughts?
Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 05, 2005, 11:02:34 PM
I took some close up pics so you can see more of the texture.
(http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bark3.jpg.w300h225.jpg)

(http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bark2.jpg.w300h225.jpg)

(http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/irridescentbase.jpg.w300h225.jpg)

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: paradisetrader on January 10, 2005, 10:35:01 PM
I guess no-one knows Javier. What an extrodinary item - I've certainly never seen anything like it.

Etched ? The surface is satin texture ?

I would have thought Czech as they have a lot of experience with high quality molded but the gold dust suggests Murano. But then then Czechs were very experimental.

I think you do it a diservice calling it tree-trunk style - I would say more like a rouched drape / Austrian Blind. My guess late 40s / early 50s going by the style. What I call Hollywood style.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Ivo on January 10, 2005, 10:40:41 PM
I would guess Italian from the graceful gold surface finish.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 11, 2005, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: "paradisetrader"

I think you do it a diservice calling it tree-trunk style - I would say more like a rouched drape / Austrian Blind. My guess late 40s / early 50s going by the style. What I call Hollywood style.


Hello Peter,
Glad to hear from you again... I think you are so right about calling it Hollywood Style. It certainly has that rich drapery look. I just wish you could feel the texture. I could only describe it as what a cats tonque feels like, if you have cats :D

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 11, 2005, 01:32:10 AM
Quote from: "Ivo"
I would guess Italian from the graceful gold surface finish.


Hello Ivo!
So glad I have some feedback on the vase from you too....
I guess what has me confused about the vase is the texture and the shape. I haven't seen the shape or the surface described before on any catalogue or anywhere else for that matter, so Im not ready to call it a Murano piece yet. I have read about Corroso and Inciso surface textures, but this is totally different than those.

"Scavo" is a different technique altogether. I have a few pieces done in the technique and they are done with acid threatments, so the finish would be uneven.

I want to add, that when you look really closely at the texture, you can see the tiny lines that make the texture (which made me think machine in the first place). I guess it could be a type of "Inciso" technique, but I think the lines of Venini, Barbini and other "Inciso" pieces are deeper and large in width. I havent held one in person, but when looking at photos of this other examples you can see the lines pretty well, which would make them much wider.

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: glasswizard on January 11, 2005, 08:38:12 PM
Well this is certainly a piece that draws attention. I am trying to figure out the technique to achieve the surface texture. If it were of the overshot variety, the frit used must have been very fine. You say the feel of a cat's tongue, which makes me wonder if it has been sandblasted. However it was made it is a nice piece and someone will hopefully come up with the right answer. Terry in Iowa
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 11, 2005, 10:21:02 PM
Here's an even closer view. I don't think I can get any closer, lol.

http://www.svazzo.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/texture.jpg

Terry from IOWA...
Would sandblasting cause the same texture?
I am not familiar with sand blasted glass.

About the pic...
Not sure if it is ok to put a big picture like this one, so if it is too much, just let me know and I will edit it out and just put the link.

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: glasswizard on January 12, 2005, 09:32:11 AM
What a great closeup! There appears to be a definate pattern here. Something that would not be possible with sandblasting. Seems like the mystery deepens. Terry in Iowa
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Adam on January 12, 2005, 02:54:59 PM
It looks to me as though the mould itself was sandblasted or textured in some similar way.  Re another post, the term "sandblasted" is still widely used although no sand has been (or should not have been) used for half a century.

Adam D.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 12, 2005, 07:44:45 PM
Thanks everybody for the comments!
I guess like Terry from Iowa said  "...the mystery deepens."

On the "sandblasted" comment....
I think it would be extremely difficult to sandblast the piece while it is cooling without it changing the shape, or having pieces of sand be inbeded inside.
I would tend to agree with Adam, that if the piece was sandblasted, it was the mold itself, not the piece.

Going in a different direction with this...
I had mentioned the texture as "machine made" at first, and I still think this could be the case.... Does anyone know if Glass itself was worked in the same way that enamels and metal were etched for decoration? I know i have seen in the Antiques Road Show (US and UK) pieces of enamel, silver, gold, and metal-work finely etched, both manually and by machine. Mostly done for background decoration on enamels and clock faces....

Could this have been done to the mold of my vase?
I dont know how well the Glass industry and the Metal-work industries worked with each other during the turn of the century (1800-1950), so Im putting it out there.

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: paradisetrader on January 12, 2005, 09:45:56 PM
Javier
Are the white areas flash bounce or is it actually smoother on ridges and protrusions ?

Making the mold must have been something of an art form in itself !

A thought - an actual piece of material severely rouched within a basic form to make an initial wax mold - then a metal mold by lost wax.  These very very very  fine lines were in the weave of the material ?

Still doesnt explain the roughness I dont think ...or does it ? If the wax penetrated the weave to such and extent then tiny ridges ?.
....hmmmm
or would such minute detail be lost along with the wax ?
er am I going anywhere with this ? Help !
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 13, 2005, 12:11:47 AM
Hello Peter,
I really do not know myself if a wax casting could have such fine detail in order to then be produced into a metal mold. Maybe someone else can answer that for us.  

On the ridges, it is smoother on the high ridges, or better said, the long collumns of the vase, but only towards the middle of the vase.
That made me think that it is actually older, and was smoothed down from handling. Either that or it was smoothed out by the maker for a greater contrast to the piece. You can see that better on the 3rd photo I posted of the vase. The large detail is from the top of the vase, and any white in that is glare.

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Anonymous on January 13, 2005, 10:42:21 PM
Moulds are (typically) cast iron.  After machining, any finish one likes can be imposed on them by a man with a suitable set of hand tools and the necessary skills!!

Adam D.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 14, 2005, 08:15:14 PM
Thank you Adam for that information!

In your opinion, it is more likely the mold was sandblasted like you stated before, or that is was etched by hand?

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Adam on January 14, 2005, 10:24:01 PM
Javier - Let's be clear about this - I'm not a mould maker although I have seen a lot made and have of course been involved in their usage.  There is no doubt at all that the texture shown is on the mould and is nothing to do with the glassmaking itself.

Having said that, how the texture was done is purely an engineering problem.

My first reaction was sandblasting as you know but there must be all sorts of other ways it could have been done.  Shot peening (a bit like sandblasting but using metal particles), wire brushing and acid treatment all come to mind.  Nowadays lasers would probably come into it somewhere.

Anyway, as glass people are we not getting too deeply into engineering production methods?  Perhaps a metal-working message board might help if anyone were that keen to get a definitive answer?

Good luck if anyone takes that route!

Adam D.  (hopefully not Guest)
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 15, 2005, 12:28:06 AM
Hello Adam,
I was just asking for your opinion, since it was mentioned you would be best to answer the question.
Sorry if the talk has gone more towards the technical side of things. Thought it would be helpful, at least for me to understand where this vase came from. Maybe that would bring in some other opinions as to the maker or age, since so far we are all stumped.

Javier
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Glen on January 15, 2005, 10:40:10 AM
Maybe my experience with Fenton may add a little information. Maybe not. Apologies if my contribution below is of no interest.

Anyhow, a few years back Fenton made both a mould and a plunger for my two designs (for the WWWCGA - an international, internet Carnival Glass Club). When we got to the mould for the exterior pattern, we were specifically looking to get an effect similar to the beautiful stippling seen on some old Carnival pieces (it really enhances the iridescent effect). Fenton didn't actually have the right kit to do that - so one of their mould makers (Alan VanDyke) custom built a stipple punch for my design, so that it would give just the right effect.

If you're interested in seeing some photos etc about it all, you can see them here.
http://www.carnivalglass.org/pine/making.htm
The pattern with the stippling in is the Flowers of the World (exterior).

Glen
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Adam on January 15, 2005, 11:24:51 AM
Javier - No need whatever for apologies.  The technical side is where I (normally) thrive!  Perhaps I was simply dodging the straight answer re how the stippling was done, which was "I don't know, but there must be plenty of real engineers out there who do".

Please keep the technical queries coming.  Hopefully I can answer a lot of them!

Regards,

Adam D.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: Connie on January 15, 2005, 02:59:53 PM
This piece has really been bothering me  :wink:  I love a good mystery.

What about the possibility of it being double mould blown? The same technique used to make optic pattern pieces.  The piece is first blown into a spot mould to give the optic effect.  Then the piece is placed in a shape mould to achieve the desired finished shape.

The only problem with this theory is that I can't determine which came first the striations or the big bubbles or lumps  :?

I can envision a stippled mould  first that when blown out further would form striations but the striations look too uniform.  I would expect more distortion along the length of the lines in the low versus high areas.
Title: Help me Identify This TEXTURED Tree Trunk Vase
Post by: svazzo on January 15, 2005, 09:36:16 PM
Hi everyone!
Thanks for the last few  comments! I think we will get to an answer soon, lol, I hope!!!  :lol:

I think that if we can't get an specific answer, at least with all the comments we can find out what it is NOT.

On other news... Just last night I decided to email some contributors from the Antiques Road Show (since I found out that they will be in Tampa this year!), and come to find out at least 1 of them checks this site! I received 2 responces right away  :o  (thanks!). One letting me know to contact a second person, and the other (from this 2nd person) which mentioned that she thought it was an European piece. That was as far as I got, lol.

The 2 of them were also stumped. So I guess the mystery goes on. I didnt get an age reference, or hint as to the process from which it was made, so our guesses are what we have to go on for now.

I really appreciate all the help put forth so far :wink:
Thanks
Javier